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Soul Sucker HELP???

This is a discussion on Soul Sucker HELP??? within the Ball Python Morphs forums, part of the Ball Python Forum category; So I lucked out and came across a Pastel H.G. Woma from a very reliable source. After much reading and ...

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    Soul Sucker HELP???

    So I lucked out and came across a Pastel H.G. Woma from a very reliable source. After much reading and yes I have done all the searches on this forum and others as well I am still left confused on the Soul Sucker...

    To my knowledge all a Soul Sucker is combo wise is a H.G. Woma x Lesser???
    Now in all my reading and searching there is still doubt because of the un-knowledgeable people just typing what they heard from a bird.

    What I am looking for is anyone and everyone working with h.g. woma's to give there input. If you know the facts that is what I am looking for. If you are working on any projects headed in this direction please let me know what the truth is as far as the lies and stories go with this.


    What I believe as of now. Soul Sucker is a 1-4 h.g.woma x Lesser ANY lesser. The only reason I am stressing and need the truth from those in the know is for a purchase I may make soon. Hopefully picking up 3 lesser vanillas from a good friend around 500gr. Hopefully it is a vision others in this project have looked towards.

    Inferno is a pastel x h.g. woma x yellowbelly x granite N.E.R.D. I have seen one local in a collection without the granite gene and I think it is nicer looking and possibly throws away the need for granite at all. IMO
    Curious as to the validation of this because I also have a few yellowbellies lined up in his future...

    Now with all this said I have also read where the h.g. woma is thought to work much like a (het.platty) if you breed a platty daddy to a normal you end up with a 50%x50% split lesser's and het.platties. This is obviously not true since a Soul Sucker can replicate itself 1-4 to a normal or i this a lie as well? Is the Soul Sucker compatible with only certain Blu.E.L. genes. (i.e. Lesser)

    Thanks to all those working with these genes and any help you are willing to shoot my direction. Hope I wasn't rude I just dont need any input from birds dropping words...

    Peace, J

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    "There's snakes around here, always has been, always will be. No, no silly I wasn't talking about the GOVERNMENT this time."
    Me......

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    joe23 is offline Bush-League Sergeant Major BLBC Sergeant Major
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    i dont think many people will help u here cause not many work with them.


    for ME theres only one soulsucker- the original. i believe its a platinum hg woma.

    the others are lesser hg womas. but today they get sold as soulsucker. i dont think the lesser line is important. hg lesser doesnt exist for me without being a platinum in phenotype.


    on nerds site u see a combo called lesser hg woma- that are the souslcukers from today. and u see a combo lesser hg woma
    Last edited by joe23; 04-12-2012 at 10:30 PM.
    There is nothing so annoying as to have two people talking when you're busy interrupting.

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    Hey thanks JOE,
    Big time thanks, your the first person to break this down and it all make sense. First time I ever heard of the real and fake versions. To be honest though I like the fake from Crystal Palace. No dissrespect to them either by calling it a fake.

    However another question arises>>>> If the original Soul Sucker is in fact a (Patty, H.G. Woma) wouldn't that debunk all the theory of it being part of the BluE.L complex? If it can repeat itself?
    For instance a mystic potion (Mojave x Mystic) is allelic if bred out only mystics and mojaves are present in the offspring. If a (het.platty x Lesser) make the platty daddy and you get lessers and het.platties when bred out to a normal, where is there room for the H.G. Woma to rest on the same alleles? Doesn't this mean the platty daddy is only allelic? You cant make a (Super fire, Vanilla) They are allelic as well so you in turn only produce vanilla creams. Now I have heard that the "fake soul sucker" will replicate itself 1-4 to a normal. Doesn't this debunk the fact that it is allelic or even part of the blue complex? It clearly represents itself much more like a double co-dom mutation. (i.e. bumblebee, pewter and the like.

    Thanks again Joe. Your the man for breaking it down for me. Hopefully you can help with these last few questions.
    I think I am deff. gonna take a swing at pastel vanilla Soul Suckers later next year. I know they will be of the "fake Soul sucker lineage" but I think the outcome will still be something to see.

    peace, J
    "There's snakes around here, always has been, always will be. No, no silly I wasn't talking about the GOVERNMENT this time."
    Me......

