As we all know, times are tough. Thus, animals are not selling. If they are, not for what they are worth.

When I post an ad, I generally look around to see what comparable animals are selling for. Sure, you'll find the ads that are too high and those that are way too low. I try to use good judgment. If there are no ads selling the same kind of animal, I pick a price I think is fair and adjust based on response.

In this market though, I'm not sure how to list my ads. I'm seeing ads with crazy low prices. I'm also seeing ads where people are not budging... they are also not selling. I've tried to maintain my prices, but don't even get inquiries. Here is an example. I did the Repticon show this past weekend. I had a few albino boas possible jungle on my table. I put what I thought was a fair price on them. However, I walked around and seen albino boas for $350. Now, they were low quality compared to mine, but it's hard to compete with that.

So what do you do if your willing to sell at good prices, BUT do not want to be considered a market crasher? I was talking to a friend at the show. He said he lists his animals and keeps his prices steady in the ad but negotiates when contacted. However, he is dealing with lower end animals. I think many of us are willing to negotiate, but aren't even being contacted about our ads. How do you list your ad with a price, but at the same time make the ad tell your potential customer you are willing to go lower?

Also, if you have multiple animals, I think it's important to keep prices in ads steady. What if I sell an animal to a customer for $950 one week and the next week I'm listing the same type of animal for $800? Now I have an upset customer.

Negotiation of price will also depend on the animals. I have a few spiders for sale. If I can't get what I listed them for, I'll just keep them and breed them. However, when you have 100 baby boas for sale, there is room for negotiation.

Let's discuss...

I think in a way it's both a scary prospect and an exciting one for someone like me who is just beginning in the herp world and does not have a whole lot of expendable cash.

On one side I see the way the market is going and I know if I don't produce absolutely spectacular balls and corns I'm never going to break even on food costs which get higher everytime I order. However, I do know that I never got into the hobby because I wanted to get rich. I got into it because I love the animals! Which brings me to my second point:

On the other side I see it almost as an opportunity for someone in my situation to be able to actually afford some of the amazing morphs and species that are out there! Which when it comes down to it is really why the majority of us love reptiles. The vast selection of traits, morphs, species, temperments, sizes etc... etc... I'm actually looking at being able to afford shortly one of my dream snakes that I thought I would only ever be able to get by breeding my own (which I still might try to do) a Pewter BP.

Yeah it kind of sucks for the people who have invested thousands (and sometimes much much more) in animals that have not held there value but for someone like me it's a whole new world. I do believe that the market will bounce back eventually but people will have to adapt their business styles to fit that if they actually intend to sell reptiles as their primary source of income.

Sorry kind of long winded but that's my take on it.

thats what happens when millions breed ball pythons. :lol:

As we all know, times are tough. Thus, animals are not selling. If they are, not for what they are worth.

People will only pay what THEY feel they are worth... I would gladly pay 3 times the going rate for something that is of VALUE to me. However, I would also gladly pass on items that were far below market value...

Morphs pay the bills, normals pay the food bill....

I breed because i enjoy it, not for the money, unfortunately too many folks are in this for the wrong reason.

Rob

This is a tricky one. First things first however. I don't care what anybody is selling their stuff for my animals are valuable to at least one person, ME! I not giving them away no matter what the guy at the table next to me is selling his for. I buy quality and I sell quality.

But more to the point. I have found that if I just hold on to my animals a little longer they do sell for the price I want. It's just a matter of figuring out how much it cost to hold on to it verses how much you would lose by selling it cheaper.

For example: If it cost $10 dollars a month to feed the animal, and you have to hold on to it for a additional three months to get the price you want. Is the difference in the price you were going to lower it to say down from $200 to $100 more or less then the $30 it cost to keep it. For me often times its worth it for me to just hang on to them a little longer.

With regards to negotiating, I have found myself doing more of it lately. I don't know what you can do to increase the amount of inquiries. Honestly people just email me and and say "would you be willing to do it for ___". I guess you can always put OBO in the post.

Not easy is it.... The last two shows I have done just got progressively worse in terms of people buying. Practically all the vendors I talked to said the same thing, stuff isn't selling.... unless it's a $10 corn snake.

I've done some good trades, but that doesn't help pay bills or whatever reason you need to sell....

I think you just have to price stuff according to what it is selling for in general or a little higher if one is above average or lower if a little under average looking etc.

