Where do you see the spider ball python prices going this season? Why doesn't some one make a site where there are set prices for morphs? I mean seriously people are always in such a rush to sell there animals, I would rather just hold on to what I produce and get what they are really worth. I understand the prices are going to drop but I think they are dropping to much each year.

Where do you see the spider ball python prices going this season? Why doesn't some one make a site where there are set prices for morphs? I mean seriously people are always in such a rush to sell there animals, I would rather just hold on to what I produce and get what they are really worth. I understand the prices are going to drop but I think they are dropping to much each year.

Well, yeah it would be nice to be able to say for sure what the price should be on a specific animal but it is a market and supply and demand play a big part. Right now there's more and more small hobbyists out there breeding and selling and with spiders being a dominant morph, a morph that's been around for a while and one of the (IMO) must haves combo-wise, there's no short supply.

I'm guessing here but I think you'll see male Spiders for $150 and females around $250...Just guessing...

Where do you see the spider ball python prices going this season? Why doesn't some one make a site where there are set prices for morphs? I mean seriously people are always in such a rush to sell there animals, I would rather just hold on to what I produce and get what they are really worth. I understand the prices are going to drop but I think they are dropping to much each year.

Pretty much around what BT said....

Can't really have a site or any other method where there are set prices, because that is price fixing.... in any case, it would get ignored even if there was such a site.

i think giving them a year or so longer and you will be able to get hatchling spiders for about the same as alot of pastels hatchlings are going for now. around 100.00 for male and 125.00 to 150.00 for females shipped. i could be wrong but with the amount of breeders and small breeders out there and the more coming in i see them falling to around them prices shipped just like the pastels.

If you ask me they are way under priced already. Spider females are worth their weight in gold, $300-$350 is more than a fair price for them. If we keep following the trend of dropping prices every year by half soon they will all be $50 animals. I think they have reached a price that is cheap enough already. At some point it needs to level off and stop dropping....

i would agree although i dont think its going to level off any time soon. i wish the carper python morphs would start falling in prices myself so i could pick up a few i cant afford now lol. i would like to see the market stabelize thought for bp's and all other reptiles but on the other hand id like to see it make a few of the bad dealers/breeders fold and get out of the business.

Brian from BHB said it really well when he said something to the affect of why do people just assume that they have to drop there prices every year. Which I think is a really good point. Just cause you sell something for $350 one year doesnt mean you should drop it the next year. If the majority of people thought that way prices wouldnt drop quite as fast. Its always going to happen though.

Brian from BHB said it really well when he said something to the affect of why do people just assume that they have to drop there prices every year. Which I think is a really good point. Just cause you sell something for $350 one year doesnt mean you should drop it the next year. If the majority of people thought that way prices wouldnt drop quite as fast. Its always going to happen though.

you're right but you also have to think, not everyone has the money or the means or housing to sit on racks of hatchlings and so forth that brian has either lol.

I agree that most of the people that you see posting animals really cheap are people that are bitter and probably getting out of the business. It doesn't mean that we all have to follow. Let them sell the few animals that they have and let them leave. Personally, I won't sell them cheap. If they don't sell I'll raise them up and sell them next year as breeders.

I can understand maybe being strapped for cash from time to time trust me. However I think if you breed you should have the means to house and feed ALL of the babies until you sell them or trade or whatever you do with them. Just my .02 cents.

Kevin from NERD said it best at one of his talks at the Tinley show."Why should we be at rush to make it to the bottom first." Things need to level off in this hobby and quit being so cut throat and let everyone enjoy this addiction that we all love.

Kevin from NERD said it best at one of his talks at the Tinley show."Why should we be at rush to make it to the bottom first." Things need to level off in this hobby and quit being so cut throat and let everyone enjoy this addiction that we all love.

Thats good. I like it, and I agree.

Kevin from NERD said it best at one of his talks at the Tinley show."Why should we be at rush to make it to the bottom first." Things need to level off in this hobby and quit being so cut throat and let everyone enjoy this addiction that we all love.

The thing about Kevin is this...he gets a new morph and holds it back. He breeds it back, determines its genetics and even begins making combo morphs. THEN he allows the new morph to reach the public.

Why does he do this? So he can control the market. It ensures that he is always a step ahead of everyone else. He can personally control the market price for all new morphs since he's always going to have the greater number of animals. You can't say that he's not cutt-throat. He keeps his projects pretty secretive, only allowing the occasional picture to reach the public to keep the hype going. I'm not faulting him in any way for this. In fact, it's exactly what I would do if I were in his position. But for him to say that other people are making the hobby the cut-throat, money-making hobby it is, is pretty ridiculous.

The drop in price is simply a function of supply and demand. Supply is increasing exponentially every season, while demand is not.

The economy tanking isn't helping either. Most people can't afford to pay rent, let alone for luxury pets such as balls.