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    Here is a question I have been pondering. Why does the picture of an abult soul sucker on World of Ball Pythons have what looks to be the same picture of this "fake" or lesser hg woma one from Crystal Palace - execpt with the word NERD imbedded into the picture?

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    joe23 is offline Bush-League Sergeant Major BLBC Sergeant Major
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    this is all just my theory. if u talk to other persons they might see it completely different.


    i dont think the hg woma belongs to the BEL complex.

    my theory is that only the first wildcaught hg woma carried a gene which acts similar to the one of the platinum. i call it het daddy from now so u understand what i mean. i dont neccessarly think its the same gene, but i think it might work similar.


    so the first hg woma was het daddy. bred to a lesser u get a part lesser hg womas and a small part of platty hg womas- everything that doesnt contain lesser has a 50% chance to carry the het daddy gene.

    when u breed such a 2.nd generation hg woma poss het daddy to a normal the babies have a 25% chance of carring the hidden gene. from each generation the chance is lower. so that i doubt today- 10 years later hg womas carry the gene. the chance is really really small to create a real soulsucker from a 2011 or 2010 etc hg woma.


    since this was the only real soulsucker (as far as i know, cause all following animals marketed as soulsucker didnt look like the real one), i doubt kevin hit the odds again.


    so yeah- basically i dont think the hg woma belongs in the BEL complex, nore do i believe theyre allelic.


    when u breed a platinum to an enchi is everything that isnt a lesser is a het daddy. breed such an enchi het daddy to a lesser or butter and ull have a chance to create the enchi platinum.

    the same way it worked with the real hg woma.

    maybe noah bred the hg woma to a platinum and sold it afterwards to kevin. he proved a lot of morphs before he sold em. he did it with the lesser and with the champagne for sure, so i dont think this is to far streched- although this is just a simple idea. maybe it was found this way in the wild.

    people breed snakes and new stuff pops out all the time.


    again- this is all just my THEORY- i dont have any prove for this, nore do i claim this is hundert percent correct. its just based on what ive seen so far- not out of actuall breeding results i made.

    other very knowledgeable persons which are far better with genetics then i, have different ideas.


    it would be cool if someone will prove my theory though. ud just have to take a "these days soulsucker" and breed it to a het daddy or platinum and with some luck hit the odds- i think the animal coming from this would resamble the real soulsucker.
    Last edited by joe23; 04-13-2012 at 04:27 PM.
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    joe23 is offline Bush-League Sergeant Major BLBC Sergeant Major
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    Quote Originally Posted by fountaincityreptiles View Post
    Here is a question I have been pondering. Why does the picture of an abult soul sucker on World of Ball Pythons have what looks to be the same picture of this "fake" or lesser hg woma one from Crystal Palace - execpt with the word NERD imbedded into the picture?
    2 things- first because these get called soulsuckers these days, cause he probably couldnt reproduce the real one.

    and second: crystal palace is the european distributor for NERD. so i guess NERD send them the snake and they put it up for sale on their page with their watermark.


    however- cpr made their own in 2010- this pictrue is older though.
    There is nothing so annoying as to have two people talking when you're busy interrupting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwistedEvolution View Post
    Hey thanks JOE,
    Big time thanks, your the first person to break this down and it all make sense. First time I ever heard of the real and fake versions. To be honest though I like the fake from Crystal Palace. No dissrespect to them either by calling it a fake.

    However another question arises>>>> If the original Soul Sucker is in fact a (Patty, H.G. Woma) wouldn't that debunk all the theory of it being part of the BluE.L complex? If it can repeat itself?
    For instance a mystic potion (Mojave x Mystic) is allelic if bred out only mystics and mojaves are present in the offspring. If a (het.platty x Lesser) make the platty daddy and you get lessers and het.platties when bred out to a normal, where is there room for the H.G. Woma to rest on the same alleles? Doesn't this mean the platty daddy is only allelic? You cant make a (Super fire, Vanilla) They are allelic as well so you in turn only produce vanilla creams. Now I have heard that the "fake soul sucker" will replicate itself 1-4 to a normal. Doesn't this debunk the fact that it is allelic or even part of the blue complex? It clearly represents itself much more like a double co-dom mutation. (i.e. bumblebee, pewter and the like.

