So I am wondering if I am alone in getting pissed off when I see animals for sale like crayfish snakes, mudsnakes, brahminy (sp) blind snakes, scarlet snakes, and so on that because of dietary requirements just can not do well in captivity. I am not even against imports, though I would love to see more quality importers, but I personally refuse to buy from these guys that sell the above mentioned animals even when they do have something I want.

DTS is a perfect example of this crap.

Blind snakes
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=766123

Mud snakes
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=775808

(Not gonna post the whole ad here but $25 for the first $75 for the second and next to no chance for long term survival for either)

Yet he has a pair of snakes that I desperately want but refuse to buy from HIM because of these ads.

So are any of you like this as well? Do you base your buying off the overall seller practices?? I know flippers are frowned upon here but what about commercial collectors and the companies that buy anything and try to sell it for a buck?? Like I said I am not even that much against WC sales really, though I do have a whole set of complex moral stances on that subject too.

Does anybody else let one animal in horrible condition or one animal that has no chance to live in captivity but still being offered for sale by a seller, do you let those things drive you from doing business with said seller ever again??

Jason

Hmmmm, trying to formulate a good response to that, as a business.
We won't buy things that won't do well for people. Be it stuff like you mentioned, to horny toads (ant eaters) to even eastern hogs that will only eat frogs. Just won't buy them, won't carry them, won't have anything to do with those animals. BUT, if a wholesaler (and stress that, wholesaler, not private individual) has them on a list it doesn't mean that I won't buy anything else from them. For example, say that Cal Zoo has always had great healthy animals, and we buy from them. Then I see a list come across that has eastern hognose. Doesn't mean that I won't buy from them anymore, just means that I won't buy the easterns. (Who knows, maybe they're on mice and they are 3rd gen c.b., I just don't buy) So I go much more off of overall then off of one or two things, I guess would be my answer.

To me you are both talking about different things, wholesaler to a retail business is one thing but when you branch out into the public you are no longer a wholesaler....

With any animal I shop the animal first and the seller second, both have to be right for me to commit...if I don't like the seller, something seems off or whatever I walk no matter how much I want the animal, just my way of doing things and might have bit me and might not have but I feel better about it all.

I'm not against WC animals at all as long as you have the knowledge and ability to let them thrive....

I moved this to the Market and Business discussion section also...seemed like a good discussion for here :cheers:

I guess I am of the opinion that you are what you sell. If you sell animals that you know will not thrive in captivity then you do not care about the animals themselves and you don't get my dollar for any animal at that point.

Jason

There is always a chance that someone could figure the snakes out and get them to thrive and reproduce, but I agree that they are too commonly available.

I have a background in keeping saltwater aquariums and worked for a friends store, neither of us would order or sell specimens that had poor survival in captivity or simply to beginners, but they sure were offered wholesale week after week. Problem is, even if we didn't buy them, somebody was. Some people like trying to keep challenging species even if it means that there is a chance that they might die.

I guess I am of the opinion that you are what you sell. If you sell animals that you know will not thrive in captivity then you do not care about the animals themselves and you don't get my dollar for any animal at that point.

Jason

On a person to person level sale I agree but I also see Sara's point when doing retail, the wholesaler to to a retailer sale won't know what you are capable of feeding...you might have an established colony of frogs for instance to feed your eastern hogs...reptile people at the very least are a strange bunch...I know pound for pound we put more work and time into the feeders then the reptiles so it isn't that far fetched to me that someone is capable of providing a less than ordinary food source for an animal...

Now to dump them out into an unprepared world of keepers then that is just irresponsible to me but I don't want to come across as there is no responsibility on the buyer to know what they are getting either...you know the requirements of the other animals and the ads don't get into much detail so it would depend on the communication of the seller to me...if they are just the give me your money sort then no I wouldn't do business but if they took the time and effort to educate the buyer then I would have a decision to make :cheers:

Now to dump them out into an unprepared world of keepers then that is just irresponsible to me but I don't want to come across as there is no responsibility on the buyer to know what they are getting either...you know the requirements of the other animals and the ads don't get into much detail so it would depend on the communication of the seller to me...if they are just the give me your money sort then no I wouldn't do business but if they took the time and effort to educate the buyer then I would have a decision to make :cheers:

I really liked all this, and bolded the lines that I loved.
Quiq has a toad eater, he does great with it. We don't sell easterns, as the majority of people that we would have the opportunity to sell them to would NOT do great with it and it would be quickly a deceased animal. So there are things that the majority of people would not do well with, but some people have it down pat, should they not be allowed the option cuz they are the few? Horned toads may do great in Oklahoma, Texas, etc in a back yard enclosure, in MN they wouldn't live but a month or two. People sell them all the time, should it be a case that they shouldn't be allowed to sell them or should they ask where you live or if you have access to the food that allows them to thrive? Or should the people know something about them before buying them? There is a two way street. People should have basic knowledge of care and requirements before purchasing an animal. Then the person selling it should expand on it. Just my opinion. Problem goes both ways, #1 the HUGE amount of people that just want a snake. They know NOTHING about any of them (Oh my god, they have to eat MICE?!?!?:eek:) and #2 the amount of people that just want to sell them that snake so they can make the money. (Oh noooo, mice are just an option, you can feed it cut up hot dogs and it'll be just fine.:rolleyes:)

I really liked all this, and bolded the lines that I loved.
Quiq has a toad eater, he does great with it. We don't sell easterns, as the majority of people that we would have the opportunity to sell them to would NOT do great with it and it would be quickly a deceased animal. So there are things that the majority of people would not do well with, but some people have it down pat, should they not be allowed the option cuz they are the few? Horned toads may do great in Oklahoma, Texas, etc in a back yard enclosure, in MN they wouldn't live but a month or two. People sell them all the time, should it be a case that they shouldn't be allowed to sell them or should they ask where you live or if you have access to the food that allows them to thrive? Or should the people know something about them before buying them? There is a two way street. People should have basic knowledge of care and requirements before purchasing an animal. Then the person selling it should expand on it. Just my opinion. Problem goes both ways, #1 the HUGE amount of people that just want a snake. They know NOTHING about any of them (Oh my god, they have to eat MICE?!?!?:eek:) and #2 the amount of people that just want to sell them that snake so they can make the money. (Oh noooo, mice are just an option, you can feed it cut up hot dogs and it'll be just fine.:rolleyes:)
Great discussion guys/gal! :D

Sara, this is exactly why I like doing business and being friends with you and Bruce. You have integrity and the knowledge to make good choices for both the animals the sometimes idiots who want to to buy them. Kudos to you guys! :cheers::cheers::cheers:

Great discussion guys/gal! :D

Sara, this is exactly why I like doing business and being friends with you and Bruce. You have integrity and the knowledge to make good choices for both the animals the sometimes idiots who want to to buy them. Kudos to you guys! :cheers::cheers::cheers:

Aw, thanks!:o:cheers:

I agree with the OP. There's a lot of species DTS sells that IMHO, are not suitable for the masses.

Wildcaught imports are one thing; some of the species I work with have limited CBB stock and I occasionally have to get imported stuff. But some things like the snakes mentioned in the OP are just walking (or slithering) corpses that don't know they're dead yet. And DTS doesn't give a flip.

I agree with the OP. There's a lot of species DTS sells that IMHO, are not suitable for the masses.

Wildcaught imports are one thing; some of the species I work with have limited CBB stock and I occasionally have to get imported stuff. But some things like the snakes mentioned in the OP are just walking (or slithering) corpses that don't know they're dead yet. And DTS doesn't give a flip.

In fairness to the topic I should have left DTS out of it because that is a whole ball of fun in itself. I just personally get fed up with seeing imports in the middle of a bad shed for sale at shows or animals with fresh wounds for sale... WTF?? If you can't bring in a healthy animal, don't come to the show. I think a lot falls back on the show organizers. There is a little show in Florida that was (maybe still is) run by a crazy little lady named Lauren. If you vended at her show you had to be prepared to deal with her coming back on you for customer complaints or her walking right up in her loud ass voice and telling you to get a sickly animal off your table. The show was small but you didn't see sickly animals on the table. i wish more show organizers were like that.