Current economy aside, these are my random thoughts on this topic.
I don't think anyone is in any "rush" for the market to go to the bottom on any given animal type, except those tire kickers/penny pinchers that dream of a morph out of their budget. These, however are the same people that once the price on "x" morph does drop, will have no interest in it, instead being obsessed on some new morph that is still out of their range. These are the "lot lizards" of the industry, if you will, always looking and talking, yet never buying. These same people tend to be the ones that lowball sellers with offers and talk endlessly about the "market" on forums, etc.

About Kevin (the quoted comment), he appears to me, to be a good business person. With out a doubt. One does not build any business to that size by being a schlep.
Very few, and I do mean VERY few, of the people I have met in my time in this business that are in it at a true business level, and are and have been successful are not "cut throat." If you are in any business and not "cut throat" to a good degree, you will not be in business for long. Period. Now, that said, being "cut throat" and being "fair" are not mutually exclusive. I suppose there's a degree of interpretation on one's behalf of the term, but in my eyes, it is not all bad. If you were termed as "unfair" or "shady" it would be a different story.
The reptile market has changed dramatically in the last 5 years for some very simple reasons. People that were in it at a business level were able to profit in a very big way. The reprocussions are simple. The "pros" produced and sold, for the most part, as fast as they could while the prices were high. People that bought in with the "big eyes" raced to get the return on the investments while watching the market slowly slide as the "pros" had less available market to sell to. As these "buy ins" produced their animals, they found that people would buy from the "pros" and pay more for the name.
Result: They had to entice with lower prices until they achieved some sort of recognition or a "name" to sell at the level of the "pros".
This was and still is the cycle at any level.
Joe blow cannot hold out for "the price" no matter what any name in the business says. Joe blow has no choice but to sell lower. The problem arises where Joe Blow asks $200 and Bob Blow sees that and asks $180. So on and so forth. No one can stop it. It's called free market.

Yes, the "pros" sometimes complain about low pricing. This site states "no market crashers". No difference.
It's was previously discussed on other forums that a certain site instills the deleting of posts and kicking of users that "hurt" the market.

I will sell my animals for whatever I want. Period. They are mine.

No, you shouldn't be breeding animals if you cannot house the hatchlings. That's stupid.

I am of the opinion that pricing of ALL balls will continue to drop like stones while supply of "x" morph catches up with demand for one reason in 2 parts. There is NOT an unlimited market for them and a monkey with a light bulb and a bucket can breed them.

Or, I my be completely wrong. It's happened before.

I think what we will see in the next few years is:
1. Large price drops for single morph males
&
2. A settling of price in females.

When Keven, Ralph, Brian and the like are breeding 5-plus morph males to a collections of multiple morph females its a battle the little guy will never win if you look at it from that mindset. And for the little guys, morphs are now more affordable, but as the amount of available animals continues to expand exponentially single morph males will become less enticing as more and more multiple morph males are available. Especially considering 1 male can pass his genes on to x females making him much more valuable than the female who can only pass her genes on to her clutch. If you can follow this anyway...

I agree with BT. The females may bring a little less, but if I don't get about that I'm keeping mine. You can never have to many female morphs. Just my opinion.

Thanks,
Travis Whisler

Yes, the "pros" sometimes complain about low pricing. This site states "no market crashers". No difference.

Sure there's a difference...When the "market price" for Albinos is $550 and you have an individual come out with a public ad for $300 Albinos - That's market crashing - Plain and simply...What Morph King did with the Mojave is market crashing...Or an I missing something here?

Sure there's a difference...When the "market price" for Albinos is $550 and you have an individual come out with a public ad for $300 Albinos - That's market crashing - Plain and simply...What Morph King did with the Mojave is market crashing...Or an I missing something here?

At least MKR crashed along with their crashing....

When Keven, Ralph, Brian and the like are breeding 5-plus morph males to a collections of multiple morph females its a battle the little guy will never win if you look at it from that mindset. And for the little guys, morphs are now more affordable, but as the amount of available animals continues to expand exponentially single morph males will become less enticing as more and more multiple morph males are available. Especially considering 1 male can pass his genes on to x females making him much more valuable than the female who can only pass her genes on to her clutch. If you can follow this anyway...

Here's the thing though... I've got the mindset that as time goes on, the quality of the morph is going to become more important to people. Sure, right now you've got people going with the cheapest snakes possible and then breeding them and thinking they'll get rich off it. Then they realize the snakes they're producing look like krap and noone wants to pay the asking price so they drop it down. If you ask me, the market is already WELL over-saturated with poor examples of just about every morph. How hard is it to find a nice, clean, bright pastel for sale? How hard is it to actually PRODUCE a nice, clean, bright pastel? Now throw another 4 morphs in with that pastel. Personally, I think the more morphs you add together, the harder it's going to be to control the quality of each individual morph. Sure, you'll be able to mass produce five different morphs with one male. But are they going to look any good?

i think giving them a year or so longer and you will be able to get hatchling spiders for about the same as alot of pastels hatchlings are going for now. around 100.00 for male and 125.00 to 150.00 for females shipped. i could be wrong but with the amount of breeders and small breeders out there and the more coming in i see them falling to around them prices shipped just like the pastels.