    Thanks again Joe. Your the man for breaking it down for me. Hopefully you can help with these last few questions.
    I think I am deff. gonna take a swing at pastel vanilla Soul Suckers later next year. I know they will be of the "fake Soul sucker lineage" but I think the outcome will still be something to see.

    peace, J
    since when has hg woma ever been part of the BlueEL complex? i have never heard anyone say that

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    Well now THAT really is what I was wondering. If there is a "line" of hg lessers that make soul suckers, then there would be more than one picture out there of other animals that have grown up to look like that first one.

    Something else that has been causing me to wonder is something Kevin says on this video. He identifies one of the snakes that seems to me to look the same as lesser x hg woma and says this: "This is our classic soul sucker. It only takes one soul to make that."

    I wonder what he means by "one soul." it is at 7:05 in the video

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDs7x...4cDIH-DBqTI%3D[/ame]

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    ok it looks like that didn't work. it is in the NERD 2011 part 3 video[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDs7x...4cDIH-DBqTI%3D"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDs7x...4cDIH-DBqTI%3D[/ame]

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    Quote Originally Posted by BAM_Reptiles View Post
    since when has hg woma ever been part of the BlueEL complex? i have never heard anyone say that
    I remember reading a while back an old thread stating at the time it was assumed to be allelic with the blueEL complex. Not sure on what forum but if I can find such thread I will gladly post it. Anyway all I was curious is to the validity of this. Has it been proven. For the most part apparently not because the "fake" soul sucker can readily repeat itself to a normal 1-4. That's all.
    "There's snakes around here, always has been, always will be. No, no silly I wasn't talking about the GOVERNMENT this time."
    Me......

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    Quote Originally Posted by BAM_Reptiles View Post
    since when has hg woma ever been part of the BlueEL complex? i have never heard anyone say that
    I think it is because the hg woma reacts with both the lesser and the mojave to make animals similar looking either to a platty daddy or a crystal.

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    a pastel reacts with them too, doesn't mean its on the same allele. i don't see any similarity in the way hg woma and the genes of that complex react. ASIDE from the fact it has already been proven that isn't because lesser hg woma can reproduce themselves...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BAM_Reptiles View Post
    a pastel reacts with them too, doesn't mean its on the same allele. i don't see any similarity in the way hg woma and the genes of that complex react. ASIDE from the fact it has already been proven that isn't because lesser hg woma can reproduce themselves...
    That is a really good point! - about them reproducing themselves.

    On a slightly different subject, the deleted scenes of Herpers II has Kevin with a clutch of super cinnys that he says were made by hg woma x cinny.

    I don't know anything more than that. I just find the whole mess to be fun - the amount of monkey wrenches I believe to be waiting to fall into the mess that already exists.

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    i wunna say i have heard of that happening with cinnies before. i know for a fact it happens with motley boas (the boa equivalent of cinny/super cinnies)

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    joe23 is offline Bush-League Sergeant Major BLBC Sergeant Major
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    to break it down again:

    a these days soulsucker reproduces itself like any other non allelic combo (like the bumblebee for example)

    breed a these days SS to a normal and 25% of the babies will be these days SS again.

    when u breed the original soulsucker to a normal (assuming my theory is right and it is a platinum hg woma), ud get 1 in 4 these days soulsucker, 1 in 4 lesser, 1 in 4 hg woma het daddy and 1 in 4 het daddy. (im using het daddy as phrase again- it doesnt have to be exactly the same gene)

    so the original SS cant reproduce itself. thats probably the reason why kevin back then always said the soulsucker dont reproduces itself when breed to normals. meanwhile he says its a 1 in 4 combo but thats meant for the these days soulsuckers.

    although they seem to change again too. in one video asks raphy kevin what the SS is, and kevin answers hg lesser hg woma and sometimes yb, granite, pastel etc- so the term soulsucker is always changing as it seems.


    assuming im right ud need a het daddy, a lesser or a platinum and breed it to the real soulsucker- then uve a chance at getting a new real soulsucker. or u take a these days soulsucker and breed it to a het daddy (the real het daddy this time)- i guess the animal coming from this could look similar to the original SS


    so what im basically trying to say: i think the first real hg woma carried indeed a hidden gene. most others def dont. a these days hg woma is not a mystical morph which carries hidden genes that has more power then most others- its a morph like all others too- it just reacts cool with the lesser.

