Because once in a while the just flippin' croak out of the blue for no good damn reason.
"Dot"
11/05 - 3/10
I was going to breed her for the first time this coming fall.

http://www.eyehit.com/images/rjw05/rjw5_20060530_3.jpg

http://www.eyehit.com/images/rjw05/rjw5_20061209_1.jpg

http://www.eyehit.com/images/temp/dot20080718_3.jpg

http://www.eyehit.com/~damon/dot20081220.jpg

Damn Damon, I'm really sorry to hear that. She was beautiful..

Sorry for your loss, Damon.

ahh man that sucks! sorry to hear that.

Is that a thing with them? Dying like that?

Sorry to hear bro, I couldnt imagine

Bummer man... my condolences to you

That really sucks Damon. I just recently lost an animal so I know what your going through.

I am so sorry to hear this as gorgeous gtp

That really sucks man! She was a beaut too.

that does suck man...

That blows

Thanks, i'll post results of the necropsy when I get them.

That's a real kick in the gonads, sorry to hear that!

Definately a bummer Damon, and she was a beaut as well.

Sorry to hear this....

I'm sorry to hear of your loss. She was an incredible animal. Shame you don't have any offspring to remember her by. :(

Sorry to hear it bro.....

Sorry for your loss

Sorry to hear that this happened, but there is always a reason why they pass, get a necropsy just to be safe!

Marc

Sorry to hear that this happened, but there is always a reason why they pass, get a necropsy just to be safe!

Marc

I'm betting it will come back as an RI that didn't present outwardly.

Man that sucks the gtp i got from you is doing great eating and crappin and just a wonderful animal thanks again kyle

Sorry to hear that Damon, she was a hottie.

Sorry for your loss man -

Sorry to read about Dot Damon. **Hug**

What a bummer - sorry to hear about dot.

:( RIP :yessir:

Preliminary results are in, only thing of note so far is the finding of white pollups in the stomach and intestines...

Preliminary results are in, only thing of note so far is the finding of white pollups in the stomach and intestines...

Just curious - What causes pollups?

Just curious - What causes pollups?

BT,

Here a little info, not sure if it applies to snakes, but I can't see why it wouldn't.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/stomach-polyps/DS00758/DSECTION=causes


Stomach polyps

Causes

By Mayo Clinic staff (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/AboutThisSite/AM00057)
Experts aren't sure why fundic gland stomach polyps develop. However, several problems can cause the gastritis that contributes to hyperplastic polyps and adenomas.
H. pylori

The most common cause of chronic gastritis is infection by Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) bacteria, which can also cause ulcers. About 20 percent of American adults under age 40, and 50 percent of those over age 60 carry these bacteria in their stomachs. Although H. pylori doesn't always cause problems, it can infect and inflame the stomach lining. The resulting damage can set the stage for polyps. One study found H. pylori in 40 percent of people diagnosed with hyperplastic gastric polyps.

Autoimmune response
Another cause of chronic gastritis is an autoimmune reaction, in which your body forms antibodies that attack cells in the stomach and a protein needed for absorbing vitamin B-12. This process may cause vitamin B-12 deficiency anemia in many people with stomach polyps. Anemia is a condition in which you don't have enough healthy red blood cells to carry adequate oxygen to tissues.

Risk factors (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/stomach-polyps/DS00758/DSECTION=risk-factors)Symptoms (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/stomach-polyps/DS00758/DSECTION=symptoms)


DS00758
July 31, 2008
© 1998-2010 Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research (MFMER). All rights reserved. A single copy of these materials may be reprinted for noncommercial personal use only. "Mayo," "Mayo Clinic," "MayoClinic.com," "EmbodyHealth," "Enhance your life," and the triple-shield Mayo Clinic logo are trademarks of Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research.

Sorry to hear that. Sucks when you loose one.

Yeah my bad on the spelling. It's basically an abnormal growth.

Yeah my bad on the spelling. It's basically an abnormal growth.

Damon since most people don't get necropsies done, perhaps this will shed some light on some GTP issues.

I would imagine their is something in the overall way people take care of GTP's causing such abnormal growths. Although some sources also say they can be genetic, but since this happens occasionally who knows if it's environmental or genetic in nature.

Does it appear to happen in long term outwardly appearing healthy animals ?

Maybe it's a non-showing RI infection causing the polyps.

VERY interesting topic :yes:

I, for one, always get them done. Gotta know. Besides, for $75, which i think is reasonable, and the lab at Purdue University only being about an hour away, it makes it realatively convenient.
The last chondro I had done was back in 03, and was found to have synthetic fibers in the colon tract and this over time had caused a deterioration of the lining causing the animal to finally go septic and die. This was an adult female that I only had in my possession or about 1 month. Talk about a shitty deal... The fibers were never positively identified.

Things are in histology/pathology right now, when that comes back they will send out the final report for me. I will scan and post.
-d
p.s. I have a full sib to the animal I lost... interesting as you mentioned genetics...

