normal boas $45
hets for albino $55
the economy is killing the reptile trade
i saw a report that its going to get worse and not get better for
like 5-6 years how bad is that going to be for the reptile trade
and when it does get better will the reptile trade bounce back

The chances of you seeing the prices you have seen in the past are slim to none. Unfortunately, there are to many people breeding and then finding that its not there thing. Next thing you know they are dumping loads on the market for super low prices. I actually saw hypo boas for 79 the other day.

All the constant talk of the market and these market threads don't necessarily help in my opinion either...

I know I've said it before but if your not in it for the love of the animals and can't see past the $$$ signs... I don't know what to say... of course there are some out there that do this for a full time living... But either way... As a business owner you have to be able to be prepared to take a loss... or accept the times where things won't move or sell as you planned or wanted them to... Especially in your first few years in business if you are just starting out... I know alot of folks are...

Obviously the economy is all jacked up, there are 1,000's of people breeding now as well to add the the supply vs. demand and as more and more people hear about how bad it is right now in the reptile business and how animals aren't moving... people aren't apt to hold onto those animals and let them sit on the shelf and continue feeding them and seeing those feeder bills when they have car payments, mortgages, childrens bday's and holidays coming up... if anything it only puts fear into those in it for the money causing them to dump their animals and "get out" as quick as they can flooding the market with very under priced animals upsetting many and helping to drive the price lower...


I dunno... I'm just waiting for the day these market threads slow down... Regardless as to what is happening with the economy and the situation with the industry. We're in a damn recession people... and reminding your potential customers isn't going to encourage them to take money out of their pocket and give to you for another mouth to feed as well as cost to house (bedding/heat/caging)...

All the constant talk of the market and these market threads don't necessarily help in my opinion either...

I know I've said it before but if your not in it for the love of the animals and can't see past the $$$ signs... I don't know what to say... of course there are some out there that do this for a full time living... But either way... As a business owner you have to be able to be prepared to take a loss... or accept the times where things won't move or sell as you planned or wanted them to... Especially in your first few years in business if you are just starting out... I know alot of folks are...

Obviously the economy is all jacked up, there are 1,000's of people breeding now as well to add the the supply vs. demand and as more and more people hear about how bad it is right now in the reptile business and how animals aren't moving... people aren't apt to hold onto those animals and let them sit on the shelf and continue feeding them and seeing those feeder bills when they have car payments, mortgages, childrens bday's and holidays coming up... if anything it only puts fear into those in it for the money causing them to dump their animals and "get out" as quick as they can flooding the market with very under priced animals upsetting many and helping to drive the price lower...


I dunno... I'm just waiting for the day these market threads slow down... Regardless as to what is happening with the economy and the situation with the industry. We're in a damn recession people... and reminding your potential customers isn't going to encourage them to take money out of their pocket and give to you for another mouth to feed as well as cost to house (bedding/heat/caging)...

Market discussion is an important part of the hobby/industry, I choose not to sit back and pretend there isn't a problem and not discuss it because someone might read it and not buy from me... if that person does that then that is not the person I want to sell to in the first place.

I can understand people not wanting to sit on animals with feeder bills and the cost of general living, but when people dump entire collections for dirt cheap I think it is sometimes motivated by fear more then reality, not always, but sometimes.

The positive point of people dumping all their boas or bps is that they are "OUT" and can't cause further immediate damage and these people are the ones that never should of been in it in the first place.... probably the type that saw dollars everywhere. I'd say these are the ones that are not in it for the love of the animals.

If we are reminding people about the cost of caging, bedding, feeders etc then good.... they should understand what it takes to keep these animals and the costs associated so we don't see these same people dumping their animals.

Market discussion in my opinion is important.

Market discussion is an important part of the hobby/industry, I choose not to sit back and pretend there isn't a problem and not discuss it because someone might read it and not buy from me... if that person does that then that is not the person I want to sell to in the first place.

I can understand people not wanting to sit on animals with feeder bills and the cost of general living, but when people dump entire collections for dirt cheap I think it is sometimes motivated by fear more then reality, not always, but sometimes.

The positive point of people dumping all their boas or bps is that they are "OUT" and can't cause further immediate damage and these people are the ones that never should of been in it in the first place.... probably the type that saw dollars everywhere. I'd say these are the ones that are not in it for the love of the animals.