You won't see my pastels priced that low. :cool:

I'll keep them all before I'll sell that low.

Male:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/rabernet/Winston%20x%20Pandora/DSC01622.jpg - Photo taken by Matt Cook at the Birmingham show (gotta give proper credit! LOL) - He's going in trade to a friend of mine.

Female:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/rabernet/Libra/IMG_4757.jpg

This is probably the most "true" to her current coloration.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e90/rabernet/Libra/IMG_4748.jpg

Here's the thing though... I've got the mindset that as time goes on, the quality of the morph is going to become more important to people. Sure, right now you've got people going with the cheapest snakes possible and then breeding them and thinking they'll get rich off it. Then they realize the snakes they're producing look like krap and noone wants to pay the asking price so they drop it down. If you ask me, the market is already WELL over-saturated with poor examples of just about every morph. How hard is it to find a nice, clean, bright pastel for sale? How hard is it to actually PRODUCE a nice, clean, bright pastel? Now throw another 4 morphs in with that pastel. Personally, I think the more morphs you add together, the harder it's going to be to control the quality of each individual morph. Sure, you'll be able to mass produce five different morphs with one male. But are they going to look any good?


This is a statement i agree wholeheartedly with!!! Heck, it already applies to other species as well now too! Quality control has gone down the tubes.

You won't see my pastels priced that low. :cool:

I'll keep them all before I'll sell that low.


Robin.... Your animals rock. DONT drop your prices. Id pay, GLADLY 300 for that female, without question. * possibly more if you wanted more *

Why would i pay 150 for a crap brown pastel... when people out there have superb looking animals like this?!

Youre making me drool!

Robin.... Your animals rock. DONT drop your prices. Id pay, GLADLY 300 for that female, without question. * possibly more if you wanted more *

Why would i pay 150 for a crap brown pastel... when people out there have superb looking animals like this?!

Youre making me drool!

Thanks Alicia - I'm really hopeful that selective breeding will soon drive the ball python market!

Sure there's a difference...When the "market price" for Albinos is $550 and you have an individual come out with a public ad for $300 Albinos - That's market crashing - Plain and simply...What Morph King did with the Mojave is market crashing...Or an I missing something here?
Because what you are saying is that you and or others solely have the right to determine "market value" and I don't.
In my opinion, you just look at it differently. Everyone collectively determines the market value. If I have one or 1000 albinos to sell, they will only sell for what someone will pay.
If I put $450 in my ad, am I still a "crasher"? What's the line? More importantly, who get's to draw it?
If I do put up the $300 ad and someone buys it, the ad is then gone. If you keep your ads at $550, IF there is demand, the animals will still sell and people will be sorry they missed that "great deal" for $300.

A single animal seller doen't have the power to adjust the market unless others follow suit.

The "problem" is that these single animal sellers are large in numbers and will follow each other in pricing somewhat readily, making a co-op of sorts, with a sometimes good amount of effect on the market. This seems to come into play at a certain level of animal value, say around the $1000 and under for the most part to my opinion.

Sellers DO NOT SET THE MARKET ALONE. Buyers do also.
Large scale sellers can manipulate the market to some extent, but they are not crashing it, they and the market are naturally adjusting with the laws of supply and demand. Small time sellers do not really effect anything unless larger sellers follow their actions. If they do, then they are creating their own path of their own accord.

If I do have a few hundred albinos or say, mojaves. or any number of animals beyond what I am keeping back for future breeding or expansion, how do I sell them? By posting an ad with the same price as everyone else? Hell no; not if animals are slow to sell at that price. I'm not waiting for "premium" buyers. I've got the volume to make it up in the long run. I'm going to drop the price to get attention and gain market share. If people buy, I am then gaining market at that price. Others will have to follow suit or they can hold and wait for my inventory to run out and see if demand adjusts the price back up.
However... It never does!
Here's the thing about snakes: SUPPLY CURRENTLY INCREASES EVERY YEAR IN A DISPROPORTIONATE RATE TO DEMAND.
The cheaper they get, the more get produced.
Thus, prices will continue to drop quickly.
The ONLY way to level out the market would be to adapt a dog breeder's sort of practice in that animals are sold in "pet" and "show" quality. "Pet" animals are sterilized under contract. Not practical for snakes on many levels, mostly because probably 99% of morph buyers intend on breeding.
And there's your supply and demand issue.
There is no way for the market to upswing at this time because of the ever increasing supply.
Simply, I believe that snake prices coming down 2 or 3 times a year is realistic at this point because of the fore-mentioned reasons of supply exhausting demand.
On a side note, I think the whole market price is whacked in one way with snakes.
Albinos - $550. So many people think their crap should sell for +/- $25 of that number (whatever it is). I cry B.S. I think there's a lot of factors that can take away from the price on animals. Appearance, having records or not, weight, diet, lack of reputation, etc... The "market" price as advertised is the "premium" price in my opinion.

