View Full Version : Nesting


Varanus99
11-30-2008, 08:36 PM
Hey hey. Its the B-I-G to the V, yo. Call me Big V got more game than coleco.

Oof that was bad. Ahem.

Im supposed to be working on an ackie write up but I dont know what direction I want to go in with that exactly. So in the meantime Id like to dig in (pun intended I assure you) to one of my favorite monitory topics: nesting.

You've heard me talk about deep substrates before. As important as I feel they are for single animals or juvies they are of paramount importance when it comes to breeding pairs. Gravid females can be a bit fussy about where they deposit their eggs. And if they cant find a spot they like it stresses them out big time. They may even die eggbound. Or, they may scatter the eggs around the cage. Two problems there. First those eggs are probably no good and even worse the female has just been put through the ringer. Its gonna take her a while to rebound from that and some folks believe that females who fail to nest properly numerous times may have a greatly reduced lifespan.

When it comes to ackies and monitors in general once they finish breeding you want those eggs OUT of the female as soon as possible. Ideally after copulation is finished the female will lay her eggs in 14-20 days. I dont like anything past 25 days because that is telling me the conditions arent right. She's holding them too long. So I try to provide numerous nesting opportunities and let her pick what she likes best.

There are a couple ways to set up nesting. My favorite way and the one most popular with most breeders Ive spoken to is a deep substrate throughout the entire cage. By doing this you have now provided the maximum nesting spots that cage will allow. Of course, you have to use a good substrate. I wont go into that here since thats in the substrate thread but suffice to say whatever you are using should be able to hold a burrow. If it cant its no good. Also even if the animals arent breeding they should be digging in it. If they're not...bingo...no good. Ok, lets say you have a good, deep substrate that the female is ok with (darn females never happy ;) ). You can further increase your chance of a successful nesting by using a few tricks. I like to take a cork bark tube and bury it in the substrate with just a couple inches hanging out. They like this and will sometimes entire the tube, excavate whatever is inside and continue the burrow once they reach the other side of the tube. Ive also buried cork bark flats and they have used that as a "roof" for their burrow. But more often than not they just pick their own spot. Almost always on the warmer side of the cage.

Ive temped gunned monitor nests. Its uncanny. They always seem to be 84-86 degrees. Which is the recommended incubation temperature window. Those females know what they're doing.

I will somtimes make a big pile of substrate on the warm side when I know a female is getting ready to go. Sometimes they like that. And sometimes they dig under the water bowl. Heh.

When she gets close to laying you will notice her doing "test digs". She will be very active, nosing around the cage. Dirt flying everywhere. She may dig out one spot, decide she doesnt like it for whatever reason and move on. But you can usually tell when you have a gravid female just by looking at the cage. Looks like a bad parking lot, lots of potholes. The male will sometimes join in on these activities. Or he may just wanna be left out of the whole ordeal and spend most of his time in his own private burrow. Yeah monitors deadbeat dads too. She may also stop eating a few days before she lays.

Ok, lets say for the sake of arguement you can not provide a deep substrate in the whole cage. Shame on you. You can try using a nest box. Snakes, leopard geckos and many other species are very good about nest boxes. When I kept colubrids they always dropped their eggs in the nest box. Maybe once in a rare while a female would just plunk them down any where but 95% went in the nestbox. I have leopard geckos now and they *always* use the nestbox. Well, monitors arent so good. Sometimes they may take to it, sometimes no. You have to observe them and see if the female is entering it. Look for test digs. You will need a good sized box filled almost to the top with substrate and a small hole cut in the top. I like to use a dark box since I think they prefer to lay in total darkness and a clear box will let too much light in. Wood boxes work but I prefer Rubbermaid tubs since they are lighter and last forever. Some folks have even gone so far as to use flexible, black plastic pipe to make tunnels for the lizards to enter the boxes so no light gets in ther at all. I havent tried that myself but its one to grow on.

You will have to temp check your nestbox to make sure its in a good range. Some keepers will even use heated nestboxes if necessary. Having more than one if the cage is large enough is not a bad idea either.

I should probably mention that some monitors like to lay their eggs in or under something while others are happy just to dig a hole, drop and bury. Kimberlys, blackheads and Id betcha green trees like to lay in hollow logs or under cork bark. Or perhaps even a well placed nest box. Ackies, flavis, argus, savs and other diggers are usually content with a hole in the ground. Not to say they wont go for the in/under thing. But they will often just dig a hole. Done.