If we are reminding people about the cost of caging, bedding, feeders etc then good.... they should understand what it takes to keep these animals and the costs associated so we don't see these same people dumping their animals.

Market discussion in my opinion is important.

i agree

Market discussion is an important part of the hobby/industry, I choose not to sit back and pretend there isn't a problem and not discuss it because someone might read it and not buy from me... if that person does that then that is not the person I want to sell to in the first place.

I can understand people not wanting to sit on animals with feeder bills and the cost of general living, but when people dump entire collections for dirt cheap I think it is sometimes motivated by fear more then reality, not always, but sometimes.

The positive point of people dumping all their boas or bps is that they are "OUT" and can't cause further immediate damage and these people are the ones that never should of been in it in the first place.... probably the type that saw dollars everywhere. I'd say these are the ones that are not in it for the love of the animals.

If we are reminding people about the cost of caging, bedding, feeders etc then good.... they should understand what it takes to keep these animals and the costs associated so we don't see these same people dumping their animals.

Market discussion in my opinion is important.

Another brillant post by Sputnik...:yourock:

Market discussion is very important. Without it we end up with the stupid leading the blind.

It doesn't matter if someone loves the animals or do it for a living thinking its easy money. The market side is very important to all of them and us. Its pointless to say " It should be about the love " and turn around and drop a few hundred or a few grand on breeding stock. Unless someone has more money than sense , $5k snakes aren't bought as pets. They are bought as project animals and in a lot of cases become pets.

The market is crashing due to fear , paranoia and pure stupidity. I see other " frivolous " markets holding just fine as those in charge aren't changing much. The people want to go to a NASCAR race go , football fans are still going to games and wrestling fans are still packing arenas. Why is that? Why are those " frivolous " markets holding steady when so many others are crashing? Because those in the know realize no matter how bad it gets , people want a get away.

Why does our markets suck? 99% of the people in our market have no idea how a proper market or business runs. The first step is ALWAYS drop the price. Why? Because any Tom , **** or Harry with $500 can buy into a " breeding business " they know nothing about. Instead of taking the lumps any start up business would take , they automatically turn to discounts and price slashing because they don't honestly know any better.

Instead of talking to others, they see John Doe drop his prices by $50 so they drop theirs by $75 in some twisted sense of competition instead of focusing on what the true problem is. The true problem is , Whichever nimrod produces the first litter or clutch of the season is generally considered the seasons price setter. Why? Because he produced the first babies of the season HE/ SHE gets to determine what they cost and I must follow suit? The only qualification they have in setting the price is they have babies. Thats it. How are we to determine that Joe Blow , who decided X morph should be 50% of last season , is the guy to set the prices for that morph? In my opinion, following suit is not only hurting the market but supporting the idiotic mindset that has ruined and is continuing to ruin the market.

I've heard it said that cheaper morphs are better because its easier to sell 5 $100 animals than it is 1 $500. OK , I think thats crap and a piss poor excuse to justify slashing prices. Was it truly so hard to sell $20k spiders? Didn't look like it. Was it truly so hard to sell $20k Pins? Don't look like it. Was it truly hard to sell $10k Motley Boas? Nope.

Why is it so hard to sell an animal for $1k now when it really wasn't that difficult to sell $10k animals 2 years ago? We can blame the economy all we want but the truth as I see it is ..... We screwed ourselves by devaluing what we hold dear. We devalued it so fast and furiously that the newer breeders coming in have no sense of what it used to be and see the increasing devaluation as standard market procedures.

Cheaper morphs open up the market to new customers. Yeah , thats crap too. Sugar coat it how you want to let you sleep at night but its still crap no matter how pretty you try to make it look. We all got into it because of a love of these animals but lets get real for a minute. We have the animals or morphs we have because we covet them , we want them and for a lot of us putting them on payment plans is nothing to most of us as long as we have enough cash to pay the rent and buy Ramen Noodles. WE were Ok making those financial sacrifices to get what we wanted. Now we're supposed to be OK making those sacrifices by slashing prices? Yeah , not happening. Try selling me a bridge with that mentality and see fast I whip out a good ol' fashion **** YOU !!!