On a related note, I was told there was some crazy cheap pricing at Daytona this year and it didn't seem to bring prices down after the show like people thought it was going to; and "ruin" the market.

I wanted to share a quote from a related discussion on another forum.

Either:
a) You are a hobbyist. In this case, any offspring you produce are 'gravy' and if you can get fifty bucks a piece for them, then WOOHOO! You made some beer money. Keep whatcha like, sell whatcha don't, love, live, laugh.....
or
b) You are in the business of selling snakes. In this case, shut your mouth, COMPETE in the market place, and next time try to make better decisions.

One other thing...and I may be guilty of this as well....I think sometimes breeders have delusions of grandeur about what their offspring are worth. These are snakes people...most 'normal' people would rather pay you $500 to come kill the snake living in their yard, than to sell them one as a pet.

I wanted to share a quote from a related discussion on another forum.

Ha , i like it :)

To say one other thing, I think my problem with the term "market crashers" is that very few people actually would have the ability to do that.
Of those few people, none are purposely trying to crash the market, they are simply making a decision to sell off surplus inventory at prices that are sure to attract the attention and make the sales. In turn making money, which was the object to begin with.

Good points Damon.

At least MKR crashed along with their crashing....

MKR is still around, only the guy's in business with Clark's geckos.

Damon, I love your input. You've taken the less than popular viewpoint on this whole issue, which I completely agree with.

The people that usually complain about a drop in prices, and I am generalizing here, are people that overpaid when prices were unreasonably high. These old prices that some people were willing to pay did not accurately reflect the value of the snakes. Instead they reflected the hype or short-term value of having something new, and unrealistic potential for a big payback. The fact that supply is currently much higher than demand is something that can't be overlooked. BP breeders are selling to people who in a couple years will be their direct competitors. It's a very interesting and complex industry in which only a few will see any significant profits. For the rest of us, unless there is a significant increase in popularity and demand for pet quality animals (no intentions of breeding), it's going to maintain a sort of equilibrium in which everyone is essentially trading with everyone else.

Simply put, I think too many people are getting into the hobby with intentions to breed, which is causing a surplus of a "product" (which is really what it is) that doesn't have the demand to equal the output. Basic economics, nothing more.

Pastel males are already being sold for less than $100 -- think I've seen them around $75 a few places -- spiders will be there in no time. Biggest mistake was whatever idiot told people you could take a male and breed it to 10 females in it's first season and make tons of money. Whereas it looked like a good investment when this was a fledgling pyramid scheme - it's come back to bite the industry as a whole in the butt. You reap what you sew.

I like that quote, Damon. I'm more with you on the pricing what you think you can sell it for. And, of course, I always give good friends special deals - that would include my animals and my crafts...

Damon, I have to say I disagree, Your market analysis is based on a standard type of business market where the laws of supply and demand rein supreme.

I got news for you bud you can toss supply and demand out the window. The reptile market particularly the ball python market is a very unique market in and of itself.

Breeders worldwide are setting prices based on one factor which isn't supply and demand it's none other than KS classifieds. With that being said, just about everybody, big or small plays a very important role in current market value.

That's why sir, we take a very firm stance when it comes to topics such as "market crashing".

I hate to say but we've had one of the largest reptile breeders in the world publicly state on our program that he checks KS classifieds to determine his prices.

Your analysis is great for a standard business market but as stated this just isn't.

I also have to say I'm pretty offended, that you would reference our site in the manner in which you did.

We don't delete posts or threads here. If someone comes to our home and places ads intentionally undercutting the market to the degree it will effect us all, it will not be deleted.

We'll speak our dissaproval loud and clear so maybe next time they 'll think twice before dumping there animals.

:yessir:

Nice post Larry and I agree with you! A couple things is see in your post Damon that I dont agree with. I would rather be known as the breeder that has great animals than the guy over there that I can get a good deal at regardless of what the animals look like! Making a name for yourself and integrity go a long way in my eyes and dropping prices like most do on ks in my eyes is disgusting and makes them all look desperate! You will never see me on there competing against that! One thing that most people dont realize with the differences between big breeders and small breeders and their prices is this.....1. Big breeders have a big overhead with employees and TAXES! Most if any real small breeders even think about taxes because who would ever find out? That has to be rolled into the animal! You sell a albino for $500, minus a couple meals most of it is profit. Big guy might see half of that $500 as profit if he is lucky! 2. Joe Blow at the show bred his het albinos together and got a pair. He is selling the male for $450 while Mr Big Breeder has it for $500. You buy that $450 albino and get it home and two weeks later it is dead! You call the guy up and what is he going to do for you? He has no more and what do you think your chances of getting the money back is???? Yea, thought so! Now same scenario happens with big breeder, even if it is your fault most I know would more than likely replace that animal with another just to protect their name! That has to cost something, doesn't it? I am a small guy and have worked hard to build a reputation to be proud of in my eyes and it was not from selling cheap snakes but selling snakes that I am damn proud of for what they are worth! After all the time and energy I put into them has to be worth something.........