A third option is a nesting cage. You remove the female from the main cage and place her by herself in a cage specifically set up for nesting. I cant say Im a big fan of this as you're moving a gravid female to a new environment. I did use this method once. When I got a new trio of ackies and I was surprised by one of the females becoming gravid so quickly. I had them in a raise up cage and I needed to get those eggs out of her so I threw together a nesting cage right quick. I made a big mountain on one side and kinda sloped it down to the other. Then layed a cork bark flat on the slope. Set up a heat lamp over the mountain and voila. Not a perfect situation but she nested perfectly. I got lucky. A nesting cage is an option but I cant really say its the best way to go. But in a pinch if set up properly it can work.

Ok, so Momma has picked her spot and dug a hole. She will now back into it. Thats the sign she aint fooling around no more she's gonna pop. She will back in, usually disappear out of site and lay her eggs. She may be down for 24-48 hours. Do NOT bother her. She's fine. Anything you do will only make things worse, not better. I had one young guy who wrote me afraid she was gonna suffocate since her burrow caved in a little. Not gonna happen. The best thing you can do is leave her alone.

When she's finished she will emerge tired, deflated and ravenous. Get the buffet ready she's gonna eat like there's no tomorrow. Good nutrition and hydration are important to her recovery from egg laying. Feed her well and often. I prefer to give post laying females small meals to start out. Plenty of them, but small portions. Maybe Im just paranoid but I think its a little easier on her system. And dont be shy with the calcium and vitamins. If she dropped her eggs in a reasonable time frame after copulation and nested ok she should snap back very quickly.

Once she's done you can go ahead and carefully dig up the eggs. Then its on to the incubator! But thats another story, true believers.

Bush-League nesting. Diehard. :yessir:

FloridaHogs
11-30-2008, 09:22 PM
Great info there V! Never new much about monitors, but I am learning with post like this.

Varanus99
11-30-2008, 09:23 PM
I gotta pay you back for all the hognose info Im glomming off ya :cheers:

JOHNS6068
11-30-2008, 09:24 PM
Great info there V! Never new much about monitors, but I am learning with post like this.

Same here as well it's cool to learn stuff like this even though I don't keep any monitors it's still pretty neat. Thanks V

Tama
11-30-2008, 09:56 PM
Love the way you present all your information...I've said all this before I know....but man do I learn a lot from your posts.:yourock:

JChandler
12-01-2008, 07:19 AM
How long do you find them in the holes testing the temps? To show this behavior fascinates me to no end (even though it is normal for them it is new to me)...I used to have one female bearded dragon that would test sites but the others just laid where ever I wet the surface down for them. Always amazed by the simplest things like that.

Great post V!

Varanus99
12-01-2008, 08:08 AM
It is fascinating to watch them do their thing.

I honestly dont know exactly what they are doing with their test digs. They may be checking temps, humidity, security, the quality of the soil or some combination thereof. But I do know for sure they are looking for certain conditions. And if they dont find it trouble is a' brewin'.

From what I have seen they dont spend all that much time in the test dig holes. Its not even a "complete" burrow if you will. They usually dig down so about half their body will fit. Sometimes a little more than that. They dont back into it. They dig, look around, dig, look around, push their head into every area of the hole and then look up with a pile of dirt on their nose. They may walk around it then go back to more digging. They might spend 10-15 minutes and decide I dont like this and split. Or they might spend a day messing around with the same hole and Ill think Ok this is it and then they abandon it. Sometimes they just throw a little dirt around in one spot, walk maybe 6 inches away, throw some more dirt, walk again, and then do an actual dig.

Monitors seem very attuned to temperatures. They are very specific. Ive had iguanas in the past and they would just hit the basking branch under the heat lamp and sit. Come what may. The varanids are more subtle. If you give them a basking platform they may start at the hottest spot. Then, out of the blue, they will delibrately move a couples inches over thus dropping their temp a few degrees. Then move down a level of the stack. Then when they are warm enough they will leave the basking site and go about their business. Only to return later if they feel the need. Same thing on the ground. Besides nesting burrows they create living burrows where they usually spend the night and sometimes days at a time if they arent hungry. Some of these holes are on the cooler end and some on the warm side. Kinda like a summer cottage and a winter retreat.