I think if you state in an advert that your willing to go lower, then you can expect some pretty low ball offers.... at least people would be inquiring huh? Maintaining prices and working a sale for less then advertised I think is the way to go.... example: $100 animal sells for $75, but if your prices stay listed at $100.... I think it helps to at least slow the drop in market pricing.

This isn't just a reflection on ball pythons, it's boas and other reptiles as well.

Not easy is it.... The last two shows I have done just got progressively worse in terms of people buying. Practically all the vendors I talked to said the same thing, stuff isn't selling.... unless it's a $10 corn snake.

I've done some good trades, but that doesn't help pay bills or whatever reason you need to sell....

I think you just have to price stuff according to what it is selling for in general or a little higher if one is above average or lower if a little under average looking etc.

I think if you state in an advert that your willing to go lower, then you can expect some pretty low ball offers.... at least people would be inquiring huh? Maintaining prices and working a sale for less then advertised I think is the way to go.... example: $100 animal sells for $75, but if your prices stay listed at $100.... I think it helps to at least slow the drop in market pricing.

This isn't just a reflection on ball pythons, it's boas and other reptiles as well.

I guess my big issue is with the shows. It's to the point where you struggle to make enough to pay for your tables and electricity. At this last show, people were basically giving things away. I had a lot of people try to get into a bidding war with me and other vendors. I held my ground, but lost the sales. I figured I'd rather take the animal home than give it away.

One thing myself and another leo vendor was talking about is we've noticed that people don't know or seem to care about what quality is. It's all about price. We both were surprised to see the quality of animals that was chosen over ours.

My point with this thread was not to complain about the market or complain about sales. I will hold on to my animals if I have too. Rather, I wanted to see what others thought about how to price animals, invite people to make offers, but doing so without being a market crasher.

Here are a few points to ponder ....

1) Mostly in BPs the quality has fallen dramatically in more than a few cases. The NEW potential customers are being inundated with a variety of price ranges but without proper research or a basic understanding of how the genes work the customer is literally a dumbass in most cases.

2) Primarily in BPs , customers see " Male morph for $XXX.XX at XXX grams. Put a few meals in him and make your money back in the first year." This alone supersedes any concept of the proper way to pick breed stock, regardless if its for a starting breeder or a hobby breeder.

3) Due to non-selective breeding a market has been established for lower quality animals whose only appeal is a price much lower than a nice quality, selective bred animal. The ignorant masses that haven't done the research will look to those first as a cheap start up thinking they will sell everything quick and use the money for more or better stock.

4) For the past 4 or so years , 100 - 400 lot of CH BP females were bought up by those with aspirations of being a big breeder without the benefit of proper mentoring , knowledge of the genes they choose to reproduce and not understanding how to properly grow into a business breeding animals and becoming nothing more than a mass producer that fades away in a few short years leaving piss poor stock in the hands of new keepers.

5) Most of the market crashers , price droppers etc are complete dumbasses when it comes to business. When it costs more to produce your product , you don't offer it for cost or less.

There are morphs that are over bred in most , if not all , species markets. Even tho these are over bred , there should still be a cap on the price but most don't see it that way or understand why.

I've seen hypos for $75 or less and they aren't selling as well as people think. For those that have been around and asked the questions or done the research to gain the understanding necessary to survive and excel in the reptile industry , they look for the middle of the road price. Those few ( it seems ) understand that sharp declines in prices means that the project they choose to pursue has been devalued in a monetary sense. While they have a love for the animals , we all want to sell babies for extra cash , cover expenses or just to have some extra cash to do stuff or add to our collections without dipping into our paychecks.

I'm not against a market shift in price but 50% cuts every year is asinine. The prices should change by no more than 15 - 20% , the higher side for those morphs that are produced the most. If prices would hold steady and more customers took the time to understand how a project SHOULD be picked and set up , then those not selectively breeding would fall to the wayside eventually if they did not change their breed stock or breeding practices.

As bad as we all want to get asking price , a discount isn't a bad thing. If the discount makes the customer happy and it leaves you in a position to make a good percentage off of the sale then don't be scared to do so. If it bothers you to be lowballed or drug into a auction with another breeder , dump the customer. A few bucks isn't worth the hassle. If you are producing solid quality animals , don't compromise with an idiot that looks at the price instead of the actual VALUE of your stock. If price is the only thing the customer is looking at , the possibility of them being worth the trouble is slim to none in most cases. The price is one thing , the actual value of the animal is based on the quality of the animal. I , myself , won't compromise on the value and my prices reflect that , including how much of a discount I may be inclined to offer.