    other morphs react cool with others too- het red and black pastel for example- or enchi and granite, or GHI and mojave etc etc

    an inferno doesnt look so crazy because of the hg woma- its just a pattern morph there. its more the combination of pastel yb and granite plus the hg woma.

    heres a het red pastel yb and a mocha citrus pastel yb:





    add the granite and uve snakes which look similar to the inferno- so theres nothing magical about this morph- its just a cool pattern morph which reacts with a lesser in a cool way, with a lethal super form.


    as far as the super cinni thing goes:

    BAM is right- it happens sometimes with the cinni. here is a thread about a cinni which was breed to a bumblebee- the first year it created a super cinni and the next year it produced a silver bullet.

    it happens a lot with cinnis, but all other co dom morphs can do that too.

    i know that it happend with a lesser for example. another breeding i remember was made by mc serpenti from italy. they bred a wc axanthic to a super mojave and got an axanthic paradox super mojave.


    so theres nothing magically here too- if u want ill search the link- there are two very knowledgable guys which explain the phenomenon of getting the visual homozygous version by using just one heterozygous animal.
    There is nothing so annoying as to have two people talking when you're busy interrupting.

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    joe, i think you pretty much got it right on. although i have to disagree about the original hg woma having a real hidden gene. if that were the case i'm sure some of them would still have it lingering around. id bet the first soul sucker was a platinum hg woma, or even just extreme natural variability

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    yea I think the HG woma is just a name that stuck. You could probably just as easily call a "special" a hidden gene or a yellow belly a hidden gene. However I would disagree that the inferno line is anything less than spectacular as a result of whatever the morph is doing. I did see that citrus mocha yellowbelly thing at Tinley Park, and stopped in my tracks when i saw it. It is magnificent, however the HG woma is a morph that consistently makes flame jobs when matched with different combos that are the most insane flame jobs that (exist in my opinion) - and there are many different examples of them that all need that critical ingredient. Even after seeing the citrus mocha yellowbelly in person, i was mostly thinking of how much more insane it would be to add the HG woma to that one as well. :P

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    [quote=joe23;717615]i dont think many people will help u here cause not many work with them.


    for ME theres only one soulsucker- the original. i believe its a platinum hg woma.

    the others are lesser hg womas. but today they get sold as soulsucker. i dont think the lesser line is important. hg lesser doesnt exist for me without being a platinum in phenotype.


    on nerds site u see a combo called lesser hg woma- that are the souslcukers from today. and u see a combo lesser hg woma

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    joe23 is offline Bush-League Sergeant Major BLBC Sergeant Major
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    yep- i know the queen belinda stroy, but to me that snake i posted there is the original soulsucker:

    http://newenglandreptile.com/nerd/in...ul-sucker.html

    look at it- its the same snake.

    this is a lesser hg woma pastel:

    http://newenglandreptile.com/nerd/in...on-pastel.html



    a lesser hg woma pastel yb and probably granite is the red spectrum. at least thats what ive been told by andy a few years ago.




    theyre all striped with a potion like pattern- the soulsucker is the only one which looks different to me.


    and ive never said that the hg woma doesnt make unique stuff- just that theres nothing special or hidden or mystical about it.

    make a mocha super pastel yb granite fader and it would look similar to the fader superferno. hg woma works just as a pattern gene there- nothing hidden nothing special- thats all im saying.

    of course its a cool gene which makes cool stuff- never said anything against that.
    There is nothing so annoying as to have two people talking when you're busy interrupting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe23 View Post


    and ive never said that the hg woma doesnt make unique stuff- just that theres nothing special or hidden or mystical about it.
    Ok so why if there's nothing "special" about them does the Soul Sucker exist? Breed a Woma to a Lesser and what do you get? Is it a SS? Heck, is it even close to it? nope.
    And again.... that first picture you posted, not the original Soul Sucker.

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    It seems to me the point is the the "Hidden Gene" Woma is not a Woma, it is its own thing and therefore nothing is "Hidden". It has a pattern similar to a Woma, but as you said yourself can be separated from a Woma when side by side. I do not think he was saying that a regular Woma and a Lesser will make a Soul Sucker.

    Look what the Enchi does to some combos, especially with the Champagne, and no one is claiming a "hidden" gene.

    I think Hidden Gene Woma is a horrible name, but it is what it is. I think the bigger confusion and issue is with "Hidden Gene" Lessers.
    Dave Jenkins

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    Raphael: It's not the question what Hidden gene woma's do, we have all seen that and it's a beautiful thing....