Sterilizing snakes...:cheers:

KS is the place I hate to say it...I have used it many times in the past to see what things are going for and set my price based on what I see there. Mainly because you get a wider selection of people. Right or wrong I see alot of us doing it that way. You can go from one site to another and find different prices and still never find the pulse of the industry that you can on KS.

These are animals so the market is always going to be a bit different beyond the simple supply and demand. These aren't even farm animals that you can take to the local auction when you have a surplus. This goes back to selective breeding and being able to handle what you produce if worst case is it doesn't sell. Would I sell off stuff I produced at half the price just to be rid of it? No I personally wouldn't but that is where the integrity comes into play.

Being more on the not making a living off of breeding snakes (I'm no longer calling it a hobby) side this would be the prime opportunity for me to trade, would I rather sell things and put money into my household, back into my collection in the form of equipment? Sure who wouldn't but I am also not the one having to pay a staff or rent on a building so I feel it gives me a little more room to move.

Sterilizing snakes...:cheers:

KS is the place I hate to say it...I have used it many times in the past to see what things are going for and set my price based on what I see there. Mainly because you get a wider selection of people. Right or wrong I see alot of us doing it that way. You can go from one site to another and find different prices and still never find the pulse of the industry that you can on KS.

These are animals so the market is always going to be a bit different beyond the simple supply and demand. These aren't even farm animals that you can take to the local auction when you have a surplus. This goes back to selective breeding and being able to handle what you produce if worst case is it doesn't sell. Would I sell off stuff I produced at half the price just to be rid of it? No I personally wouldn't but that is where the integrity comes into play.

Being more on the not making a living off of breeding snakes (I'm no longer calling it a hobby) side this would be the prime opportunity for me to trade, would I rather sell things and put money into my household, back into my collection in the form of equipment? Sure who wouldn't but I am also not the one having to pay a staff or rent on a building so I feel it gives me a little more room to move.


Very well spoken!

Sterilizing snakes...:cheers:

KS is the place I hate to say it...I have used it many times in the past to see what things are going for and set my price based on what I see there. Mainly because you get a wider selection of people. Right or wrong I see alot of us doing it that way. You can go from one site to another and find different prices and still never find the pulse of the industry that you can on KS.


Agreed, I've set my pricing on what I saw on KS also, but I have gone on the higher side of what I saw. Why, well, if I thought my animals were of equal or better looking examples and I thought I was being fair then I did so that way, but I'm not going to undercut like the rat race does daily.

Apart from KS classifieds.... Where else do you go to find out that is high profile enough to make the judgement that it's the pulse of the market?

You could hit the big breeder websites, but for a nobody, you'll find yourself battling against what you could call an untouchable reputation if you try to sell at the exact same price. Kind of a conflict there in itself, but how many people are going to buy from the small time nobody (Remembering the objective is to sell) if they can pay the same amount and get it from the big breeder?

I think a lot of people have bought from the big breeder just to say they got it from them as a marketing ploy.... which makes it incredibly difficult to even get a reputation started.

I think there is another problem we are faced with, and that is there just isn't the same amount of people now who have the cash to burn on another bp.

I think there are so many separate issues attached to this one large subject, that it's very difficult to touch on them and sum them all up in one post.

At the end of the day, I do what I think is right.... but that right may have it's own interpretations per individual.

I wanted to share a quote from a related discussion on another forum.

I would hope by making that quote your not telling me shut my mouth...

You could hit the big breeder websites, but for a nobody, you'll find yourself battling against what you could call an untouchable reputation if you try to sell at the exact same price. Kind of a conflict there in itself, but how many people are going to buy from the small time nobody (Remembering the objective is to sell) if they can pay the same amount and get it from the big breeder?


So, if Big Breeder A was selling an "average" pastel male for $85 and someone like myself was selling the quality of pastels that I posted on page 2 - and Buyer B was looking to add selectively to their stock - you don't believe that Buyer B wouldn't consider a purchase of my pastel male for $150 if I asked that price? For an animal that is higher quality than what Big Breeder A is offering?

I paid more than market value for my founding male pastel, because I wanted a stellar animal in my breeding program. Every time I pull out that female I produced (and am keeping), I'm awfully happy that I didn't compromise quality for price.

Just playing :devil:'s advocate here.

