you guys read this???, was on KS today

The Food and Drug Administration issued a statement that Mice Direct rats, mice and chicks sold as reptile food were being recalled by the company due to salmonella contamination. From the FDA:


The frozen reptile feed was distributed in all states, except Hawaii, through pet stores and by mail order and direct delivery.

Frozen reptile feed was shipped in plastic bags with the following product codes M-SP100, M-P100, M-PF100, M-F100, M-H100, M-W50, M-A50, M-JA25, R-P100, R-F50, R-PUP50, R-W50, R-S50, R-M20, R-L10,R-J5, R-C5, R-M3 followed by E9, F9, G9, H9, I9, J9, K9, L9 or A10, B10, C10, D10, E10, F10, G10 and whole frozen chicks in 25 count bags.

Human illnesses that may be related to the frozen reptile feed have been reported in 17 states. The recalled product should not be fed to animals, even after heating in a microwave oven, since the heating may not be adequate to kill Salmonella. The recall is based upon sampling by the FDA of frozen mice. The company continues their investigation.

Products shipped after 07/24/2010, will be irradiated in a similar manner as raw food for human consumption in order to address the Salmonella issue associated with these products.

Consumers who purchased reptile feed from Mice Direct are urged to contact Mice Direct by telephone at 888-747-0736 from 9:00a.m-5:00p.m EST Monday-Friday or by e-mail at sales@micedirect.com for instructions concerning this recall and for credits towards replacement of unused product.

http://www.pethobbyist.com/sitenews/archives/730-Recall-Mice-Direct-frozen-rats,-mice,-chicks.html

Anyone here get sick from their rodents?....would like to hear from someone that is in the 17 states effected..?

Yeah I just saw that myself. Makes me wonder, I don't buy from MiceDirect but I do have to wonder how often we come in contact with salmonella with all feeders?

Hmmm this makes me wanna go pick up some rats and just produce what i can for the hatchling spider im getting....

OK, this is ALL BS, and if the FDA gets thier way, all frozen feeders suppliers are going to be required to "rediate" all of their product before they sell it,. This means jacked up prices. We are distributors for mice direct. What has happened, is some schmo in England got sick and blamed it on the frozen feeders...they targeted Mice Direct. He wants the same standards that apply to dog food to apply to frozen snake food. And oh yeah, it might give your reptiles samanollia too.....ummm duh....they ALREADY carry it! It is all crap. The "17" cases, were not all Mice Direct products, but frozen feeders from different companies....article doesn't read that way does it. So what idiot handles frozen mice and then sticks his hands in his mouth without washing them. This is one BIG JOKE....I would bet that somewhere down the line you will find PETA or HSUS egging this thing on. BTW...you can get salmellia from LIVE mice and rats as well as the raw chicken you buy from the store. Don't see them radiating that!

FYI, Mice Direct is going to start radiating all of their product because the FDA told them to. Same with the recall. They do not think there is anything wrong with their product, the recall was because the FDA said to do it. It is one BIG JOKE with the media hyping it up and misleading with their articles. If the FDA decides they need to regulate frozen feeders, then get ready to empty out your pocket books because the cost is going to go UP!

Yeah I just saw that myself. Makes me wonder, I don't buy from MiceDirect but I do have to wonder how often we come in contact with salmonella with all feeders?
Everytime you handle them or your snakes.

OK, this is ALL BS, and if the FDA gets thier way, all frozen feeders suppliers are going to be required to "rediate" all of their product before they sell it,. This means jacked up prices. We are distributors for mice direct. What has happened, is some schmo in England got sick and blamed it on the frozen feeders...they targeted Mice Direct. He wants the same standards that apply to dog food to apply to frozen snake food. And oh yeah, it might give your reptiles samanollia too.....ummm duh....they ALREADY carry it! It is all crap. The "17" cases, were not all Mice Direct products, but frozen feeders from different companies....article doesn't read that way does it. So what idiot handles frozen mice and then sticks his hands in his mouth without washing them. This is one BIG JOKE....I would bet that somewhere down the line you will find PETA or HSUS egging this thing on. BTW...you can get salmellia from LIVE mice and rats as well as the raw chicken you buy from the store. Don't see them radiating that!