Damon thanks for posting and please do post the final results.

As you stated the animal showed no outwardly signs of illness and just up and died.

Something else besides those polyps is going on or they can be fatal in snakes causing some type of blockage or Poisoning....I would think you'd see syptoms in poisoning though before death....

Unfinished and not really conclusive findings.

http://www.eyehit.com/images/dotnecro.pdf

Yea man that does suck.. Sorry dude..

Unfinished and not really conclusive findings.

http://www.eyehit.com/images/dotnecro.pdf


Thanks for posting....

Interesting - sorry they couldn't find a definite cause....

Thanks for posting...

Sucks not having a definite answer :dunno:

It is too bad they fond nothing conclusive.

Thanks for posting the necropsy.

It is hard taking care of animals that will use every last ounce of their strength to appear "normal", even on their deathbed. If they show even a hint of weakness in the wild, they are targeted for lunch. Makes it difficult in captivity to discover something is wrong; even when you do catch it sometimes it's already too late.

My armchair quarterback analysis (and it's not worth alot): nicked while feeding near the glottis, mild infection set in and triggered an autoimmune response (nodules and hepatitis).

Did they actually say polyps? In my mind "nodules" is more zit-like, puss filled and "polyp" is a fleshy protrusion, more inflammitory or growth like.

Sadness :( She was just beautiful.

A little OT, but some those photos are really amazing, esp the close up (made me gasp, just gorgeous). I think you should enter it in the photo contest if you haven't already.

At least you have some really beautiful shots to remember her by...

Thanks for posting the necropsy.

It is hard taking care of animals that will use every last ounce of their strength to appear "normal", even on their deathbed. If they show even a hint of weakness in the wild, they are targeted for lunch. Makes it difficult in captivity to discover something is wrong; even when you do catch it sometimes it's already too late.

My armchair quarterback analysis (and it's not worth alot): nicked while feeding near the glottis, mild infection set in and triggered an autoimmune response (nodules and hepatitis).

Did they actually say polyps? In my mind "nodules" is more zit-like, puss filled and "polyp" is a fleshy protrusion, more inflammitory or growth like.

polyp was what was relayed initially by phone. I just got the "paper" on this today. Take it how you will. It's a bullshit deal, because the lab will not disclose to me directly, only to a vet. My vet just relays. (he's my dog vet, very, very good with canines, but not a snake guy. if I need to take something to the lab, he just gives them a call for me.)
Anyhow, I will say, the animal in question was a VERY aggressive feeder and I did recently just up the size of prey slightly.
Thanks for the comment.
-damon

Sorry for your loss that sucks

Anyhow, I will say, the animal in question was a VERY aggressive feeder and I did recently just up the size of prey slightly.
-damon

My deepest sympathies, Damon. We all know how hard it is to lose an animal like that.

When I first read the report, my initial thoughts went to diet. I'm working on getting my BHP's to breed and have been spending a bit of time talking to Derek about health and diet of these animals. For this reason, I have been changing the way I feed some of my critters over the past year or 2. I've been going with smaller, more frequent meals with less fat content.

Although I don't deal with Chondros at the moment, I would speculate that arboreals do not have large, fatty meals readily available in the wild, and would therefore be designed for a diet of small, more arboreal rodents, other reptiles, and birds. When you say she was a very aggressive feeder, what kind of diet are we talking about?

Although your vet is primarily a dog and cat guy, you may be able to get some valuable insight from him regarding the final results and diet. If nothing else, you may be able to alter your feeding regimen on some of your animals to see what kind of conclusions you can draw.

I alternate between mice and rats. I do agree with the idea of smaller prey more frequently and that is my general way of feeding. I stop short of switching to only mice, which I know some people have, because I don't always have them on hand and quite honestly, some of my chondros are just too dang big for mice.
That said, only the last feeding was a size jump. I don't think the animal would have died in 10 days from a botched feeding and the ensuing infection from some sort of wound.
Interestingly, I did just see a necropsy of a chondro that died unexpectedly and the result was a shed and swallowed tooth of the animal itself an it lodge and perforated the intestine resulting in eventual septic shock and death.
As noted, sometimes it's just plain old bad luck.

I I did just see a necropsy of a chondro that died unexpectedly and the result was a shed and swallowed tooth of the animal itself an it lodge and perforated the intestine resulting in eventual septic shock and death.

I've heard other stories of this.... and, I believe that people are mistaken these "teeth".
These "teeth".... are actually the claws from the rodents.

I had a animal poop out about 25 of these at one time. I thought teeth at first but, then realized.....how would they shed all those teeth at one time?
Plus...upon further examination....you can clearly see they are the claws. I've even found the teeth of the rodents.

So, from then on....every now and then.... I go on a fecal search. I have found rodent claws in about ever feces I've examined.

Now, couple that with this statement.....
some of my chondros are just too dang big for mice.


Larger food items have longer and bigger stuff that doesn't digest. So, whether it sits in the stomach for some time....or comes right out....the potential for damage is greater.... because of the size of the "sharp objects".

Chondros are proven to be delicate creatures. "Delicate" and "sharp objects" don't go together very well.

I'd also be willing to bet that the "white pollups"...are "fatty tumors" from the farm bred rodents.

Seen this happen with BHPs a fair bit.

Sucks to lose an animal.

D.

I will have to take the word of the person that did the necropsy on the animal. He stated it was a tooth. I could not dispute that from the photo I saw.

Not a chondro, I haven't sifted the poo on any of them, but I do see teeth, bones, and claws in the monitor crap all the time. Not that I am sifting it, but they crap in the water so it kind of dissolves in a way, and when you dump it you can see all the stuff that is in there. Interesting read, and Damon I am very sorry again about your loss...

Sorry for the loss...

I alternate between mice and rats. I do agree with the idea of smaller prey more frequently and that is my general way of feeding. I stop short of switching to only mice, which I know some people have, because I don't always have them on hand and quite honestly, some of my chondros are just too dang big for mice.
That said, only the last feeding was a size jump. I don't think the animal would have died in 10 days from a botched feeding and the ensuing infection from some sort of wound.
Interestingly, I did just see a necropsy of a chondro that died unexpectedly and the result was a shed and swallowed tooth of the animal itself an it lodge and perforated the intestine resulting in eventual septic shock and death.
As noted, sometimes it's just plain old bad luck.

I'm just grasping at straws throwing my idea out there. I like to try to figure things out. It sounds like a long term thing to me too. like the initial site of infection healed over, but the infection remained and reeked havoc internally out of sight while she put up the brave front and keeled over eventually.



I've heard other stories of this.... and, I believe that people are mistaken these "teeth".
These "teeth".... are actually the claws from the rodents.

Derek, check it out and tell us what you think. I haven't noticed any claws in poo, and if you've seen them then your light years ahead of me. (yeah, obvious understatement) Lots of necropsy photos popping up recently over on Morelia Viridis Forum. I saw the picture too, and it was straight and needle-like. In my mind undoubtably a tooth.


http://moreliaviridis.yuku.com/topic/14595/t/Graphic-Pics-II.html

http://moreliaviridis.yuku.com/topic/14581/t/Graphic-Pics.html

not necropsy, but soon to be, I think.
http://moreliaviridis.yuku.com/topic/14565/t/RTG-pics-of-swollen-gravid-problem-female.html

Can't tell in the second post but, that'"tooth" in the first one....is definitely a claw.
Next time you thaw or fed rodents....pay attention to the claws...pull one out if you have too.

Not saying snakes don't shed or swallow teeth but, I KNOW for a fact... that the claws, teeth, etc of rodents is passed in the feces.

D.

Teeth!
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/Boelens/P5130217.jpg

Teeth indeed. Nice example Tom.

And.... here are some mice nails/claws from a yearling BHP fecal.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/derekroddy/DSC05449.jpg

Sorry for the "crappy" picture. Haha. Cleaned them up as best I could. Yuck!

This was the only pooper today...as of yet. If one of the big guys goes today....I'll look some more....for the bigger rat nails. They're shaped a little different.

Nice teeth Tom! Haha.

Again, I'm not saying they don't swallow teeth....they do, but they also swallow 10 to 20 of these nails every week.

D.

It really is hard when you lose them. I just lost my gravid female GTP Mystique on Sunday night. She had apparently dumped too much calcium into her developing eggs and depleted her system. She fell off her perch Friday morning and just lay there on the ground too weak to get up. I rushed her to the vet for calcium and fluid injections and she seemed to perk up but was back down by the time I got her home. I soaked her and gave her water with a dropper but it just wasn't enough and she died Sunday evening. So I feel your pain. They are incredible animals, but it is so hard that they don't live as long as we do and that they often go for unforeseen reasons. Keep your chin up; hopefully you will never have this happen again.

Just to let you know this is not dead... so to speak. The path and samples have be sent out of state for salmenelia <sp> to a place my vet described as the CIA of path samples... oh great...

And 3 months later... The final report came in the mail yesterday. For those I promised and any that want to get the dictionary out and read along... lol ...
Here is the final report.

http://www.eyehit.com/~damon/dot/

sorry for your loss. i know they do just die i was over at a friend of mines house looking at his condros it was just sitting there one minute and the next it fell of its stick.i said hey man your snakes is a dumb a** but i guess it wasnt cause i then had to say hey i think your snake is dead and it was.strange

Sorry for your loss. It realy sucks.

Whe I used to feed Flemish giant rabbits to my bigger burms I trimmed all their nails even thu they were dead. I also had a 2 year old African lion die to a hoof from a feeder calf that split and ripped his intestine. That sucked big time as you could tell it was a very painful injury. This is always the case when dealing with live animals.