So, if Big Breeder A was selling an "average" pastel male for $85 and someone like myself was selling the quality of pastels that I posted on page 2 - and Buyer B was looking to add selectively to their stock - you don't believe that Buyer B wouldn't consider a purchase of my pastel male for $150 if I asked that price? For an animal that is higher quality than what Big Breeder A is offering?

I paid more than market value for my founding male pastel, because I wanted a stellar animal in my breeding program. Every time I pull out that female I produced (and am keeping), I'm awfully happy that I didn't compromise quality for price.

Just playing :devil:'s advocate here.

We will be coming back to the small breeder having better stock than the big breeder just because you have put time and effort into finding good breeding stock to just produce pastels where as the big breeder is now into multi gene stock to create a rainbow of morphs from the breeding...unless it is a morph to morph breeding chances are your stock is going to look better because you have been attempting to create just that awesome pastel.

Now I read Scott's reply as more the big breeder has prices higher than everyone on KS....so even if you are matching his price with your snake I believe you will get that price if the product is worthy of the price. You may not be able to provide the guarantee that the big breeder can but if you have a great product I think you can compete.

We will be coming back to the small breeder having better stock than the big breeder just because you have put time and effort into finding good breeding stock to just produce pastels where as the big breeder is now into multi gene stock to create a rainbow of morphs from the breeding...unless it is a morph to morph breeding chances are your stock is going to look better because you have been attempting to create just that awesome pastel.



My long term goals are not to produce "just that awesome pastel". I do intend to be creating multi-gene combos, but just as selectively breeding for nice pastels, I want to USE the nicest animals as my founding stock for combo's. That lone little female pastel I produced isn't being held back to make more pastels - she's being held back to be selectively bred into other projects, with the finest animals I can find/produce of the other morphs I may plug into her (and her future sisters I hope to hold back).

I often wonder when someone purchases a bee or a super pastel - how many buy just from the looks of that particular animal, or who ask to see pictures of the parents as well (especially when buying at shows)? A super pastel may look really nice, but what type of pastel offspring will it throw if you don't know what quality pastels made that super?

Granted, my goals are NOT to be a big breeder, but I do hope to be known as the small time breeder who selectively breeds and produces high quality animals. Albey is the type of breeder I strive to be. He built his reputation on the quality of his leo's and he's continued that reptuation of quality in his ball python breeding as well. He's not a large scale breeder, but what he produces is top notch!

Robin, if I was implying that is your only goal then I'm sorry.....really I meant it as you were just doing it one step at a time incorporating the morphs with killer stock....not getting a browned out pastel just to create the bee you want is more the angle I was going....you then get awesome pastels as a side effect waiting to add stuff in...

I have seen some morphs and often wondered the same thing coming from the corn snakes to these I look for certain things I want in the morph not just because it is a morph....

Robin, if I was implying that is your only goal then I'm sorry.....really I meant it as you were just doing it one step at a time incorporating the morphs with killer stock....not getting a browned out pastel just to create the bee you want is more the angle I was going....you then get awesome pastels as a side effect waiting to add stuff in...

I have seen some morphs and often wondered the same thing coming from the corn snakes to these I look for certain things I want in the morph not just because it is a morph....

No worries, Jeff! :cheers: I wasn't entirely clear on what you meant, so being the wordy broad that I am, I had to clarify! :cool:

So, if Big Breeder A was selling an "average" pastel male for $85 and someone like myself was selling the quality of pastels that I posted on page 2 - and Buyer B was looking to add selectively to their stock - you don't believe that Buyer B wouldn't consider a purchase of my pastel male for $150 if I asked that price? For an animal that is higher quality than what Big Breeder A is offering?

I paid more than market value for my founding male pastel, because I wanted a stellar animal in my breeding program. Every time I pull out that female I produced (and am keeping), I'm awfully happy that I didn't compromise quality for price.

Just playing :devil:'s advocate here.

You'd think the buyer would take yours, well, I would, but I can only speak for myself.... however, what I was getting at was.... if you both sold an average looking pastel for the same price.... then imo the some buyers will probably go with the big breeder.

To further elaborate, what I'm also suggesting is that some people like to purchase the breeders name/reputation (If it's a high profile) along with the snake if you get what I'm saying?

BT: The quote implys nothing to be directed toward any person specifically. Please don't take it that way.
It is simply representative of how I have come to feel about the "market" of snakes in general.

Larry: I appologize if you took my statement in an offensive way, and by no means did I mean to insinuate that this forum deleted posts. I should have worded that differently or not said it. Ah, hind sight...

Larry does bring up a quite interesting point that I honestly had not pondered. Surely KS is the 1 stop shop for classifieds, but does it really control the market as a be all end all pricing guide?
I'm not going to "toss supply and deamand out the window" just yet, but I can see the value in that view.
However, I do not think that KS as it's own entity is the "driving factor" of the prices. KS is not the magic scroll. If it was, why would anyone ever lower prices at all? Because of supply and demand in my opinion. At some point prices lower or product doesn't move. Prices lower because product isn't moving.