    The big question for me is: Do we need a "hidden gene" Lesser to make Soul Sucker? or does any Lesser or butter do the same??

    It's very confusing because we read different things everywhere even from Kevin himself.....
    I know Kevins Lesser comes from a Queen Belinda.....but is there anybody who has done Hidden gene Woma X Butter or normal Lesser??

    I wish Kevin would come here to answer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saskia View Post
    Raphael: It's not the question what Hidden gene woma's do, we have all seen that and it's a beautiful thing....

    The big question for me is: Do we need a "hidden gene" Lesser to make Soul Sucker? or does any Lesser or butter do the same??

    It's very confusing because we read different things everywhere even from Kevin himself.....
    I know Kevins Lesser comes from a Queen Belinda.....but is there anybody who has done Hidden gene Woma X Butter or normal Lesser??

    I wish Kevin would come here to answer
    Ahh ok. Now that's an argument he and I have once in a while. Problem is all his lessers came from the same male so he's never made one with any other type of lesser. I say a lesser is a lesser is a lesser and should make them when mixed with hg woma. But he hasn't done it himself to be able to say.
    He knows what he used when making them so that's what he can say.
    Now the reason u can pick them apart from a regular woma is because there's something extra there, something special. Weather it's hidden or not (I agree, the name is confusing) its still something more.
    Let me see if I can get him to stop by and answer some questions. He's super busy with breeding, the book and working on the new national herp society but I'll try.

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    Or maybe someone else can chime in that's done it with another line of lesser or butter.

    I've seen the hg woma x Mojave and before I knew what it was I said "oh, that's a nice looking lesser"
    But I personally believe it would work with any lesser.

    Here's another thing to think about, I've seen Kevin make pearls from hg woma to hg woma clutch mate (non hg woma) sooo.... How did that happen?
    I believe the hidden part got passed on to that clutch mate and made the pearl when bred to any other hg woma or hg woma clutch mate that also has it.
    Is hidden gene the right terminology? Probably not. But thats what he came up with when he started doing these things and like many names simply stuck.
    Last edited by maballs.net; 04-17-2012 at 06:18 AM.

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    Hahaha, I contacted you before on Facebook because I can't get Kevin to get on the phone LOL
    You were very helpful to me than

    But in the meantime I get letters from people because I'm breeding a soul sucker male and I thought that the lessers coming from him should be "hidden gene" lessers, because Kevin is speaking about 2 hidden genes combined.......
    And I see that Kevins Price is higher for those Lessers......

    But people are telling me I would be a scammer if I would price those Lessers higher than a normal Lesser.......

    At the same time, if it's just a normal Lesser....why did I pay that BIG price for a Soulsucker Male ....If this is the case it was a better investment to just buy a Hidden gene Woma......

    You have to understand that this was a very big investment for me....and now I'm all confused....not angry though...

    Of course the main reason to know for me is: I don't want to "scam" my costumers...but on the other hand...I don't want to sell myself short.....

    So I hope you understand where I come from.

    Again I'm very thankful for your help Raphael

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    Saskia is offline Bush-League Sergeant BLBC Sergeant
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    Here is a copy of the NERD website:

    Print
    View full size
    This girl is HOT!
    More details

    $17,500.00 Shipped

    Reference : fss1

    Quantity :



    MORE INFO
    INQUIRE
    Any Soul Sucker is a stand out, this girl stands out amongst anything! Full stripe with amazing color! This is still one of our favorite combos at NERD!

    Here is the reaction of two hidden genes combined.
    This mutation offers so much potential and it reproduces itself and makes some KILLER STUFF! The Soul Sucker combos are super rare and exciting to say the least. If you don't know what this combo is take a look at some of the stuff we have made with these genes!


    So if the case here is you can use a normal Lesser....why does it say here: TWO HIDDEN GENES COMBINED ???

    Of course I'm asking in general and Kevin...I'm thankful that you are here to talk to us Raphael, so please don't be offended by my posts...it's of course not personal to you

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    Saskia is offline Bush-League Sergeant BLBC Sergeant
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    Last note, I'm not mad or anything, I just confused

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    I understand man, no worries. I will try to get either Kevin or Andy to stop by here to clear this up once and for all.
    Now saying that a hg woma would be a better investment is the same as saying a spark is a better investment that a puma. How much value can YB really add. But I would much rather look at a puma every day in my racks than a spark

    Again, I understand where you're coming from but we are at the point where ONLY Kevin or Andy can really clear this up.