I can't tell you how to word an ad since the animal itself pictured should be enough to bring an inquiry. If it doesn't , don't automatically think its your ad. It takes two to buy an animal , 1 to sell it and 1 to buy it. If keeping at a steady price for awhile isn't a financial problem , eventually someone will notice that you aren't playing the pricing game and will hit you up. THOSE are the folks that you want as they understand your not compromising the value of your collection and in turn not devaluing theirs.

The biggest thing that is rarely looked at or discussed openly is that once the prices are cut , they stay cut. There is no going back to pre-economic crisis prices. I know some appreciate the price decreases but one thing I've learned ..... If someone is willing to shell out the $$$ for a good , solid quality animal , they are generally the dedicated , dead serious keepers. I'm not saying that folks that won't pay it or can't pay it aren't serious keepers but a lot of those coming in now are only focused on getting what they can as cheap as they can. Its an unfortunate blanket that the good guys with a tighter budget get covered in.

What was the original question again???

Excellent reply Byron! :rockon:

Bryon... Excellent post!!! You said everything I was thinking.

Thanks Jeff. My longest post on here I think.

To answer one of your other questions about pricing.

Use a graded pricing scale. The better the animal looks or shows the gene , the higher end of the scale it is priced at.

Example ....

Male Pastel - Perfect example of the originals that we miss seeing $200
Male pastel - Not bad but not a perfect example $150
Male Pastel - Will turn into a crap brown pastel $75 - 100

A graded scale allows your customers to pick good stock thats spread into competitive pricing categories , one of which will likely fit in their budget. You don't have to compromise your value on the animals and the customer can't come back and complain if someone buys cheaper or higher.

A good example would be Salmon Boa ( Rich Ihle ), look there to get an idea how his scale is set up.

I guess my big issue is with the shows. It's to the point where you struggle to make enough to pay for your tables and electricity. At this last show, people were basically giving things away. I had a lot of people try to get into a bidding war with me and other vendors. I held my ground, but lost the sales. I figured I'd rather take the animal home than give it away.

One thing myself and another leo vendor was talking about is we've noticed that people don't know or seem to care about what quality is. It's all about price. We both were surprised to see the quality of animals that was chosen over ours.

My point with this thread was not to complain about the market or complain about sales. I will hold on to my animals if I have too. Rather, I wanted to see what others thought about how to price animals, invite people to make offers, but doing so without being a market crasher.

Shows of late have been terrible.... I agree. People are gunning for price more then anything, maybe that's a reflection on how bad things are for a lot of buyers? I'm sure it's pretty damn tough for a lot and some are probably just taking advantage of that perception.... I don't know.

I had a smoking mojave, ghost and spotnose (All females) on the table at the last show I did a month ago or a little less. People commented on how nice they were, but there was no way I was going to let them go for lower then I had them priced. So they all came home because to me they were worth every penny!

I'd rather hold onto them, then take some low offer. I had an IJ carpet, sexed for sale for $100 (That's about what they were going for) and got a low ball offer of $60... almost 50% less then what it was listed. No sale, I told the guy I won't go that low.

I think taking a lesser price on the listed price is okay, but it's your own judgement as to how far you want to go with that.

Here are a few points to ponder ....

1) Mostly in BPs the quality has fallen dramatically in more than a few cases. The NEW potential customers are being inundated with a variety of price ranges but without proper research or a basic understanding of how the genes work the customer is literally a dumbass in most cases.

2) Primarily in BPs , customers see " Male morph for $XXX.XX at XXX grams. Put a few meals in him and make your money back in the first year." This alone supersedes any concept of the proper way to pick breed stock, regardless if its for a starting breeder or a hobby breeder.

3) Due to non-selective breeding a market has been established for lower quality animals whose only appeal is a price much lower than a nice quality, selective bred animal. The ignorant masses that haven't done the research will look to those first as a cheap start up thinking they will sell everything quick and use the money for more or better stock.

4) For the past 4 or so years , 100 - 400 lot of CH BP females were bought up by those with aspirations of being a big breeder without the benefit of proper mentoring , knowledge of the genes they choose to reproduce and not understanding how to properly grow into a business breeding animals and becoming nothing more than a mass producer that fades away in a few short years leaving piss poor stock in the hands of new keepers.

5) Most of the market crashers , price droppers etc are complete dumbasses when it comes to business. When it costs more to produce your product , you don't offer it for cost or less.