WE , we being those on both sides of the market , have moved from proper price adjustment and competing by offering the highest quality stock to 50% price cuts yearly and in turn allowing a market for subpar crap to blossom.

What will it take to fix it? Well , the 4 million out of work Americans having a job would help but it falls squarely on us to self regulate our own markets. If someone is slashing prices drastically , don't buy from them. If someone is selling subpar stock , don't buy from them. Instead of slashing prices drastically , offer a realistic price based on the quality of the work YOU put into your collection. You picked your stock , you feed it , you clean it , you select the breedings you want to see happen , YOU should value your efforts more than falling into the pricing trap trying to keep up with or ignorantly compete with the nimrods. When the value of something falls , typically the inner need to covet it as something near holy or to protect its value falls with it. How well would you take care of something that costs $5k compared to something that costs $5. The lesser value has a tendency to become disposable. Break a $5 beer mug , no worries just get another one. Break a $100 crystal beer mug , DAMN IT , THAT WAS $100 OF PURE XXX CRYSTAL. THOSE ARE HARD TO GET!

Price a $5k animal at $50 and see how fast the vet will be asked to put it down instead of treating it if it gets sick by the general run of the keeper / breeder. For $35 to put it down and another $50 to replace it , that person can move right along instead of valuing the animal more than the $150 or so vet bill.

Those I see working at holding steady instead of falling into the pricing trap are the minority. The more we talk about fixing the market problems , the more folks that will join in and become proactive to a solution instead of perpetuating a continuing problem. Choose not to talk about it , then don't bitch when your favorite project is worthless to the point of not even being able to give them away in 6 more months.

Market discussion is very important. Without it we end up with the stupid leading the blind.

If someone is slashing prices drastically , don't buy from them. If someone is selling subpar stock , don't buy from them. Instead of slashing prices drastically , offer a realistic price based on the quality of the work YOU put into your collection. You picked your stock , you feed it , you clean it , you select the breedings you want to see happen , YOU should value your efforts more than falling into the pricing trap trying to keep up with or ignorantly compete with the nimrods.




Don't mean to cut your post down.... but there is your problem. Right above....

So many do it.... and it seems so many expect you to bring your hard efforts down to the same price as the rat race that is under cutting itself daily, thinking they are being competative. And when you don't, they go buy from the person/s selling for $100 less or $500 less in some cases.

But it's worth holding out for that "serious" buyer who recognizes quality when they see it.... you just can't beat it!

Yup. Those serious buyers are the ones that DON'T perpetuate the stupidity. They come in buying value and in turn , sell the end product ( babies ) at a higher value than those looking for a quick buck.

To some it may not seem worth it but in the end , the more we hold out for those types of customers , the less we ultimately support that come in for a flash & burn. That can't help but to work in our favor.

Great post Scott

now for my 2 cents or more like a penny for me.

The economy has an impact on everything. House market, stock market, tourism, and of course leisure and hobbies as well


The problem with the prices is that your right steve it isnt or should not be a money driven hobby. I know for a fact that myself, jeremy (tokays unlimited) and Jeff would do this hobby no matter what. we enjoy even the stupid stuff like cleaning and feedings and its an escape from the real world for us. But in order to justify buyng a 2 K animal i say that caue my biggest purchase was 1600 dollars and on my budget is alot. you have to say well for that i can at least sell some offspring and get some money back but hey who are we kidding most of us herp addicts will more likely say we can sell it to purchase another morph that we would like to keep.

So when our 1600 dolar pastel now sells for 250 its a bit of a let down.If I want to trade my animals up to try for that pied I have dreamed about for 6 years now to no avail I cant now cause my babies are worth a fraction of the price even as a trade in. This all for the love of the animals and a dream to own a specific morph. This is where somene like me who is in it for the reptiles can also be screwed by the market.

now we take a look at the bigger picture. the market is based on the same principals as any market. The fact is the reason reptiles are so available are because of the breeders who do this as a living.

The market crashing causes more shady characters and people who do not care for reptiles to get into the business and soon what you find is the headache and crap that the dog breeding businees has become.