Its not surprising that you mention that bearded dragons are often content to lay their eggs at a spot provided by the keeper. Leopard geckos do that to. Could be one of the reasons we have so many of them. We can tell them where to lay their eggs and they usually will go along with the plan. Monitors have their own agenda. Sometimes you can get lucky and coax them into a nestbox or a certain spot but often they will throw you a curve. Ive had to remove all the cage furniture and dig up a whole trough to find eggs because once they bury them the nest site can be hard to spot. Which is the idea. They are programmed to hide those eggs so other animals cant easily find them. And they do a pretty good job.

anendeloflorien
12-01-2008, 08:23 AM
Great stuff as always V! You definitely know your monitors :yourock: I know who I'm gonna be looking up if I ever decide to get one :cheers:

tokaysunlimited
12-01-2008, 08:40 AM
Speak the truth man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:yessir:
Enough said!:rockon:

Varanus99
12-01-2008, 08:43 AM
Great stuff as always V! You definitely know your monitors :yourock: I know who I'm gonna be looking up if I ever decide to get one :cheers:

Thank you.

Ive said it before though. Im just a funnel. I take the information Ive gathered from people like Retes, Robyn, Ravi and others and try to put it together in a cohesive easily understood format. Along with my own experiences thrown in for good measure.

The problem with monitor information is twofold. First, its scattered. Its all over the place. A lot of the BEST stuff can be found in posts by Retes, Lemm and some lesser known but talented people. But in order to access this information you will have to dig through who knows how many posts on who knows how many sites. Ive already taken care of that, LOL!

Second, the monitor literature I find usually...not always mind you...is either way too simple, extremely complicated or just plain wrong. Some folks may not be interested in how a certain species was classified. Or the differences in scalation between an argus and a flavi. So I eliminate all that hubbub and try to bring he nuts and bolts. The basics people need to keep their animals thriving. At least thats my goal.

Varanus99
12-01-2008, 08:44 AM
Speak the truth man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:yessir:
Enough said!:rockon:


If you agree than I know I hit the mark. :yessir:

tokaysunlimited
12-01-2008, 08:50 AM
If you agree than I know I hit the mark. :yessir:
Well we discussed the whole nesting thing the other night and pretty much came to the same conclusion.:cheers:

luciddream
12-01-2008, 01:11 PM
Nice post. Always love the info.

I know you don't keep green trees, probably not alot of people out there keep them for very long, but what are your thoughts on giving them nesting areas for a single animal. I've read about some kinds of nesting habits they may have while laying, but do you think it may be advantageous to give a male a place to dig? I don't have a whole lot of substrate in my green tree's cage, it's maybe 3 or 4 inches thick. He seems to nose around in it every once in a while, but I have never really seen him "dig" in it. He may throw some around sometimes, but I've never seen him hit the floor of the cage. Do you think he might dig if given a deeper substrate or maybe a different substrate? I'm thinking that he probably is doing all he will ever do in regards to digging, but I'm interested in others thoughts on it. I suppose it couldn't hurt to give him some extra dirt to dig in if he ever chose to do so.

tokaysunlimited
12-01-2008, 01:41 PM
Nice post. Always love the info.

I know you don't keep green trees, probably not alot of people out there keep them for very long, but what are your thoughts on giving them nesting areas for a single animal. I've read about some kinds of nesting habits they may have while laying, but do you think it may be advantageous to give a male a place to dig? I don't have a whole lot of substrate in my green tree's cage, it's maybe 3 or 4 inches thick. He seems to nose around in it every once in a while, but I have never really seen him "dig" in it. He may throw some around sometimes, but I've never seen him hit the floor of the cage. Do you think he might dig if given a deeper substrate or maybe a different substrate? I'm thinking that he probably is doing all he will ever do in regards to digging, but I'm interested in others thoughts on it. I suppose it couldn't hurt to give him some extra dirt to dig in if he ever chose to do so.
My Beccari seem to like to dig a bit once in a while with a deeper substrate.
Although the nesting with tree monitors is pretty much a whole different ball game.
I have made slightly a elevated nesting box with a heat pad underneath it hooked up to a thermostat and have had great success with the female plopping her eggs inside.

luciddream
12-01-2008, 02:12 PM
My Beccari seem to like to dig a bit once in a while with a deeper substrate.
Although the nesting with tree monitors is pretty much a whole different ball game.
I have made slightly a elevated nesting box with a heat pad underneath it hooked up to a thermostat and have had great success with the female plopping her eggs inside.