There are morphs that are over bred in most , if not all , species markets. Even tho these are over bred , there should still be a cap on the price but most don't see it that way or understand why.

I've seen hypos for $75 or less and they aren't selling as well as people think. For those that have been around and asked the questions or done the research to gain the understanding necessary to survive and excel in the reptile industry , they look for the middle of the road price. Those few ( it seems ) understand that sharp declines in prices means that the project they choose to pursue has been devalued in a monetary sense. While they have a love for the animals , we all want to sell babies for extra cash , cover expenses or just to have some extra cash to do stuff or add to our collections without dipping into our paychecks.

I'm not against a market shift in price but 50% cuts every year is asinine. The prices should change by no more than 15 - 20% , the higher side for those morphs that are produced the most. If prices would hold steady and more customers took the time to understand how a project SHOULD be picked and set up , then those not selectively breeding would fall to the wayside eventually if they did not change their breed stock or breeding practices.

As bad as we all want to get asking price , a discount isn't a bad thing. If the discount makes the customer happy and it leaves you in a position to make a good percentage off of the sale then don't be scared to do so. If it bothers you to be lowballed or drug into a auction with another breeder , dump the customer. A few bucks isn't worth the hassle. If you are producing solid quality animals , don't compromise with an idiot that looks at the price instead of the actual VALUE of your stock. If price is the only thing the customer is looking at , the possibility of them being worth the trouble is slim to none in most cases. The price is one thing , the actual value of the animal is based on the quality of the animal. I , myself , won't compromise on the value and my prices reflect that , including how much of a discount I may be inclined to offer.

I can't tell you how to word an ad since the animal itself pictured should be enough to bring an inquiry. If it doesn't , don't automatically think its your ad. It takes two to buy an animal , 1 to sell it and 1 to buy it. If keeping at a steady price for awhile isn't a financial problem , eventually someone will notice that you aren't playing the pricing game and will hit you up. THOSE are the folks that you want as they understand your not compromising the value of your collection and in turn not devaluing theirs.

The biggest thing that is rarely looked at or discussed openly is that once the prices are cut , they stay cut. There is no going back to pre-economic crisis prices. I know some appreciate the price decreases but one thing I've learned ..... If someone is willing to shell out the $$$ for a good , solid quality animal , they are generally the dedicated , dead serious keepers. I'm not saying that folks that won't pay it or can't pay it aren't serious keepers but a lot of those coming in now are only focused on getting what they can as cheap as they can. Its an unfortunate blanket that the good guys with a tighter budget get covered in.

What was the original question again???

Quality beats quantity in my mind, every ball python we have was selected because of how impressive it is.... and we paid more for it. I think that every morph we have is a great example of it. Last season we hatched out and kept some offspring we consider just stunning looking..... but I think good looking animals produce good looking animals.

I also think holding your ground on pricing is something you have to do if you want to still be around in a few years, if you want to be considered a dedicated breeder.... I think you have to drop your pricing with the drops, but just not as bad as the dumpers who's only motivation is the sale.... price your animals at what you think they are worth to you, if you drop a little for someone that recognizers quality then I think that is cool....

No sale, I told the guy I won't go that low.


This is why you should do all my customer service...I have in the past said much worst things that may have not helped me in the long run. :cheers:

Shows of late have been terrible.... I agree. People are gunning for price more then anything, maybe that's a reflection on how bad things are for a lot of buyers? I'm sure it's pretty damn tough for a lot and some are probably just taking advantage of that perception.... I don't know.


I may stop doing shows for awhile because of this and just stick to Internet sales. I use to do great at the Tampa show. However, now not so much. My table bill there is usually about $380 with electricity. I barely paid for my tables at the last show.

I haven't done a show in a couple of years...To much junk and the local shows around here everybody is looking for the cheapest herps possible...Doesn't matter what it looks like - How many mites it's covered in or how close to death's door it is...I agree with Scott - Quality produces quality...I will come down off my prices within reason but like others have already said - I ain't givin **** away...IMO - Produce nice animals - Give great customer service - Your stuff will sell...Don't be affraid to put stuff on the shelve...You provide kickass animals with customer service that exceeds the buyers expectations and you'll have plenty of repeat business...An to be honest - It's a lot easier and cheaper to sit in front of a computer typing up a few ads - Uploading a few pics - Answering a few questions than it is to haul a bunch of stuff to shows - Take the chance of your stuff getting mites and Lord knows what - Paying for tables and electricity...Just my 2 cents...