Will the hobby ever fully crash? no will some of the breeders who do this for a living take a significant loss? yes Should we continue to cry and bitch about it? yes if for any reason just for passing on the knowledge and help keep more ignorance from invading a hobby, like Sputnik said.

also forgot to add noone will stop taling about wall street or the house market anytime soon so I wont expect the reptile market talk to stop anytime soon either.




just though of another scary prospect...turds buying up cheaper morphs due those dumping things out of fear. buying up say a large high value collection at half the cost.Just hoping he can make a profit flip like those in the real estate biz.

so you get either

A) lets say some miracle the overall economy booms and the prices of stuff come back up as things improve and nw you got those creeps loving the fact that they can sel their "stock" ,and im talking people with no love for the reptiles, and a price and make a good profit.

or worse

B) the market stays but newer combos retain the value and and market at least stabilizing. This turd decides to dump off wht he can to flippers or worse just cuts some losses after selling enough cheaply to justify a mass culling of his stock as he walks away fr the next get rich quick scheme.


may be just late and too tired not to mention some beer talking but seemed rational as of right now lol

Ever since I saw a photo of an Albino BP back in '91-92 I have always wanted one... and last year I took the plunge and paid 1k for an albino..... and in order to try and recoup some of my costs I also bought a het albino... for a future project. Now fast forward ONE year... and the albino's are now down to $550.

Now since I had wanted one for such a long time... and it had taken them a while to come down to my $$ level... I figured I was safe to try an albino project... and at worst case senerio... I may have to sell the babies at $600-750 in 3 years time.

But If I would have known that by waiting 1 more year... I could have bought 2 for the price of 1... holy hell... Id been better off getting a pair of albinos.. vs breeding an albino to a het.

By the time I can breed my guys... they will prob be down to $250 each... and out of the Albino x het albino... Im not expecting alot of albino babies. I refuse to power feed my animals to get them up to size in 1-1.5 years just to produce babies.

Im in herps for my love of the aminals... Ive been keeping them as pets since '91... but I also want to take the next step and have my animals support me so I can finally make a living at something I love. At this rate... its never gonna happen. I am but one person and I can only take care of XX number of animals by myself.

I have to say that the Ball market has crashed... along with my hopes and dreams of quiting my job, and doing something I love.... does this mean Im gonna sell everything and run... NOPE... it just means I wont be able to quit my day job. I am still gonna be breeding Quality animals...and persuing other projects.... this is a passion for me.... one that I hope someday I can live off of.

That's it, it's a passion for me also....if you don't have the passion for whatever you do then you won't get far...could explain those that dump everything!

I know I've said it before but if your not in it for the love of the animals and can't see past the $$$ signs...

I'm really sick of hearing this. If I didn't love the animals, I would not have them period! Why would I clean the cages of 300+ animals I didn't love? My love/obsession with the animals has caused me to spend the amount of money you could buy a house with. You betcha I want to recover my "investment". I bought only the best over the years and my babies show it.

I have huge expenses: electric bill, fish and wildlife license, caging, bedding, rats, rat food, show costs, advertising costs, accountant fees... the list goes on. So yes, the market is a very big concern of mine. I have a lot of animals available right now too. However, I'm not going to give them away. If anything, many of my boas will get nicer and come into color as they age. Therefore, their cost may go up or at the very least become more firm. So yes, I may have to keep them for awhile, but in the end someone is going to get some awesome animals.

I will use my corns as my example since it is the only thing that I have that still breeds dead on every year...the gargs are close and possible will be my number 1 next year.

I have spent probably a little over $500 on corns over the years, some of them I don't have anymore for one reason or another but I can tell you that even with the many (and I mean many) babies that I have gifted away I haven't lost a single dime...why because they are healthy and they will continue to breed for many more years along with their offspring. I have reinvested my money right back into them or some other project and even if I never see a dime from the other project I know my money is safe tied up with my stock. Always improve it and always keep it healthy and it will return a profit over the years...and remember we are talking about $10-20 snakes here, which they were when I started with them.

I'm really sick of hearing this. If I didn't love the animals, I would not have them period! Why would I clean the cages of 300+ animals I didn't love? My love/obsession with the animals has caused me to spend the amount of money you could buy a house with. You betcha I want to recover my "investment". I bought only the best over the years and my babies show it.