    Wish I could help more

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    Saskia is offline Bush-League Sergeant BLBC Sergeant
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    I'm not a man, I'm a woman

    Thanks for the reply!
    Last edited by Saskia; 04-17-2012 at 11:28 AM.

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    Saskia is offline Bush-League Sergeant BLBC Sergeant
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    Quote Originally Posted by maballs.net View Post
    Now saying that a hg woma would be a better investment is the same as saying a spark is a better investment that a puma. How much value can YB really add. But I would much rather look at a puma every day in my racks than a spark

    Wish I could help more
    I love the Soul Sucker so don't understand me wrong but 4K for a hidden gene woma or the Soul sucker price...thats a lot of difference....

    Here is Europe we have an economic crises too...I'm a single mom trying to keep my head up and the last thing I need is angry customers in a year or so for selling Hidden gene Lessers....witch they are not....(IF this is the case here )..
    And with only the Hidden Gene Woma I could have made my own Soulsucker with the Lesser breeder females I've got here....but I was told you need a Hidden Gene Lesser to make the Soulsucker.....

    But we will wait and see, hoping to get some answers

    Greets,
    Saskia

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    joe23 is offline Bush-League Sergeant Major BLBC Sergeant Major
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    Quote Originally Posted by maballs.net View Post
    Ok so why if there's nothing "special" about them does the Soul Sucker exist? Breed a Woma to a Lesser and what do you get? Is it a SS? Heck, is it even close to it? nope.
    And again.... that first picture you posted, not the original Soul Sucker.
    how is that not the real soulsucker?

    either ure wrong or the snake kevin posted on his site as soulsucker is wrong because IT IS the same snake. look at it- scale for scale- its the same snake.

    heres the pic i posted (made by sean from exotics by nature)



    heres the second pic as adult:



    and this is the soulsucker from kevins homepage as baby:



    http://newenglandreptile.com/nerd/in...ul-sucker.html


    its 100% the same snake. look at its neck and head- same pattern. look at the back patterns- same snake.

    please- take a second and do it and dont just tell me its not the same snake again.
    Last edited by joe23; 04-17-2012 at 12:02 PM.
    There is nothing so annoying as to have two people talking when you're busy interrupting.

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    the only problem with any of those theories i have is: if those lessers or hg womas had to actually have some "hidden gene" which iirc kevin has said multiple times that the womas DO NOT have a hidden gene and that they are just their own single gene morph, then how is it that it has been passed every time to every hg woma and lesser when it should be a 50/50?

    what makes more sense is that at least with the case of the hg woma to sib making a pearl, that something along the lines of the super cinny thing happened. so basically the animal probably got the hg woma gene and no other gene, which results in the homozygous phenotype

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    joe23 is offline Bush-League Sergeant Major BLBC Sergeant Major
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    as far as the hidden gene lesser thing goes, as i said before i dont believe lessers can carry a hidden gene without being a platinum in phenotype.


    if i remember correct the breeding kevin got his founding lesser from was a platinum x light colored lesser called queen belinda. after what we know today the founding snake he got could have either been a platinum or a lesser- maybe a lighter colored lesser than normal (rdr has videos up from his "smokin lessers").


    if i were in saskias shoes i wouldnt sell the lessers from a ss breeding as hidden gene lessers for more money.


    and i doubt ull only get soulsuckers from breeding a hg woma to a hg nerd line lesser.

    i think hg woma and lesser (and probably butter) react in a really cool and unique way (much like the ghi and mojave), but i think the result will be the same wether u use nerd line, or rdr line or sgr line or butters...
    There is nothing so annoying as to have two people talking when you're busy interrupting.

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    Scott Austin is offline Bush-League Pvt 1st Class BLBC Private First Class
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    Joe23

    What makes you think that whatever hidden gene Kevin is working with is the same hidden gene Ralph has in his platinums???
    Could it be that this queen Belinda thing has it's own twist along with it??
    Scott Austin
    scottaustinreptiles.com

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    joe23 is offline Bush-League Sergeant Major BLBC Sergeant Major
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Austin View Post
    Joe23

    What makes you think that whatever hidden gene Kevin is working with is the same hidden gene Ralph has in his platinums???
    Could it be that this queen Belinda thing has it's own twist along with it??
    thats a good question. the answer is relativly simple- kevin himselfs says it multiple times in interviews. for example in his interview on the reptile radio show

    plus- its the only hidden gene we know in lessers (although meanwhile its clear that theres nothing hidden about- just a normal co dominant gene, which even might have a visual marker, cause ralph picked a CH possible het daddy and proved it out, because "it has had the look")

    but of course ure correct- new things pop up all the time and it could be something different in theory

    ive got a question too: when u look at the picture i posted and the one labeld as "lesser hg woma
    Last edited by joe23; 04-17-2012 at 06:11 PM.
    There is nothing so annoying as to have two people talking when you're busy interrupting.

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    Looks like I'm going to clear this up the best way I know how. With a video!

    One thing that gets me (even though I'm of the club that believes any lesser when bred to hg woma makes a soul sucker) is that with a gene that's been around for so long why can't someone just tell us if they've made one with a lesser that didn't come from NERD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maballs.net View Post
    Looks like I'm going to clear this up the best way I know how. With a video!

    One thing that gets me (even though I'm of the club that believes any lesser when bred to hg woma makes a soul sucker) is that with a gene that's been around for so long why can't someone just tell us if they've made one with a lesser that didn't come from NERD.
    BHB made this one without Kevins Lessers. I know a few other people that have made them from other lines.

    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=BHB+P...69&tx=82&ty=64
    Nick & Justin Sloan
    www.SloanReptiles.net

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    [QUOTE=SloanReptiles;719410]BHB made this one without Kevins Lessers. I know a few other people that have made them from other lines.

    But Brian has Lessers from Noah. How do we know what line of lesser he used?

    This is a fascinating thread. I was under the impression that it had to be a lesser from Africa, one from Queen Belinda. I was also thinking that the "hidden gene" in the lesser was another gene and not the platty gene.

    I am breeding my HGW/yb to an African line pastel lesser this year.

    I am not the best photographer and getting the right colors is tough.

    Here are some pictures of the female along with an RDR pastel lesser and a pastel lesser I produced from the African lesser. I can defiantly see a difference in the African pastel lesser. The color is much better. The yellow just pops out.

    I was always curious if it was a great line of pastel or maybe the "hidden gene" makes the yellow pop out like it does.

    left-African Pastel Lesser right-RDR pastel lesser lower-pastel lesser I produced from the African pastel lesser


    Here are some other snake I produced from the African pastel lesser
    Upper left-rdr pastel lesser upper right-african pastel lesser also from picture above lower left-super pastel YB lower right-african pastel lesser YB


    I produced all the snakes except the pastel lesser above from my African pastel lesser.

    I defiantly see something different in the African produced stuff.
    Marshall Van Thorre
    NoCo Reptiles
    www.nocoreptiles.com

  40. #39
    maballs.net's Avatar
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    Saskia, who did you buy yor Soul Sucker from? If u don't mind me asking

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    Saskia is offline Bush-League Sergeant BLBC Sergeant
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    Hi Raphael,

    From Craig (The urban R.) and he got it from Darren if I'm not mistaking.
    So I think it comes from Nerd originally since Darren is a distributor for Nerd here in Europe.

    So he already travelled a lot, hahaha but he's here to stay now
    Last edited by Saskia; 04-18-2012 at 02:50 AM.

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    Saskia is offline Bush-League Sergeant BLBC Sergeant
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    Quote Originally Posted by maballs.net View Post
    Looks like I'm going to clear this up the best way I know how. With a video!

    One thing that gets me (even though I'm of the club that believes any lesser when bred to hg woma makes a soul sucker) is that with a gene that's been around for so long why can't someone just tell us if they've made one with a lesser that didn't come from NERD.
    I don't believe that not all off the Bell complex have been tested...like Butter, Russo etc. etc.....

    I will have to wait to hatch a Hidden gene Woma from the Soul Sucker this year, than I will hold it back and hopefully I can try all of this next year

    Edit: I see that Phantom has been used and it don't seem to react with Phantom I see.....
    Last edited by Saskia; 04-18-2012 at 03:16 AM.