I agree 120% with everything you have to say there Bryon. Me personally I want to get a cinny female so I can try for pewters in a few years but I have a VERY specific look and quality of snake that I want. I could have picked up 4 of them at the last show I went to and still went home with money in my pocket cuz people were selling these crap quality cinnys for $200. The only one that I saw that met my expectations was $500 and if it wasn't a male I would have bought it in a second.
I won't settle for low quality animals because as I said before the only chance I think I have of ever coming close to breaking even in this market is to produce TOP quality animals and in order to do that I have to have exceptional quality breeders! I admit I've gotten a couple of snakes that were just so so because they were cheaper but that was when I was first starting out, I love them just the same but I'll be very selective about breeding them (if I breed them at all). I don't need to just churn out low quality babies to make a quick buck. I look at it as I may not be able to sell ANY of them so shouldn't I personally like what I produce?

I agree 120% with everything you have to say there Bryon. Me personally I want to get a cinny female so I can try for pewters in a few years but I have a VERY specific look and quality of snake that I want. I could have picked up 4 of them at the last show I went to and still went home with money in my pocket cuz people were selling these crap quality cinnys for $200. The only one that I saw that met my expectations was $500 and if it wasn't a male I would have bought it in a second.
I won't settle for low quality animals because as I said before the only chance I think I have of ever coming close to breaking even in this market is to produce TOP quality animals and in order to do that I have to have exceptional quality breeders! I admit I've gotten a couple of snakes that were just so so because they were cheaper but that was when I was first starting out, I love them just the same but I'll be very selective about breeding them (if I breed them at all). I don't need to just churn out low quality babies to make a quick buck. I look at it as I may not be able to sell ANY of them so shouldn't I personally like what I produce?

Adam - If everyone thought like you we'd be in good shape...:rockon:...Be very - very selective when buying your breeding stock...When I think of selective breeding - I think of the animals Albey produces...

Adam - If everyone thought like you we'd be in good shape...:rockon:...Be very - very selective when buying your breeding stock...When I think of selective breeding - I think of the animals Albey produces...

Good call. Many of my leo breeders are from Albey. Terrific animals! I've produced some insane geckos from his breeding stock too.

Adam - If everyone thought like you we'd be in good shape...:rockon:...Be very - very selective when buying your breeding stock...When I think of selective breeding - I think of the animals Albey produces...

Absolutely! Albey is the #1 reason I even want a pewter. His pewters, silver bullets and sterlings are just absolutely out of this world. I'm trying to find some exceptional Graziani line pastel and cinnies so I can TRY to reproduce what he's made but if all else fails I'll just save my $ and get one of his.

Quality beats quantity in my mind, every ball python we have was selected because of how impressive it is.... and we paid more for it. I think that every morph we have is a great example of it. Last season we hatched out and kept some offspring we consider just stunning looking..... but I think good looking animals produce good looking animals.

I also think holding your ground on pricing is something you have to do if you want to still be around in a few years, if you want to be considered a dedicated breeder.... I think you have to drop your pricing with the drops, but just not as bad as the dumpers who's only motivation is the sale.... price your animals at what you think they are worth to you, if you drop a little for someone that recognizers quality then I think that is cool....

EXACTLY!

We've gotten either the price listed or equal value for each animal we moved this year. I'm pretty happy about that. I'm not above giving deals either but I'm not let somebody rape me to feel good about the deal either. When the deal is done BOTH the seller & buyer should feel confident that deal was righteous.

Good points everybody.

One thing I've noticed is the amount of new folks coming into the hobby and doing research or asking the right questions is looking to be the minority. Thats sad when I think back to the amount of mentoring I had when I was new. I guess the difference from then and now is the amount of work that went into streamlining the breeding processes that newer folks can readily find and that usually accounts for 90% of their research.

Me personally , I'd rather set up a day to visit a breeder either at his facility or a meeting place and hand pick what I want rather than go to a show. If I did go to a show , I'd prefer a breeder that doesn't let every Tom , **** & Harry hold their animals unless they are seriously looking to spend the money.

EXACTLY!



One thing I've noticed is the amount of new folks coming into the hobby and doing research or asking the right questions is looking to be the minority. Thats sad when I think back to the amount of mentoring I had when I was new. I guess the difference from then and now is the amount of work that went into streamlining the breeding processes that newer folks can readily find and that usually accounts for 90% of their research.