I have huge expenses: electric bill, fish and wildlife license, caging, bedding, rats, rat food, show costs, advertising costs, accountant fees... the list goes on. So yes, the market is a very big concern of mine. I have a lot of animals available right now too. However, I'm not going to give them away. If anything, many of my boas will get nicer and come into color as they age. Therefore, their cost may go up or at the very least become more firm. So yes, I may have to keep them for awhile, but in the end someone is going to get some awesome animals.

Ease up on that crap until I determine if you have anything I want and generate the funds for it. Once I'm done , you may resume your standards.

Carry On! :yessir:

:lol: Drop me a line, Bryon. I'll do good by you.

:lol: Drop me a line, Bryon. I'll do good by you.

Thanks Brother. If I get the settlement I want , I'm making it good for a couple of folks. :yessir:

Damn , now I gotta go look to see what you have. :lol:

Thanks Brother. If I get the settlement I want , I'm making it good for a couple of folks. :yessir:

Damn , now I gotta go look to see what you have. :lol:

I looked earlier, some nice stuff.... I need cash, may have to go hit a 7/11 or something. :machinegun:

I think this is a classic case of supporting the hobby/industry... Hell, I'll never make a profit on anything because it gets spent on more reptiles.... LOL

Same here Scott. We're just about ready to close off the boa colony and start focusing on a few python species & the hoggies. Hopefully we'll be full up on we want in the next 2 years and put the extra cash into upgrading equipment and such.

That's it, it's a passion for me also....if you don't have the passion for whatever you do then you won't get far...could explain those that dump everything!


Yep.... Im here for the long haul... even IF I cant quit my day job.

its a passionfor too
i remember when albino burm went for 2k and albino retics went for 20k
now the albino burm around $175 and albino retics about $700
but it took years for them to come down but whats going on now is crazy
i how it slows down it makes my wife really mad the prices are dropping

Market discussion is very important. Without it we end up with the stupid leading the blind.

It doesn't matter if someone loves the animals or do it for a living thinking its easy money. The market side is very important to all of them and us. Its pointless to say " It should be about the love " and turn around and drop a few hundred or a few grand on breeding stock. Unless someone has more money than sense , $5k snakes aren't bought as pets. They are bought as project animals and in a lot of cases become pets.

The market is crashing due to fear , paranoia and pure stupidity. I see other " frivolous " markets holding just fine as those in charge aren't changing much. The people want to go to a NASCAR race go , football fans are still going to games and wrestling fans are still packing arenas. Why is that? Why are those " frivolous " markets holding steady when so many others are crashing? Because those in the know realize no matter how bad it gets , people want a get away.

Why does our markets suck? 99% of the people in our market have no idea how a proper market or business runs. The first step is ALWAYS drop the price. Why? Because any Tom , **** or Harry with $500 can buy into a " breeding business " they know nothing about. Instead of taking the lumps any start up business would take , they automatically turn to discounts and price slashing because they don't honestly know any better.

Instead of talking to others, they see John Doe drop his prices by $50 so they drop theirs by $75 in some twisted sense of competition instead of focusing on what the true problem is. The true problem is , Whichever nimrod produces the first litter or clutch of the season is generally considered the seasons price setter. Why? Because he produced the first babies of the season HE/ SHE gets to determine what they cost and I must follow suit? The only qualification they have in setting the price is they have babies. Thats it. How are we to determine that Joe Blow , who decided X morph should be 50% of last season , is the guy to set the prices for that morph? In my opinion, following suit is not only hurting the market but supporting the idiotic mindset that has ruined and is continuing to ruin the market.

I've heard it said that cheaper morphs are better because its easier to sell 5 $100 animals than it is 1 $500. OK , I think thats crap and a piss poor excuse to justify slashing prices. Was it truly so hard to sell $20k spiders? Didn't look like it. Was it truly so hard to sell $20k Pins? Don't look like it. Was it truly hard to sell $10k Motley Boas? Nope.

Why is it so hard to sell an animal for $1k now when it really wasn't that difficult to sell $10k animals 2 years ago? We can blame the economy all we want but the truth as I see it is ..... We screwed ourselves by devaluing what we hold dear. We devalued it so fast and furiously that the newer breeders coming in have no sense of what it used to be and see the increasing devaluation as standard market procedures.

Cheaper morphs open up the market to new customers. Yeah , thats crap too. Sugar coat it how you want to let you sleep at night but its still crap no matter how pretty you try to make it look. We all got into it because of a love of these animals but lets get real for a minute. We have the animals or morphs we have because we covet them , we want them and for a lot of us putting them on payment plans is nothing to most of us as long as we have enough cash to pay the rent and buy Ramen Noodles. WE were Ok making those financial sacrifices to get what we wanted. Now we're supposed to be OK making those sacrifices by slashing prices? Yeah , not happening. Try selling me a bridge with that mentality and see fast I whip out a good ol' fashion **** YOU !!!

WE , we being those on both sides of the market , have moved from proper price adjustment and competing by offering the highest quality stock to 50% price cuts yearly and in turn allowing a market for subpar crap to blossom.

What will it take to fix it? Well , the 4 million out of work Americans having a job would help but it falls squarely on us to self regulate our own markets. If someone is slashing prices drastically , don't buy from them. If someone is selling subpar stock , don't buy from them. Instead of slashing prices drastically , offer a realistic price based on the quality of the work YOU put into your collection. You picked your stock , you feed it , you clean it , you select the breedings you want to see happen , YOU should value your efforts more than falling into the pricing trap trying to keep up with or ignorantly compete with the nimrods. When the value of something falls , typically the inner need to covet it as something near holy or to protect its value falls with it. How well would you take care of something that costs $5k compared to something that costs $5. The lesser value has a tendency to become disposable. Break a $5 beer mug , no worries just get another one. Break a $100 crystal beer mug , DAMN IT , THAT WAS $100 OF PURE XXX CRYSTAL. THOSE ARE HARD TO GET!

Price a $5k animal at $50 and see how fast the vet will be asked to put it down instead of treating it if it gets sick by the general run of the keeper / breeder. For $35 to put it down and another $50 to replace it , that person can move right along instead of valuing the animal more than the $150 or so vet bill.

Those I see working at holding steady instead of falling into the pricing trap are the minority. The more we talk about fixing the market problems , the more folks that will join in and become proactive to a solution instead of perpetuating a continuing problem. Choose not to talk about it , then don't bitch when your favorite project is worthless to the point of not even being able to give them away in 6 more months.

Excellent post brother - Excellent...:rockon:

I'm really sick of hearing this. If I didn't love the animals, I would not have them period! Why would I clean the cages of 300+ animals I didn't love? My love/obsession with the animals has caused me to spend the amount of money you could buy a house with. You betcha I want to recover my "investment". I bought only the best over the years and my babies show it.

I have huge expenses: electric bill, fish and wildlife license, caging, bedding, rats, rat food, show costs, advertising costs, accountant fees... the list goes on. So yes, the market is a very big concern of mine. I have a lot of animals available right now too. However, I'm not going to give them away. If anything, many of my boas will get nicer and come into color as they age. Therefore, their cost may go up or at the very least become more firm. So yes, I may have to keep them for awhile, but in the end someone is going to get some awesome animals.

Amen Larry...Some people just don't get it and I'll leave it at that...

I looked earlier, some nice stuff.... I need cash, may have to go hit a 7/11 or something. :machinegun:

I think this is a classic case of supporting the hobby/industry... Hell, I'll never make a profit on anything because it gets spent on more reptiles.... LOL

Thanks, Man. I really need to take new pictures. Many of the pictures are older and don't do the animal justice. Maybe I'll try and do that this weekend. Plus I still haven't listed a bunch of animals.

I'm the same way. I haven't recovered my investment yet let alone making a profit. There are still so many animals I would like to have. Only a couple higher end boas (ie: aztec, albino motley,leopard), but tons of ball morphs. I'm still learning about the ball morphs. I really wish I would have gotten into them sooner. When I'm at a show I love talking with Graziani learning about all the morphs. Man that guy can talk genetics!

So yes, any money I make somehow goes back into supporting or buying animals. It seems just as I sell an animal I need more rats, rat feed, or something. Right now I need more racks.

So yes, any money I make somehow goes back into supporting or buying animals. It seems just as I sell an animal I need more rats, rat feed, or something. Right now I need more racks.

Its a vicious never ending cycle. There will always be something else ya need or want :)

That is what makes this so great. There is always something new.