As I think about that, one other thing comes to mind as this being the "unique" market as Larry pointed out. That other factor is "willingness to sell" and I think it is pretty unique. Now, I'm strictly speaking for myself, but if I have produced an animal, it is "gravy" so to speak, as I am not relying on the income. While, I like most, bought animals with the vision of breeding and making some extra $ to most likely put into more expensive animals, I don't have to sell them. I didn't buy any as an investment, expecting any sort of guaranteed return. My point is that in this case, I often put a value on an animal that is only described as keeper. Meaning unless someone waves top "market" value in my face, I would rather keep it and grow it up. I think the above is what has leveled out the bee market (for one) in the past several months.
The above more of a babble than anything, but I ramble sometimes.

Whether or not KS is the price setter, I think the prices there move based on outside sources. Those sources are the breeders' stock and willingness to sell mixed with the availability of willing buyers.

Back to KS's market research death grip - The large breeders looking there for pricing, sure. (this is just tongue in cheek) They have to because most of them have price lists on their sites that are 2 -5 years old... (someone please laugh now)

Phil: I don't think getting a better deal has to mean an animal of less quality, although it surely can. Buyer beware.
A great point you bring up is overhead and it's play in pricing. To the little breeder, it mostly plays nothing. We keep and feed our stuff because we like to. At the point where it's "a business" you are making up for the overhead in volume. As for the "net" on the sale, I think in general, the little guys sell for less than the breeders and it sort of balances out.

MKR is still around, only the guy's in business with Clark's geckos.

Damon, I love your input. You've taken the less than popular viewpoint on this whole issue, which I completely agree with.

The people that usually complain about a drop in prices, and I am generalizing here, are people that overpaid when prices were unreasonably high. These old prices that some people were willing to pay did not accurately reflect the value of the snakes. Instead they reflected the hype or short-term value of having something new, and unrealistic potential for a big payback. The fact that supply is currently much higher than demand is something that can't be overlooked. BP breeders are selling to people who in a couple years will be their direct competitors. It's a very interesting and complex industry in which only a few will see any significant profits. For the rest of us, unless there is a significant increase in popularity and demand for pet quality animals (no intentions of breeding), it's going to maintain a sort of equilibrium in which everyone is essentially trading with everyone else.

I think Damon's imput sucks...A very few will see significant profits? What's significant? $10K, $20K, $50K...LOL...Sure everybodies not going to make a living breeding snake but to say you can't make some coin is far from the truth...I guess I'm one of those very few - I did pretty damn good last year and expect this year to be better...I'm a nobody in this industry and I can sell at market value or damn close to it...Nobodies bitching about prices coming down...What do you consider unreasonably high? I paid $1250 for a Pastel back in the day? Hell I ain't complain - He made me lot's of Bumble Bees, trades and cash...I paid damn good money for a Spider female back in the day - She's made me more cash, Bumbles Bees, Lesser Bee, Spider het Axanthics (this year), trades and cash - I ain't complaining that you can get them for $200 all day long...I paid $2500 for my Albino male - No complaints here - Same story - He's been a stud over the years...We're (me anyway) are bitching about market crashing...If you two can't understand what market crashing is - Oh well - It ain't no skin off my ass...I have no problems selling what I produce...I don't need to slash my prices in half...LOL...Not a very smart business plan if you ask me...What boggles my mind is this whole - I can't compete so I'll trash my prices to get my fair share of the market...LOL...That's lame and stupid...I can't tell how many sells I made because the "Big Boy's" won't return a phone call or email...Produce quality - Not mass produce - Provide a service that exceeds your customers expectations (Their your repeat customers)...Be creative and you can sell without selling out...Nobodies saying we don't like deals - Hell I love deals...

And Damon - Larry's a nice guy - I ain't...This site is built around Bush-League breeders for Bush-League breeders...We don't like flippers or market-crashers...You can sell your offspring for whatever you wish - Wholesale it out to flippers - I don't give a shit...Who draws the line you ask? On this site - I (Larry too) do...Maybe this site isn't for you...:yessir:

Apart from KS classifieds.... Where else do you go to find out that is high profile enough to make the judgement that it's the pulse of the market?


Since I dont sell on line yet it really does not affect me. When I go to a show I look around at what people are selling at and price at the high end and justify it with my animals. I have taken animals that I did not really want to see and throw a high price on them and I hate to say but a lot of them have sold.....Dammit! Sure I will work on the price some and package deals deserve some discount but I dont want vendors pissed at me because I want to be known as the "cheap" guy!

Since I dont sell on line yet it really does not affect me. When I go to a show I look around at what people are selling at and price at the high end and justify it with my animals. I have taken animals that I did not really want to see and throw a high price on them and I hate to say but a lot of them have sold.....Dammit! Sure I will work on the price some and package deals deserve some discount but I dont want vendors pissed at me because I want to be known as the "cheap" guy!