To me personally, dealing in imports means you take a hit for animals dieing. When I did "job" in Florida I almost never brought the imports I sold to pet stores to shows to try to sell as mine and when i did it was only after I sat on the animals and got it going strong. I NEVER tried to sell an animal before it died. Dealing in imports means dealing with animals that received terrible care and now need to be rehabbed before a novice can try to keep them. Some animals will die, that is just the way it goes but that dead animal should be in your hands not pushed out to someone else as soon as possible. It seems so many people are all about the money first and the animal second and to me that is wrong. I try to identify those people and actively not deal with them.

By actively, I mean I will not hesitate to offer my opinion of crappy dealers and I will advise against buying from such people. I don't think I am rude about it but I am not shy either. That is the only way we can police ourselves. Money talks and I guess I just wish people would think about that before buying. Someone said that the animal is first and the seller is second and I respectively disagree. That is the same to me as the people who "rescue" animals from pet stores. Giving these people any business supports all their activities, good or bad.

Thanks for the discussion, it is these kind of things that get me fired up and then I get off my butt and go clean cages. :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Jason

In fairness to the topic I should have left DTS out of it because that is a whole ball of fun in itself. I just personally get fed up with seeing imports in the middle of a bad shed for sale at shows or animals with fresh wounds for sale... WTF?? If you can't bring in a healthy animal, don't come to the show. I think a lot falls back on the show organizers. There is a little show in Florida that was (maybe still is) run by a crazy little lady named Lauren. If you vended at her show you had to be prepared to deal with her coming back on you for customer complaints or her walking right up in her loud ass voice and telling you to get a sickly animal off your table. The show was small but you didn't see sickly animals on the table. i wish more show organizers were like that.

To me personally, dealing in imports means you take a hit for animals dieing. When I did "job" in Florida I almost never brought the imports I sold to pet stores to shows to try to sell as mine and when i did it was only after I sat on the animals and got it going strong. I NEVER tried to sell an animal before it died. Dealing in imports means dealing with animals that received terrible care and now need to be rehabbed before a novice can try to keep them. Some animals will die, that is just the way it goes but that dead animal should be in your hands not pushed out to someone else as soon as possible. It seems so many people are all about the money first and the animal second and to me that is wrong. I try to identify those people and actively not deal with them.

By actively, I mean I will not hesitate to offer my opinion of crappy dealers and I will advise against buying from such people. I don't think I am rude about it but I am not shy either. That is the only way we can police ourselves. Money talks and I guess I just wish people would think about that before buying. Someone said that the animal is first and the seller is second and I respectively disagree. That is the same to me as the people who "rescue" animals from pet stores. Giving these people any business supports all their activities, good or bad.

Thanks for the discussion, it is these kind of things that get me fired up and then I get off my butt and go clean cages. :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Jason

Amen brother! Preach on! I knew there was a reason you fit in so well around here..... true bush league! :cheers:

Good topic.Have to respond when i get home from work!!!
Great topic though!:rockon:

I do agree with what is being stated here, and that both CBB and WC/Imported, Farmed "healthy" animals should only be made available for sale whether locally at shows or via the internet. Of course all of us know this isn't the case. There will always be WC/Imports or Farmed animals made available that aren't in the healthiest of conditions. I have been to shows were people picked up shipments on the way to shows or just prior to the show, and know some of these animals were in bad condition. And this being the case could lie other questions in itself. After shows whether vending, visiting or let's say taking a herp to a vet, what steps do you take to ensure nothing enters your collection? Do you know 100% that all the vendors have perfectly clean animals? Do you know if the vet just recently treated an animal for mites and possibly transferred one or two on to your animal? Sorry just my own can of worms I guess I'm trying to open.

Ok back on topic. After some recent BOI's and such, people need to back their "healthy" animals they sell. If they're advertising or selling "healthy" animals, then they should be offering more than live arrival guarantee. If they are only offering live arrival(if shipping is involved), then this is where as a buyer you need to be asking the seller a lot of questions. I realize our hobby, is not like a depeartment store where things are easily returnable. However as a buyer, if a person is guaranteeing us the health and physical condition of an animal and for us this is gotten in writing via e-mails, no over the phone he said she said crap(learned the hard way years ago), then we expect to receive the animal in this condition. If we have been lied to, then there will be further action taken to be reimbursed and to make sure this doesn't happen to someone else. If buying from a local show it's up to you as a buyer to make your best judgement. Is the seller reputable? Do they stand behind their "healthy" animals? Can you contact them if a problem arises? Etc., Etc.!

