Varanus99
11-26-2008, 08:06 AM
Whenever I get an interesting question via PM or email I like to share it here as I think others might be interested. Or maybe I just like the sound of my fingers hitting the keyboard. It is rather soothing. Clickity click clack. Anywho lets move forward, shall we?
I got a question about monitors and fish tanks. Someone asked me if it was alright to keep a monitor in a fish tank. They had read on another forum that fish tanks KILL monitors, fish tanks are for fish and got flamed pretty bad for even asking. Id like to give me views on this topic flame-free.
First let's break down to bare bones what a monitor cage is. It's a box. It's a box that you keep an animal in. Thats all any cage is. No matter how fancy you dress it up if its got a bottom, four sides and a top its a box. What type of box you are using doesnt matter as much as the question "Does ths box support the animal?"
In the case of fish tanks some people are under the impression that they dehydrate monitors. By itself a fish isnt going to do a damn thing. The problem is the top. If a monitor cage is set up properly its going to have a nice high temp basking spot in there. Hot air moves. And if you're using a screen top all your heat AND your humidity is gonna shoot right out of there. So the problem is not so much the fish tanks themselves but the screens that are often used. Simply put, they let your humidity out and that turns your lizard into beef jerky.
Another problem. New keepers will often go the easy route and put a dome light on top of the screen. Ok, so you got a tank that's lets say 12" high, add another 8" for the dome. So your bulb is 18" away from the lizard sitting on the bottom of the cage. Assuming you arent using an elevated basking platform and if you're a newbie you probably arent. You are going to need one heck of a bulb to throw enough heat that far. And Im talking about a small tank here. If you have a 55 gallon which is 21" high good luck with that. Ive seen people use crazy 250 watt bulbs and they still cant get their spots up to the right temperature. The bulb is just too far away. Frank Retes once said:
"White man build big fire, sit far away. Indian build small fire, sit close"
In other words I find its better to bring the heat to closer to the lizard rather than use massive bulbs. Those bulbs suck a lot of juice and can be more dangerous to use. Fish tanks are designed for, well, viewing fish. So most tend to be long, high and narrow. Not the best design for a monitor cage.
As a side note I use normal, GE flood lights to heat my cages. I use 30 and 50 watts depending on the cage and I can hit 150 degrees no problem.
I do believe for hatchlings and juvies tanks can be used effectively. You just need to modify your top. Since there are no "monitor tank tops" commercially available that I know of you will have to build your own. It can be very simple. Probably the easiest way is to make the top out of plexiglass or some combination of plexiglass and wood. Or, if you're lazy like me you can utilize a screen top to hold your plexi and just cover it. I would suggest mounting the light *inside* the cage as this not only gets the bulb closer to the animals but helps with heat loss. If you do it right you can use a very small bulb and still hit your target of 130-150 degrees.
There are any number of ways to do this. You can use straight plexi and put hinges on it. You can use a wood frame and mount your plexi to that. Or you can use a screen as a base and work from there. I always use some wood because I really dont enjoy working with plexi. I like to have something more solid to mount my lights to. If its a small cage you may not even need hinges, you can simply slide the top to the side or remove it complete when you need to get in there.
What you want is very little venting. Reptiles dont respire the same way we do. They dont need as much airflow as we sometimes think they do and too much can be detrimental. I use very, very little venting in my cages and I have yet to have a lizard suffocate :). You want that top to hold in humidity. I like to see just a little bit of condensation at the base or around the water bowl. I dont use a hydrometer, I go by feel. You dont want it raining in there but a little bit of condensation is fine. Most likely you will only get that on the cool side. Which is great since it gives the lizard options which makes me all giddy.
Closed tops also help to control the heat. Its much easier to heat a cage with a closed top than with an open one. If you use a closed top you will find that its not only better for the basking spot but better for the "cool" side as well.
The glass tanks will also allow you to use a deep, moist substrate with no danger of leaking or rotting.
I wouldnt use anything smaller than a 20 gallon long. Even for hatchlings. I find it much easier to establish a gradient with a larger tank. 10 gallons, in my opinion, are just too small. Not saying its impossible just saying that personally I find it easier to use a larger tank even for small hatchlings. And I think they like the extra space.
Another good tank is the 40 gallon breeder which is 36" L x 18" W. Thats good surface area. This could be their jump up cage before they move in to their permanent home. How long they last in there will depend on the species. The smaller guys can go a while. A blackthroat or water wont last long at all. Maybe a few months and hes gonna need bigger quarters.
Now, while I have nothing against fish tanks for babies, some juvies and temporary cages I dont think they work very well for adults at all. Most of us have seen a big sav moping around in a 55 gallon. People just love to stuff savs into 55 gallon tanks. They dont make a fish tank suitable for medium or God forbid large species of monitors. Even for the little guys like ackies I much prefer troughs or some other form of custom built enclosure. Again, not that I hate fish tanks its just the dimensions are all wrong. Plus they are expensive and extremely heavy. Look at it this way, the minimum recommended cage size for an adult ackie is 4x2. Which is a touch small MHO but it would do ok in there. That equates to a 120 gallon tank which weighs over 200lbs and is gonna cost you some coin unless you find a "leaker" or buy one at a garage sale. Even if you do, Id still say go for something else. While small fish tanks can be convenient BIG fish tanks are a pain in the you-know-what.