Nifty. Thanks for the info. I want to eventually keep some becarri as well, but I only have the space to dedicate to the prasinus right now. I think I'm going to try giving him a deeper substrate next time I clean his cage.

What are you using as a nest box? I've got a c0ckatiel nest box thingy that I widened the entry hole of attached to the side of his cage suspended about three quarters up his cage. He sleeps in there sometimes, but most of the time he sleeps attached to the pvc coated hardware cloth I have on the walls of his cage or in a cork tube.

Also, what did you use as insude the nestbox? How many becarri have you managed to hatch out?

tokaysunlimited
12-01-2008, 02:23 PM
Nifty. Thanks for the info. I want to eventually keep some becarri as well, but I only have the space to dedicate to the prasinus right now. I think I'm going to try giving him a deeper substrate next time I clean his cage.

What are you using as a nest box? I've got a c0ckatiel nest box thingy that I widened the entry hole of attached to the side of his cage suspended about three quarters up his cage. He sleeps in there sometimes, but most of the time he sleeps attached to the pvc coated hardware cloth I have on the walls of his cage or in a cork tube.

Also, what did you use as insude the nestbox? How many becarri have you managed to hatch out?
I just made a nest box thats hinged with a hole in the top instead of the front.
One is about 2' under one of the basking lamps.In generall most tree monitors and well monitors in general,will hang half in half out of the nest box.
As far as a substrate if its a normal hidebox i just use spagnum moss.
If its for egg deposition i use sand and peat mix.
As i am sure V can tell you layering is the best way to make there digs hold up.
Throw a 2 inch layer of the mix down,wet it and pack it down hard,then the next layer and so on.
Oh and V.Sorry buddy wasnt trying to hijack your thread.

Varanus99
12-01-2008, 05:52 PM
No problem, TK. Please, I implore you, feel free to jump in. You are more experienced with tree monitors than I am.

Lucid, I agree with TK. From what I have seen, read and heard from tree monitor breeders they dont seem to dig as often as the more terrestrial species. But, if given the chance, just about any monitor will dig at one time or another. So I think it would be a fine idea to give him a deeper substrate and allow him to dig if he so desires. Its all about choices. Give them the choices and let them make the decisions.

The deep substrate provides more than just a retreat. It helps with humidity and also gives the monitor something to do. Exercise if you will. I look at deep substrates the same way I look at a hamster wheel. Lets face it, even if we give our lizards big cages they can go from one side to the other in a few seconds. Not really exercise. But, like a hamster wheel, they can dig for hours! And they often do. Dig, dig, dig never really getting any where but they dont know that! LOL!

Deep substrates or good nest boxes are critical for nesting females. But I think single animals will benefit from them as well. Even a single male will probably like to dig into a nice elevated box filled with some moist material of some kind.

So do I think a green tree NEEDS a deep substrate the way an ackie or argus does? Probably not. But would it be a nice addition to the enclosure? Yeppers.

Im not suprised that your guy prefers sleeping in elevated hiding places rather than on the ground. Very common.

As far as my mix I use screened topsoil, sand and vermiculite. Adjusted based on the species. For the tree guys I would bet dollars to donuts they would appreciate a finer mix than a sav. So I might go with more sand, less dirt and maybe even some coco fiber to lighten it up. My Kimberlys which arent tree monitors per se but sure do act like them sometimes appreciate the coco fiber. But as TK said a peat mix can work as well. Or spagnum moss. Lots of stuff can work you just have to tweak it. Bottom line if the lizard likes it bingo. If he doesnt you gotta try something else.

Oh, and layering is the bomb diggity!

As far as my nest boxes I just use Rubbermaid tubs of the appropriate size with a hole cut in the top. A c0ckatiel box sounds like a groovy idea. Why not? My boxes arent mounted so for me its a no brainer. If you are mounting the box you may want to use something sturdier than plastic. And a c0ckatiel box fits the bill. If hes using it cool.

luciddream
12-02-2008, 12:59 PM
Thanks again for all the info. It's greatly appreciated. I have kept monitors and tegus in the past, but this is my first tree monitor. He seems to be thriving and all, but I've only had him for 9 months or so, and want to make sure I can provide everything he needs. I'd love to be able to measure my success with tree monitors based on generations of monitors, but I only have a male right now, so that will have to wait a while. Again, thanks for all the great nesting info.