Too true man. I'll admit that when I first got my Ball Python it was an impulse buy something I've always tried to avoid doing. But I had money from my separation pay from the Army and I decided I wanted to either get an animal or a tattoo :nono:. However, once I had her I chose to research EVERYTHING I possibly could on these amazing animals and within 2 days I had my basic husbandry down, within a month I had the advanced husbandry down and within 2 months I had started the continuing process of learning all about their genetics and health! Now today I have 17 snakes with 3 more coming next week and I feel that I give each and every one of them the best possible environment and care that can possibly be had.
Not too long after I got into balls I hooked up with Kara up at NERD (not literally, I mean we talked lol) and she's given me some of the best and most useful information of anyone I've talked to. Since then I've been absolutely devouring everything I can find to read on snakes and spend probably 3-4 hours a day doing nothing but reading about them (I read 500+ words per minute so thats a LOT of reading!).

Sorry got me going off on a tangent there :lol:

Adam - If everyone thought like you we'd be in good shape...:rockon:...Be very - very selective when buying your breeding stock...When I think of selective breeding - I think of the animals Albey produces...

I agree 100%... too many people get into the hobby and after two weeks decide "I want to breed"...so instead of putting thought into the animals that they are buying...they look for the lowest priced animals.

Albey is definitely going to get business for YEARS to come, why...just look at his stock, no ugly animals sitting around there! :cheers:

I have noticed a lot of " If I breed my bumble bee to my pastel what will I get?" threads of late! These are the guys that will screw up the market eventually. No history with reptiles, no longterm time investment, no experience, no clue but in it for cash and glory!
I have been done with thinking about any animal I own as an investment for some time now. I just breed very selectivly for quality and what I want in my collection.

I have noticed a lot of " If I breed my bumble bee to my pastel what will I get?" threads of late! These are the guys that will screw up the market eventually. No history with reptiles, no longterm time investment, no experience, no clue but in it for cash and glory!
I have been done with thinking about any animal I own as an investment for some time now. I just breed very selectivly for quality and what I want in my collection.
Bingo!

Make stuff that makes you go, wow... Who cares what might sell best, or where the prices are. The only way the market may rebound is if more people adapt this type of thinking...quality of animals would likely increase...and hell, maybe prices could rebound.

Also, fewer idiots breeding could help the economy rebound. Take it how you will. :lol:

I think one thing we can do to try to help things out a little bit is to try to educate our customers. I try to tell them why someone else's price is so much lower and what I look for in the animals I buy. Most of the time it falls on deaf ears. Some of the people that go to the shows are looking for a cheap morph. Sometimes it has an effect on the person that is new to the hobby, though. I make sure to answer whatever questions a customer has, and make sure that they know what they are getting into. Some people don't realize that when they buy a snake they are getting into a possible 20+ year commitment. They don't understand the needs of the animals and that sticking it in a fish tank on their shelf without appropriate heating and having it's environmental needs met is not acceptable. It may lose me a sale every once in a while, but I'd rather my animals be taken care of, and the customers feel that they have someone they can talk to about any problems they have, or if they just want to talk about the hobby in general. I like to think that someone would rather buy from me opposed to the guy at a different table who's got all sorts of crappy looking animals because I will explain things to them, talk to them about whatever they need to talk about. I think that helping educate our customers can never be a bad thing in the industry. Just my two cents on the issue.. I realize this is alot more difficult with internet sales, but it's still feasible to ask your customers what their plans and goals are, and try to help them towards those goals if you have what they are after. If someone is just looking for a cheap pet, I'll let the customer know they can probably find a cheaper animal elsewhere. If they want something that looks good, is healthy and will produce nice looking offspring, then I can help them find what they want.

Bingo!

Make stuff that makes you go, wow... Who cares what might sell best, or where the prices are. The only way the market may rebound is if more people adapt this type of thinking...quality of animals would likely increase...and hell, maybe prices could rebound.

Also, fewer idiots breeding could help the economy rebound. Take it how you will. :lol:

I breed bulldogs. Every year they go UP in price ever so slightly. You know why? Because it takes long term commitment, knowledge and time to breed them. I have NEVER in 20 years of having them heard the words "Investment" "Customers" or "industry" it is the very nature of the ball python world that is bringing it down. If people were in it for the pretty snakes they could make and the enjoyment it brings them rather than the "investment" then the "Market" would be a whole lot more sound.

I breed bulldogs. Every year they go UP in price ever so slightly. You know why? Because it takes long term commitment, knowledge and time to breed them. I have NEVER in 20 years of having them heard the words "Investment" "Customers" or "industry" it is the very nature of the ball python world that is bringing it down. If people were in it for the pretty snakes they could make and the enjoyment it brings them rather than the "investment" then the "Market" would be a whole lot more sound.

Good point Wood...I'm a Pitbull man myelf but your Bulldogs kick major ass...:rockon:

My first rule is don't ever be scared to take the animal home and put it back on the shelf! I know the time I put into the animals and what I feel they are worth and I don't feel the need to give it away.........

I breed bulldogs. Every year they go UP in price ever so slightly. You know why? Because it takes long term commitment, knowledge and time to breed them. I have NEVER in 20 years of having them heard the words "Investment" "Customers" or "industry" it is the very nature of the ball python world that is bringing it down. If people were in it for the pretty snakes they could make and the enjoyment it brings them rather than the "investment" then the "Market" would be a whole lot more sound.

you make a valid point woodrow.
the term "market" by the very nature of it's use, gives a negative connotation that implies "bargaining". it's very difficult to apply a "value added" approach to any item that's being treated as a commodity. it's up to the individual to operate above the market, which of course will take greater "staying power" to accomplish. unlikely to become standard practice with the current state of the world economy. ultimately, when dealing with any livestock, time decay will come into play, and the need to feed exacerbates that.
ideology in a vacuum (at least as far as bp's and many other herps are concerned) as the degredation of price points will likely continue. short of vastly increasing the consumer base, (even selective breeding can only offer so much pricing support) there is unlikely to be a stall to the downward pricing spiral, and an uptick even farther from likely.
not tryin' to be all doom 'n gloom...
love those balls !
ck

Here are a few points to ponder ....

1) Mostly in BPs the quality has fallen dramatically in more than a few cases. The NEW potential customers are being inundated with a variety of price ranges but without proper research or a basic understanding of how the genes work the customer is literally a dumbass in most cases.

2) Primarily in BPs , customers see " Male morph for $XXX.XX at XXX grams. Put a few meals in him and make your money back in the first year." This alone supersedes any concept of the proper way to pick breed stock, regardless if its for a starting breeder or a hobby breeder.

3) Due to non-selective breeding a market has been established for lower quality animals whose only appeal is a price much lower than a nice quality, selective bred animal. The ignorant masses that haven't done the research will look to those first as a cheap start up thinking they will sell everything quick and use the money for more or better stock.

4) For the past 4 or so years , 100 - 400 lot of CH BP females were bought up by those with aspirations of being a big breeder without the benefit of proper mentoring , knowledge of the genes they choose to reproduce and not understanding how to properly grow into a business breeding animals and becoming nothing more than a mass producer that fades away in a few short years leaving piss poor stock in the hands of new keepers.

5) Most of the market crashers , price droppers etc are complete dumbasses when it comes to business. When it costs more to produce your product , you don't offer it for cost or less.

There are morphs that are over bred in most , if not all , species markets. Even tho these are over bred , there should still be a cap on the price but most don't see it that way or understand why.

I've seen hypos for $75 or less and they aren't selling as well as people think. For those that have been around and asked the questions or done the research to gain the understanding necessary to survive and excel in the reptile industry , they look for the middle of the road price. Those few ( it seems ) understand that sharp declines in prices means that the project they choose to pursue has been devalued in a monetary sense. While they have a love for the animals , we all want to sell babies for extra cash , cover expenses or just to have some extra cash to do stuff or add to our collections without dipping into our paychecks.

I'm not against a market shift in price but 50% cuts every year is asinine. The prices should change by no more than 15 - 20% , the higher side for those morphs that are produced the most. If prices would hold steady and more customers took the time to understand how a project SHOULD be picked and set up , then those not selectively breeding would fall to the wayside eventually if they did not change their breed stock or breeding practices.

As bad as we all want to get asking price , a discount isn't a bad thing. If the discount makes the customer happy and it leaves you in a position to make a good percentage off of the sale then don't be scared to do so. If it bothers you to be lowballed or drug into a auction with another breeder , dump the customer. A few bucks isn't worth the hassle. If you are producing solid quality animals , don't compromise with an idiot that looks at the price instead of the actual VALUE of your stock. If price is the only thing the customer is looking at , the possibility of them being worth the trouble is slim to none in most cases. The price is one thing , the actual value of the animal is based on the quality of the animal. I , myself , won't compromise on the value and my prices reflect that , including how much of a discount I may be inclined to offer.