And thats all I got say about that. :yessir:
I got a question about monitors and fish tanks. Someone asked me if it was alright to keep a monitor in a fish tank. They had read on another forum that fish tanks KILL monitors, fish tanks are for fish and got flamed pretty bad for even asking. Id like to give me views on this topic flame-free.
First let's break down to bare bones what a monitor cage is. It's a box. It's a box that you keep an animal in. Thats all any cage is. No matter how fancy you dress it up if its got a bottom, four sides and a top its a box. What type of box you are using doesnt matter as much as the question "Does ths box support the animal?"
In the case of fish tanks some people are under the impression that they dehydrate monitors. By itself a fish isnt going to do a damn thing. The problem is the top. If a monitor cage is set up properly its going to have a nice high temp basking spot in there. Hot air moves. And if you're using a screen top all your heat AND your humidity is gonna shoot right out of there. So the problem is not so much the fish tanks themselves but the screens that are often used. Simply put, they let your humidity out and that turns your lizard into beef jerky.
Another problem. New keepers will often go the easy route and put a dome light on top of the screen. Ok, so you got a tank that's lets say 12" high, add another 8" for the dome. So your bulb is 18" away from the lizard sitting on the bottom of the cage. Assuming you arent using an elevated basking platform and if you're a newbie you probably arent. You are going to need one heck of a bulb to throw enough heat that far. And Im talking about a small tank here. If you have a 55 gallon which is 21" high good luck with that. Ive seen people use crazy 250 watt bulbs and they still cant get their spots up to the right temperature. The bulb is just too far away. Frank Retes once said:
"White man build big fire, sit far away. Indian build small fire, sit close"
In other words I find its better to bring the heat to closer to the lizard rather than use massive bulbs. Those bulbs suck a lot of juice and can be more dangerous to use. Fish tanks are designed for, well, viewing fish. So most tend to be long, high and narrow. Not the best design for a monitor cage.
As a side note I use normal, GE flood lights to heat my cages. I use 30 and 50 watts depending on the cage and I can hit 150 degrees no problem.
I do believe for hatchlings and juvies tanks can be used effectively. You just need to modify your top. Since there are no "monitor tank tops" commercially available that I know of you will have to build your own. It can be very simple. Probably the easiest way is to make the top out of plexiglass or some combination of plexiglass and wood. Or, if you're lazy like me you can utilize a screen top to hold your plexi and just cover it. I would suggest mounting the light *inside* the cage as this not only gets the bulb closer to the animals but helps with heat loss. If you do it right you can use a very small bulb and still hit your target of 130-150 degrees.
There are any number of ways to do this. You can use straight plexi and put hinges on it. You can use a wood frame and mount your plexi to that. Or you can use a screen as a base and work from there. I always use some wood because I really dont enjoy working with plexi. I like to have something more solid to mount my lights to. If its a small cage you may not even need hinges, you can simply slide the top to the side or remove it complete when you need to get in there.
What you want is very little venting. Reptiles dont respire the same way we do. They dont need as much airflow as we sometimes think they do and too much can be detrimental. I use very, very little venting in my cages and I have yet to have a lizard suffocate :). You want that top to hold in humidity. I like to see just a little bit of condensation at the base or around the water bowl. I dont use a hydrometer, I go by feel. You dont want it raining in there but a little bit of condensation is fine. Most likely you will only get that on the cool side. Which is great since it gives the lizard options which makes me all giddy.
Closed tops also help to control the heat. Its much easier to heat a cage with a closed top than with an open one. If you use a closed top you will find that its not only better for the basking spot but better for the "cool" side as well.
The glass tanks will also allow you to use a deep, moist substrate with no danger of leaking or rotting.
I wouldnt use anything smaller than a 20 gallon long. Even for hatchlings. I find it much easier to establish a gradient with a larger tank. 10 gallons, in my opinion, are just too small. Not saying its impossible just saying that personally I find it easier to use a larger tank even for small hatchlings. And I think they like the extra space.
Another good tank is the 40 gallon breeder which is 36" L x 18" W. Thats good surface area. This could be their jump up cage before they move in to their permanent home. How long they last in there will depend on the species. The smaller guys can go a while. A blackthroat or water wont last long at all. Maybe a few months and hes gonna need bigger quarters.
Now, while I have nothing against fish tanks for babies, some juvies and temporary cages I dont think they work very well for adults at all. Most of us have seen a big sav moping around in a 55 gallon. People just love to stuff savs into 55 gallon tanks. They dont make a fish tank suitable for medium or God forbid large species of monitors. Even for the little guys like ackies I much prefer troughs or some other form of custom built enclosure. Again, not that I hate fish tanks its just the dimensions are all wrong. Plus they are expensive and extremely heavy. Look at it this way, the minimum recommended cage size for an adult ackie is 4x2. Which is a touch small MHO but it would do ok in there. That equates to a 120 gallon tank which weighs over 200lbs and is gonna cost you some coin unless you find a "leaker" or buy one at a garage sale. Even if you do, Id still say go for something else. While small fish tanks can be convenient BIG fish tanks are a pain in the you-know-what.
And thats all I got say about that. :yessir: