Ok guys this is an account that started in the early part of 09. I wanted a logo designed for Royal Morphz and I commissioned Ashley (Hagar) to design what now has been the face of Royal Morphz. The Piedbald BP drawing with the glowing red text is what I have been branding as Royal Morphz since day one. She started on my logo but couldn’t finish it because of not knowing how a piece of software ran.

This is where I was introduced to Andrew Hager (Ceradigital.com on most forums). He took over and pretty much I never dealt with Ashley directly again. He brought up that my logo would look nice on a business card (which is something I wanted as well) so he shot me over the file to get to the printer.

We started what I would consider a friendship, he advised me on photography equipment and I picked up quite a bit of info from him. Well one day I brought up the idea of a website, I mean I had the logo and the snakes why not get a website going. He said he knew how to build websites and started figuring out what we wanted. The website was to be done for $350 dollars which I offered to pay a portion up front, but he declined. I just figured we might work it out in trade or something. He set out on working on it. I never really saw anything that showed me he was doing any work on it, but I was excited. Around the time I was getting ready to attend the NARBC show in Anaheim he let me know the site would be up and running by 9-20-09.

Now fast forward to 10-10-09 and he finally got me a screen shot I would estimate we started the talks in maybe May 09 about the website. So with a screen shot there I went out and bought my hosting for the Site. Now he had explained that he had some software that would allow me to have an online store. Now I have to admit this sounded really cool in theory, but once he started showing me about it there was one major flaw. I didn’t think anyone would want to put there credit card info into a new BP breeders new website. So with that said I did ask him to scrap that for a traditional available page.

One day Andrew asked me to send them money toward the site so he and Ashley could put some money down on a Ruppel line Super Pastel. I didn’t have the funds in paypal and was getting ready for a show and I told him if a sale went through I would paypal it over to them. It didn’t go through and I told him up front I was sorry but I didn’t have the money. He said ok and then I notice that the site is down and in its place was a nice construction page. I didn’t question him on this and it was set up that he call me on Monday 11-09-09 to walk me through the available page layout and teach me how to add and delete ads. Come Wednesday and I hadn’t heard from him I went with a different designer.

Within about 60 hours I had RoyalMorphz.com up and running. Now I post up a few good guy posts for the Designer and on one of the forums (I will link it at the bottom of this post) Andrew posted he thought I stole his design for the website. Now I will tell you that the new designer just used what I gave him he did not know that I didn’t own the website design. When I changed the design then the topic with Andrew changed. Now I had stolen the logo that I bought previously, apparently I just bought the logo for use on my business cards??????? I mean who would have thought I would have had to buy my logo each time I chose to use it. Now this is where I must admit ignorance, I didn’t know that there were files that I should have requested when I got the original logo design. Now this is my fault in of it’s own.

Andrew went on to complain that I misused a rendering of my logo, which is an outline of my Piedbald BP logo. So I removed it now lets count I have changed the website design and now taken off an outline of MY logo. Then he states in the linked thread that I can take the logo and do whatever I want with it (it’s my logo of course I will use it as I see fit). That neither one of us has paperwork on the matter and its basically a dead subject and then its back to my website design is a rip off again. So I don’t know what to do about this so I stop posting for the most part.

I take a few days off cool down a bit and PM him saying hey we are adults and need to work this out. So just to see what he wanted for the files that so far everyone I’ve spoken to said I should have gotten in the first place. No response to that then out of the blue today 11-18-09 I get a call from Andrew. I answer because I want this over with, he says that he has spoken with a copyright law firm and they advised him that we can work it out or take it to court I told him I wanted to work it out and find a number that they wanted for the work. A few hours later I get a call and he has a number but also Ashley wants a public apology (for what I don’t know) along with $500 dollars for the files. Now I almost choked, $500 dollars for logo files I had already paid for. I mean I was thinking $100 bucks, the whole website was only supposed to cost $350 lol. Well I told him that was out of the question as I could get another logo drawn up for around 200 bucks.

We kicked a few more options before saying you know what we don’t want the files. Then they bring up a lawyer again, now I don’t know if Andrew knows me very well but my father was a lawyer and well before he passed he made sure all of us kids went to college so there are a few more lawyers in the family. If I know one thing when you are threatened with a lawsuit you quit talking right then I had ignored this point earlier, this time I was not. I told Andrew that I wanted my logo to stay as is and for him to have his attorney contact us.

Now I ask you this I am on these boards a lot if anything would let you know I posted what would it be I think it would be MY logo. This is just a information thread and should be looked at as such. So what do you guys think is the logo mine to use or should I have buy it over and over again.

Hi,

I was actually going to write a big post but instead I will just say that logo should be yours. From what I read I would never do business with that guy. He is way over the top about his wife's artwork. Just let it go.....You got paid be happy. In my opinion it appears to be something deeper than the logo. Work it out. You both have suffered from your public bantering.

Regards,
Bill :rebel:

Thank you for your input the whole point for any of the threads I posts is to show that Andrew and Ashley knowingly didn't say that I couldnt use said logo for my business I mean its on my business card. Then because of a fall out on a botched website all this comes up I have been using the signature banners and business card for about 8 months. Never has this come up and I also didnt change the logo to make my website logo other than the text saying Tim Johnson, my email and my numbers it is exactly as my business card so I didnt change it. As far as that is concerned I think that I am in the realm of reason as long as I dont change the way th Pied logo looks.

My two cents -

The logo sounds like a misunderstanding. Andrew/Ashley thought you were just buying the business card design, while you did not. Since they were unclear about this and did not make fully clear this part of the purchase, the logo is yours.

Now, the website bit. If the following happened to me:
1) asked to build a website
2) had already spent considerable time on it
3) had been paid nothing for what work I had done
4) found the website was done by someone else using my design
5) had received no prior indication that the client was unhappy or intending to find someone else
I would be pretty pissed, and I think understandably so. Tim, I think you at least deserved to let Andrew know that you were planning on going to someone else for the website, and should've understood that Aaron basically ripped Andrew's design off. It sounds as though you were expecting Andrew to continue working on the site without receiving any money, but had no problem putting that money in the hands of someone that is a straight up scumbag in my eyes (AaronP). Sorry, but nobody is coming out of this looking pretty, and using this forum as a way to publicly attack one another is certainly not helping.

...though the story is a little hard to follow,
the feeling i get from it is along the lines as the impression stated by JFB.
this thread ain't gonna win you any lovin' over here.
unless i'm mistaken, you owe andrew some web design money.
whole thing sounds cheeseball to me.
ck

My two cents -

The logo sounds like a misunderstanding. Andrew/Ashley thought you were just buying the business card design, while you did not. Since they were unclear about this and did not make fully clear this part of the purchase, the logo is yours.

Now, the website bit. If the following happened to me:
1) asked to build a website
2) had already spent considerable time on it
3) had been paid nothing for what work I had done
4) found the website was done by someone else using my design
5) had received no prior indication that the client was unhappy or intending to find someone else
I would be pretty pissed, and I think understandably so. Tim, I think you at least deserved to let Andrew know that you were planning on going to someone else for the website, and should've understood that Aaron basically ripped Andrew's design off. It sounds as though you were expecting Andrew to continue working on the site without receiving any money, but had no problem putting that money in the hands of someone that is a straight up scumbag in my eyes (AaronP). Sorry, but nobody is coming out of this looking pretty, and using this forum as a way to publicly attack one another is certainly not helping.

...though the story is a little hard to follow,
the feeling i get from it is along the lines as the impression stated by JFB.
this thread ain't gonna win you any lovin' over here.
unless i'm mistaken, you owe andrew some web design money.
whole thing sounds cheeseball to me.
ck
Both you gents are correct in my eyes.
Plus coming on here touting Aaron P was a no no. He did everything he could before he was banned to cause trouble here.
I think you guys need to call it a wash and walk away....

Ok, where to start with this.

We have not replied to this thread or the one located on FaunaClassifieds, as we wanted to handle it differently, so we walked away from this mess. It just seems that the more we let this go, the more it is slightly being brought up, and we feel our name is being slandered by this account, so we are finally here to explain exactly what went on between us and Tim. Throughout this post screenshots will be posted to back up these accounts. They are full sized, so they will be provided as links.

In early May, my wife was contacted by our ‘friend’, Patrick Long. He knew both her and I had done graphics work, including business card designs in the past. He had given an attempt at Tim’s business card (which will be posted below this paragraph)… but Tim wanted something ‘classier’. This is where Ashley had come into the scene. Tim explained roughly what he wanted his card to include along with him wanting the design to be based off of what Patrick had made for him, for instance he liked the color and font that Patrick had picked. She designed the main layout of the card and everything, including the snake, that was based off of her Pastel Ball Python in regards to shape. The facial design and expression was used from different drawings Ashley had done in the past, which Tim liked and picked out. Ashley sent scans of the Pied Bp during each design progression in order to ensure that Tim was happy how things were coming along. The Pied was the main discussion focal point between Ashley and Tim as they both felt it was what “made” the card. After near completion of the card, Ashley began bumping into a problem with her software, as she wanted a specific effect to be done to card that she could not figure out how to create using Corel Painter X, so the files were sent over to me, and I was soon introduced to Tim. After the completion of the business card Ashley was paid $100 through PayPal as commissioned work. She was not a “pay to hire” (Unless Tim can provide proper paperwork including payroll papers with Ashley’s Social security number on them).

Patricks original concept-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/patricksdesign.jpg

Ashleys original artwork done before this business card...
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/pre-headscans.jpg

Artwork progression, showing it was nothing more being done, other than a business card.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/originalscan1.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/originalscan2.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/originalscan3.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/card_almostdone.jpg

And the final file to be received, as this is what was paid for-
http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/redone2.jpg

Ashleys pay, and only pay. In Tims words "payment for the business cards"... not a thank you for them. There are two others to follow, showing neither her, nor I had received payment from Tim on anything, including a "Logo" Payment.
http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/paypalstatement.jpg
http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/paypalstatement2.jpg
-Mine-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/andrew_paypalstatement.jpg

Tim fully understood he was paying Ashley in regards to a business card design, as well as her. This is why Tim had only received the business card file, rather than the entire collection of files, as this is what he paid for, and he was fully fine with this.

Tim had asked me to build him a website, shortly after the card was finished, and I declined for the time being. I had explained to him that I was just making a move from NW Ohio, to Southern Florida, and I had also been working night shift for the time being, so my hands were tied. Tim offered to pay the money up front if I would start working on it soon, and I rejected. I explained to him that I would like to start working on the website when I knew I had the open time, not take money before hand when I didn’t know when things would settle for me. Tim understood and had no problem with it.

During the time I was moving and working I kept in contact with Tim. He had hit me up numerous times for advice on photography equipment, techniques, and random other odds and ends dealing with photography and how to get animals to sit still, etc. I had no problem with it, and gladly helped him out. I again explained the time frame to him on the website, and would not be able to take it in as a job until hopefully later that year when things calmed down, and he accepted, stating he’d like to go with me for the web design as I was offering him a good price. Between friends the price was to be $350. The cost was going to cover my wife’s graphics work and for Tim to gain partial copyright for him to use the logo anywhere outside the business card, as long as the picture was not modified or changed in anyway. I was doing the coding end of the website for free, as a friend. Tim understood, and had no problem with it.

After moving to Florida, I notified Tim that I had time open, and I agreed to take on his website design, as he had not contacted another designer at this time. The website was started on October 12th 2009. A screen shot below shows the file creation date. Tim has been leading people on to believe that I have been working on his site for much longer, and that I have been beating around the bush and not getting it finished.

Screen shot of original creation date-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/websitecreationdate.jpg

Now there is mention of different “due dates” that were brought up, that I failed to fulfill. Unfortunately, Tim wanted changes to be done, which caused us to be behind schedule. We were installing and modifying a store for Tim called OsCommerce. Which Tim agreed upon. After a week of editing Tim’s OsCommerce based store and nearly completing it, Tim was no longer interested in a separate store and chooses to go with a simple availability page added to his site. After working on and removing Tim’s OsCommerce based store, and switching to a different route and play catch up the due date could not be met. Tim claimed in his post that he was no longer interested in OsCommerce as customers would have to put their credit card information into a “new breeders website”, but it was explained to him before hand that payment was handled through PayPal checkout, so no credit card information would be exchanging through his hands.

Best screen shot we have showing the files and mod-dates for the shopping cart-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/oscommerce.jpg

We began uploading multiple files and Photoshop documents to Tim’s server. These uploads led to Aaron Paulmer being able to duplicate my website design, the banner I had made was one of those files. If you need proof on the following uploads, please look back on Tim’s business card, the Pied ball python had a black shading that lightly rounded and draped upon the edge of the snake, but the watermarks Tim had begun to use didn’t have this shading and were crisp and clean which were the Photoshop files we had uploaded due to the $350 agreement for him to receive partial copyright of the Pied picture along with his entire site.

We came to the point of almost uploading the entire site and being done. We then asked Tim for payment, or at least 50% of it at that time. Tim told us, that at that time he didn’t have money for the payment, and that he would have to check with his wife about things. I explained to him that until we get paid at least half of the asking price that we cannot upload the rest of his site, which is why we put up the “Site under Construction” page. We felt that we just couldn’t hand over our entire product without something to show for it.

A few days later it is impossible for me to reach Tim. He had informed me that he was going to be attending the NARBC show on November 7-8th of 2009, and that he had problems with his phone losing service in some areas. I left him a voice message because I couldn’t reach him. Monday the 9th of that November rolls around and I still cannot reach him. I had two phone numbers to reach him at, his cell phone and house number. So all I could do was continue to try and call and leave messages. I continue to try and reach him by phone until November 12th when my wife woke me up showing me our website design and graphics had been ripped off and that there as a thread made by Tim praising Aaron Paulmer for being such a good “web site builder”, which is what led to the mess afterwards.