I only go to two shows, the Denver ones and the Tinley event.... kinda limits me to what I can get info wise on pricing. All other shows are quite a distance from where we are.... so it's not easy finding someone to watch the animals.

I do like going to the shows though.... although Denver shows haven't exactly been a good guide to finding out what your animals are worth, sometimes you just gotta look at em and put a price you'd be happy to get for what your selling based on the amount of work you have put into them.

I had that Mojave female I just posed pics of on my table in Denver a month ago for $600

I think she's worth every penny of it....

And Damon - Larry's a nice guy - I ain't...This site is built around Bush-League breeders for Bush-League breeders...We don't like flippers or market-crashers...You can sell your offspring for whatever you wish - Wholesale it out to flippers - I don't give a shit...Who draws the line you ask? On this site - I (Larry too) do...Maybe this site isn't for you...:yessir:
Understood. :yessir:

I think Damon's imput sucks...A very few will see significant profits? What's significant? $10K, $20K, $50K...LOL...Sure everybodies not going to make a living breeding snake but to say you can't make some coin is far from the truth...I guess I'm one of those very few - I did pretty damn good last year and expect this year to be better...I'm a nobody in this industry and I can sell at market value or damn close to it...Nobodies bitching about prices coming down...What do you consider unreasonably high? I paid $1250 for a Pastel back in the day? Hell I ain't complain - He made me lot's of Bumble Bees, trades and cash...I paid damn good money for a Spider female back in the day - She's made me more cash, Bumbles Bees, Lesser Bee, Spider het Axanthics (this year), trades and cash - I ain't complaining that you can get them for $200 all day long...I paid $2500 for my Albino male - No complaints here - Same story - He's been a stud over the years...We're (me anyway) are bitching about market crashing...If you two can't understand what market crashing is - Oh well - It ain't no skin off my ass...I have no problems selling what I produce...I don't need to slash my prices in half...LOL...Not a very smart business plan if you ask me...What boggles my mind is this whole - I can't compete so I'll trash my prices to get my fair share of the market...LOL...That's lame and stupid...I can't tell how many sells I made because the "Big Boy's" won't return a phone call or email...Produce quality - Not mass produce - Provide a service that exceeds your customers expectations (Their your repeat customers)...Be creative and you can sell without selling out...Nobodies saying we don't like deals - Hell I love deals...

And Damon - Larry's a nice guy - I ain't...This site is built around Bush-League breeders for Bush-League breeders...We don't like flippers or market-crashers...You can sell your offspring for whatever you wish - Wholesale it out to flippers - I don't give a shit...Who draws the line you ask? On this site - I (Larry too) do...Maybe this site isn't for you...:yessir:

Whoah...first of all, in no way was I trying to saying that market crashing was acceptable. I wasn't referencing it in my post. I don't agree with it, but I also don't think it happens often enough and in large enough numbers that it has a significant effect on the overall pricing of snakes. You really think that an impatient nobody with a few to a few dozen snakes offering them at half price is going to cause the whole market to crash? Of course not. In fact, it's the big breeders, the guys with a lot of stock that are going to actually set the price. If they're going to kingsnake and setting their prices according to what others are selling them at, then maybe they don't understand what kind of control over the market they actually do have.

As far as complaining about prices dropping, I was not referring to you or any posts directly from this site. Through my time on other forums I've seen the frustration mounting in individuals that are pissed off that they've bought the $1250 pastel and the price has dropped to barely above normals.

It sounds to me like you've had a sound business plan, and more importantly, a REALISTIC outlook on what the market will look like. You understand that a big investment now may not pay off until after a few breeding seasons. Which is important to keep in mind.

But to be honest with you, I very rarely see people offering snakes at hugely discounted prices because they just want to move stock. I don't think today's prices are a reflection of that. Yeah, some assholes selling albinos for $300, but he's always been an asshole and the smart people know that. I doubt his clearance sales are going to crash the albino price.

We've seen a significant drop in ball python prices over the last few months. Anyone else notice it? The economy has tanked, people are out of jobs, and breeders now need to drop their prices in order to sell them. The price drop isn't about undercutting the competitors, it's recognition of the fact that demand has decreased significantly and price levels have dropped to reflect a decrease in buyer's pockets.

My whole take on it is if you produce too many of a lower end morph(spider,pin, mojave,ect...) and can't sell them near market price, call some of the bigger breeders, most of them will gladly take your animals off of your hands at a cheaper price. Don't go and publicly post them at crazy low prices on a public forum. All that does is piss people off,and thats how threads like this get started.
Most of the big breeders aren't breeding the bread and butter animals in large enough numbers to supply their demand. They are more focused on bigger and better things. They are relying on the little guys to supply their demand.