The wife and I do all our own fecal cultures on any newly acquired animal or one before it is put up for sale. However this isn't the case for everyone. To us this is beneficial and should be accepted as part of the guarantee of the health of the animal being sold. Why do I say this? Most people try to avoid feedings prior to shipping or selling of an animal. This just makes for a cleaner shipping/transporting issue. So until the new owner feeds and the next fecal sample can be taken, usually 5-10 days have passed(depending on species), a guarantee should be given long enough for the first fecal sample to be collected and tested. After that then the guarantee is up to the individual seller. I feel after about a week/week and half then the new owners husbandry conditions or care can be a factor. So I'll be honest and say (for us) don't come screaming for a refund a month later without the appropriate paperwork. We'll be glad to help out to get this resolved, or find out the cause and do what's appropriate depending on what's determined by an approved Herp Vet(not just a small animal vet). Maybe some won't see it our way, however this is just our 2 cents on the guarantee and will vary per seller.

Now I have to say we are one's who are not against Imports/WC's. If it wasn't for Imports/WC's we wouldn't have the Burms, Boas, the Green Tree's, the Cobra's, the Vipers, etc. we have in our collections. We have Imported/WC animals in our collection and still to this day by them. We have some that that's the only way we were going to get them. However again going back to being a buyer, you have to ask questions and possibly prepare yourself for the needs or care these animals may require. Are you prepared properly with quarantining these animals? Can you provide the medical needs neccessary if need be? Can you supply the special diets if need be? We have animals from Dan Scolaro(DTS - since his name was brought up), and other importers and have no complaints. But we ask questions. We have certain species of snakes that only will eat frogs and house geckos, so we have someone who supplies us with bulk quantities of these. This was our choice as a buyer and were prepaired for this. But again, we ask questions and make sure we get answers. If we get the run around then we simply don't buy them. With Imported/ WC's we look at it like buying a car "AS-IS". Are you prepaired for any repairs the car may need if something is wrong with or something happens to it after purchase? You are the buyer, they are the seller. You don't have to buy, what a seller is trying to sell. If your a compulsive buyer, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Ask questions people. Ask about the health or physical condition of the animals. Ask how long they've had them. Ask if they're aggressive feeders. Ask what they're eating and the feeding schedule. Ask about records as some people like to keep track of these things. Ask about the guarantee they offer. Most of the Imported/WC or Famred animals will be live arrival only. It is up to you to get as much info as possible whether CBB or Imported/WC or Farmed and decide if this is right for you.


Cliff notes:

Seller's - Back your "healthy" animals your selling.
Buyer's - Ask questions, prepare yourself before compulsively buying.

Finally a thread where people type more than me :lol:

Good points and discussion really, most of us seem on the same page minus little things here or there....honestly I would love to get someone with the other point of view that could talk out their case for what they do and not just the buying part but the ones that sell this stuff...just some insight even if I don't agree with it just talk it out rationally...

All our snakes originated from wild caught animals...I'd like to see these animals figured out and conserved from their likely extinction in the future due to man's interference in the environment.....glad I'm not a sea turtle or pelican at the moment...the only way this will happen is to get people educated and interested in keeping these species till they get to the point of what we see and know of common place animals....

Jason H, it chaps my ass too..Theres more to it then the species mentioned as well..If one choses to be a nature RAPIST, they can collect their local fauna and sell it cheap to several of the florida wholesalers..Box terrepins,garter snakes,eastern hogs the list goes on and all for a couple three bucks..I started something of the same nature on r geeks last year and have always been bothered by such..We're with ya bro..:master:

Jason H, it chaps my ass too..Theres more to it then the species mentioned as well..If one choses to be a nature RAPIST, they can collect their local fauna and sell it cheap to several of the florida wholesalers..Box terrepins,garter snakes,eastern hogs the list goes on and all for a couple three bucks..I started something of the same nature on r geeks last year and have always been bothered by such..We're with ya bro..:master:

I know there are many people out there like you and I but the questions is do we just walk around with a can of Goldbond for our asses or do we do something useful about it? (I suggested to R geeks to change the name of their field forum from "collecting" to "observing or herping" which he did)

Jason