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    joe23 is offline Bush-League Sergeant Major BLBC Sergeant Major
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    Quote Originally Posted by maballs.net View Post
    Looks like I'm going to clear this up the best way I know how. With a video!

    One thing that gets me (even though I'm of the club that believes any lesser when bred to hg woma makes a soul sucker) is that with a gene that's been around for so long why can't someone just tell us if they've made one with a lesser that didn't come from NERD.

    as far as ive heard to (correct me when im wrong) did get kevin his lesser from rdr and rdr got them from noah- so in theory theyre all from the same source.

    cpr should have made soulsuckers with rdr line lessers too (ill write darren an email- maybe hell chime in here).


    then as the sloans mentioned is there BHB (if i remember that correct did they breed an inferno to lessers)



    but this year we will see a few more being produced i guess. i know a handful of people breeding their hg woma to a lesser, lesser combo or BEL.
    Last edited by joe23; 04-18-2012 at 12:00 PM.
    There is nothing so annoying as to have two people talking when you're busy interrupting.

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    MikeDE is offline Bush-League Pvt 1st Class BLBC Private First Class
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    Hoped we could of had some answers on this but our regular Lesser bred by our HGW GR YB laid 4 slugs and 2 eggs. 1 egg has gone bad, the other is not looking real good.

    We do have a so called HG Lesser female but she will not be bred until next year. I personally do not think there is any HG Lesser, just lessers/Butters.

    I think Keo had 2 SoulSuckers last season, I asked him in the thread but did not get a reaponse about what type Lesser was used.

    I know Kevin has mentioned that the HG Leseer when bred to something, all Lesser are HG.

    I am in Joe's camp that the one different looking Soulsucker may be a Platty Daddy SoulSucker.

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    No Joe, Kevins Lesser came directly from Africa not from RDR.
    Keo was making Soul suckers from a soul sucker not by making the combo with the individual parts.
    Spoke to Kevin at length about this today in person and got some footage of him answering what he knows. I will try to edit it and post it as soon as possible.
    Also took a bunch of pics of kevins Lessers and Soul suckers so you can get an idea of how much they can vary.

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    joe23 is offline Bush-League Sergeant Major BLBC Sergeant Major
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    Quote Originally Posted by maballs.net View Post
    No Joe, Kevins Lesser came directly from Africa not from RDR.
    Keo was making Soul suckers from a soul sucker not by making the combo with the individual parts.
    Spoke to Kevin at length about this today in person and got some footage of him answering what he knows. I will try to edit it and post it as soon as possible.
    Also took a bunch of pics of kevins Lessers and Soul suckers so you can get an idea of how much they can vary.
    do u know if they came from noah then?
    There is nothing so annoying as to have two people talking when you're busy interrupting.

  47. #46
    maballs.net's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe23 View Post
    do u know if they came from noah then?
    yes. From Noah breeding a platy daddy to a queen belinda

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    These pictures were taken by me today. I confirmed with each one of these on their labels that they are what I'm displaying them here as (Plain NERD line Lessers and Plain Soul Suckers)
    I took pics of some combos but won't post them here since that's not what this thread is about.

    Some of NERDs Lessers






    Some of NERDs Soul Suckers (not combos) notice the variation













    You can't make them all look the same, they vary from one to the next. Some have a full stripe, others don't. That last one is just weird but still "just" a SS. So the idea that that one picture (which Kevin confirmed was not the first one he ever made) is something other than a regular HG Woma x NERD Lesser is ridiculous.
    (I'm working on the video now but wanted to get these up real quick)
    Last edited by maballs.net; 04-18-2012 at 09:29 PM.

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    Saskia is offline Bush-League Sergeant BLBC Sergeant
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    Thanks for the pics....can't wait to see the video

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    Ok here it is.
    Now i can't say I agree 100% with everything he's saying but I asked the questions and here are his answers (no edits)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQtm37n_NE"]Soul Suckers Explained (NERD) - YouTube[/ame]

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    Saskia is offline Bush-League Sergeant BLBC Sergeant
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    Thanks a lot Raphael, that was what I wanted to know...what to call the Lessers...It will be Hidden gene lessers...
    I can't wait to see the Lesser hidden gene baby's and if I see any difference with my other Lesser offspring.

    Here a photo of my beautiful SS Male:

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