During our discussion over the phone to try and handle this, we had both agreed on an apology to my wife for attempting to steal her other variations of this artwork, and pull what he had done, as she felt humiliated after this ordeal. He agreed yet, in his post he claimed he doesn’t understand what the apology was for. While on the phone Tim explained that he wanted full copyright of the photo so there was to be no problems between us, now or later in the future. It was $500 for full copyright. After giving Tim the full copyright price, Tim’s attitude changed and stated over the phone on more than one occasion that he was going to do whatever he wanted with the image, as Tim felt there won’t be a lawyer or firm that would take up this case as it involved “so little money”.

When we confronted Tim about stealing the graphics and the design of the website, he threatened us through a Private Message on a forum. He stated pretty much, that he either gets to keep the website I originally designed and graphics according to his terms and what he wants (There was no median found), or he will slander us for as long as he can. We have a screen shot of this Private Message below.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b296/Kaa22/privatemessage.jpg

After attempting a resolution it was obvious that neither party was going to agree upon something. We felt the only thing we could do, would be to go to a lawyer, and by posting our side before such would be considered antagonizing, so that is why we walked away. Here is our reply on the topic, along with various screenshots.

We apologize for the long overdue reply, but we just felt it was in our best interest to hold off.

-Andrew & Ashley

When we confronted Tim about stealing the graphics and the design of the website, he threatened us through a Private Message on a forum. He stated pretty much, that he either gets to keep the website I originally designed and graphics according to his terms and what he wants (There was no median found), or he will slander us for as long as he can. We have a screen shot of this Private Message below.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...atemessage.jpg

I Agree with Andrew on his whole post. It is as accurate as I could portray myself. Most if not all or our communication was done through text,phone, and instant messenger(which I learn can't be done). The above quote is all I would like to counter on, I said I could continue being a D!ck but it would be better if we worked it out between us. We could not work it out so as a direct result of this thread a web and logo designer contacted me about doing a different snake design since that was what the big part of our parting ways in the first place.

Now After re reading my new logo thread I can see where it could be construed as me bringing up Andrew and Ashley but that was not my intentions. I was very happy with the logo Ashley and Andrew designed. I fought trying to keep it but in the end there was no way so I changed it. I took blame for not informing Aaron I didn't own the RM logo, because I in fact thought I did.

Let me say again I agree with Andrews whole post it is how I would post it if I was as articulate. I never once said a bad word to or about either Ashley or Andrew after this exploded. I didn't see it as me winning or anything. I saw it as "well there goes what I have been building my business on,what should I do now".

Let me say this I was happy with every bit of the work I got from Ashley and Andrew. I think for almost a whole year it was worth the $100 I paid for it. If I had it to do again I would have asked for the price to own everything, but isn't that the saying, Lessons Learned.

Here's That apology for Ashley I am sorry I ever put up that partial drawing of the unfinished logo you were making for me. It was done in bad taste and was uncalled for.

Now After re reading my new logo thread I can see where it could be construed as me bringing up Andrew and Ashley but that was not my intentions.
This was to get our side of the story out, rather than one persons involvement with the incident. We felt this has hurt our reputation long enough, without our side of the story being told, for people to make their own judgment. This wasn't brought up by your logo post.

Oh I understand now. Your were right both sides of the story should have been seen. Glad there both there for people to form there own opinion.

My two cents -

The logo sounds like a misunderstanding. Andrew/Ashley thought you were just buying the business card design, while you did not. Since they were unclear about this and did not make fully clear this part of the purchase, the logo is yours.

Now, the website bit. If the following happened to me:
1) asked to build a website
2) had already spent considerable time on it
3) had been paid nothing for what work I had done
4) found the website was done by someone else using my design
5) had received no prior indication that the client was unhappy or intending to find someone else
I would be pretty pissed, and I think understandably so. Tim, I think you at least deserved to let Andrew know that you were planning on going to someone else for the website, and should've understood that Aaron basically ripped Andrew's design off. It sounds as though you were expecting Andrew to continue working on the site without receiving any money, but had no problem putting that money in the hands of someone that is a straight up scumbag in my eyes (AaronP). Sorry, but nobody is coming out of this looking pretty, and using this forum as a way to publicly attack one another is certainly not helping.

After reading both sides, I still feel exactly the same way. Maybe the business card issue was just a misunderstanding, but getting another "web designer" to build a site based on images already uploaded and created by someone else for FREE (to that point) is just beyond shady.