I can't tell you how to word an ad since the animal itself pictured should be enough to bring an inquiry. If it doesn't , don't automatically think its your ad. It takes two to buy an animal , 1 to sell it and 1 to buy it. If keeping at a steady price for awhile isn't a financial problem , eventually someone will notice that you aren't playing the pricing game and will hit you up. THOSE are the folks that you want as they understand your not compromising the value of your collection and in turn not devaluing theirs.

The biggest thing that is rarely looked at or discussed openly is that once the prices are cut , they stay cut. There is no going back to pre-economic crisis prices. I know some appreciate the price decreases but one thing I've learned ..... If someone is willing to shell out the $$$ for a good , solid quality animal , they are generally the dedicated , dead serious keepers. I'm not saying that folks that won't pay it or can't pay it aren't serious keepers but a lot of those coming in now are only focused on getting what they can as cheap as they can. Its an unfortunate blanket that the good guys with a tighter budget get covered in.

What was the original question again???

Very nice post..... where's the karma button :master:

I haven't done a show in a couple of years...To much junk and the local shows around here everybody is looking for the cheapest herps possible...Doesn't matter what it looks like - How many mites it's covered in or how close to death's door it is...I agree with Scott - Quality produces quality...I will come down off my prices within reason but like others have already said - I ain't givin **** away...IMO - Produce nice animals - Give great customer service - Your stuff will sell...Don't be affraid to put stuff on the shelve...You provide kickass animals with customer service that exceeds the buyers expectations and you'll have plenty of repeat business...An to be honest - It's a lot easier and cheaper to sit in front of a computer typing up a few ads - Uploading a few pics - Answering a few questions than it is to haul a bunch of stuff to shows - Take the chance of your stuff getting mites and Lord knows what - Paying for tables and electricity...Just my 2 cents...

Ok...how many times have you heard the phrase "it looks much better than the photo shows" or something along those lines. I've bought many a snake over the internet from just photos and have also gone to shows to buy. I think you have to go to shows just to display what a really kickass snake looks like and to show people that you are a real person. I've always enjoyed meeting a vendor at a show that I've previously dealt with over the internet. I usually buy more stuff from them when I can actually see what they have in person! I can understand maybe losing money doing shows after all the expenses...but I consider it a "mini vacation" so don't really mind if i break even or not. Just my opinion...

Ok...how many times have you heard the phrase "it looks much better than the photo shows" or something along those lines. I've bought many a snake over the internet from just photos and have also gone to shows to buy. I think you have to go to shows just to display what a really kickass snake looks like and to show people that you are a real person. I've always enjoyed meeting a vendor at a show that I've previously dealt with over the internet. I usually buy more stuff from them when I can actually see what they have in person! I can understand maybe losing money doing shows after all the expenses...but I consider it a "mini vacation" so don't really mind if i break even or not. Just my opinion...

That is the positive side of shows.... getting to hang with people you know etc or meet new people. No doubts there and I've been witness to your spending sprees.

Ok...how many times have you heard the phrase "it looks much better than the photo shows" or something along those lines. I've bought many a snake over the internet from just photos and have also gone to shows to buy. I think you have to go to shows just to display what a really kickass snake looks like and to show people that you are a real person. I've always enjoyed meeting a vendor at a show that I've previously dealt with over the internet. I usually buy more stuff from them when I can actually see what they have in person! I can understand maybe losing money doing shows after all the expenses...but I consider it a "mini vacation" so don't really mind if i break even or not. Just my opinion...

Points well made! I will be doing my first show in Sept. in Anaheim. I am not "counting" on selling even one animal. Psychologically, I need to view the weekend as an opportunity to display my animals IN PERSON, work the public relations angle for the reptile community as a whole, and learn a few things from breeders who have much more experience than myself. And above all -- enjoy the day!!! :wamma: I will likely make some trades at the very least, and if I sell a few -- great!

I am on board for an increased awareness of value grading animals. It is likely the case, that I my have a ball for sale at a higher price than a like animal that is older and 400 grams bigger -- based on QUALITY. The quality animal I have hatched (especially the girls) always have a place in one of my racks.

I grin from ear to ear every time I pull open the tub of one of the many Butter and Black Pastel girls I held back last season. The are stunning, and will no doubt consistently produce stunning -- just like their sires. Not all morphs are created equal. It is the PERFECT TIME that our hobby/business follow suit via their purchasing practices.