FYI, Mice Direct is going to start radiating all of their product because the FDA told them to. Same with the recall. They do not think there is anything wrong with their product, the recall was because the FDA said to do it. It is one BIG JOKE with the media hyping it up and misleading with their articles. If the FDA decides they need to regulate frozen feeders, then get ready to empty out your pocket books because the cost is going to go UP!

I agree...

ok, this is all bs, and if the fda gets thier way, all frozen feeders suppliers are going to be required to "rediate" all of their product before they sell it,. This means jacked up prices. We are distributors for mice direct. What has happened, is some schmo in england got sick and blamed it on the frozen feeders...they targeted mice direct. He wants the same standards that apply to dog food to apply to frozen snake food. And oh yeah, it might give your reptiles samanollia too.....ummm duh....they already carry it! It is all crap. The "17" cases, were not all mice direct products, but frozen feeders from different companies....article doesn't read that way does it. So what idiot handles frozen mice and then sticks his hands in his mouth without washing them. This is one big joke....i would bet that somewhere down the line you will find peta or hsus egging this thing on. Btw...you can get salmellia from live mice and rats as well as the raw chicken you buy from the store. Don't see them radiating that!

Fyi, mice direct is going to start radiating all of their product because the fda told them to. Same with the recall. They do not think there is anything wrong with their product, the recall was because the fda said to do it. It is one big joke with the media hyping it up and misleading with their articles. If the fda decides they need to regulate frozen feeders, then get ready to empty out your pocket books because the cost is going to go up!

well said and i agree

OK, this is ALL BS, and if the FDA gets thier way, all frozen feeders suppliers are going to be required to "rediate" all of their product before they sell it,. This means jacked up prices. We are distributors for mice direct. What has happened, is some schmo in England got sick and blamed it on the frozen feeders...they targeted Mice Direct. He wants the same standards that apply to dog food to apply to frozen snake food. And oh yeah, it might give your reptiles samanollia too.....ummm duh....they ALREADY carry it! It is all crap. The "17" cases, were not all Mice Direct products, but frozen feeders from different companies....article doesn't read that way does it. So what idiot handles frozen mice and then sticks his hands in his mouth without washing them. This is one BIG JOKE....I would bet that somewhere down the line you will find PETA or HSUS egging this thing on. BTW...you can get salmellia from LIVE mice and rats as well as the raw chicken you buy from the store. Don't see them radiating that!

FYI, Mice Direct is going to start radiating all of their product because the FDA told them to. Same with the recall. They do not think there is anything wrong with their product, the recall was because the FDA said to do it. It is one BIG JOKE with the media hyping it up and misleading with their articles. If the FDA decides they need to regulate frozen feeders, then get ready to empty out your pocket books because the cost is going to go UP!



Everytime you handle them or your snakes.

:yessir::yessir:

Wow the feds have control over frozen rodents and feeders now. THEY ARE FROZEN WHOLE ANIMALS of course they will be riddled with bacteria. Our snakes think nothing of it....thats what stomach acid is for. I have seen mice directs facility, it is clean. Well as clean as any rodent breeding building. I even saw them gas their rodents and immediately and properly freeze them while visiting.

The smuck who got sick needs to educate himself. Go buy some disposable gloves and a bottle of antibacterial soap.

This is great as soon as I get 90% of my snakes eating FT this comes along. I guess I will need to breed even more rats this winter. Too hot in the summer to breed rats.

If they start regulating things like this.... they might as well be policing wild snakes, making sure that they are not eating anything that could contain any bacteria.

The guy that got sick probably played with his turtle and went and ate a sandwich.

If they start regulating things like this.... they might as well be policing wild snakes, making sure that they are not eating anything that could contain any bacteria.

The guy that got sick probably played with his turtle and went and ate a sandwich.

He probably ate under cooked chicken and played the blame game....

I hate the way that the media and government officials get a hold of something and run with it even when they have little to no clue what is going on.

Take Salmonella for example, their are (according to Bergies Manual 9th edition) 1200 strains of Salmonella that exist. Wonder which of them these 17 cases contracted? I am sure that they didn't test them to the species level since the only effective way to do so is with antigens and that is expensive.

Last semester I was in Microbiology and I took an active air sample for bacteria inside the micro lab. Once I grew the bacteria I tested it to see what I collected. One of the bacteria that grew on the plate was a species of Salmonella (didn't have antigens so I couldn't test it to the species level). And this was floating around in the air! So I wonder just where these people actually contracted their strain of salmonella from.

Just on a side note I have been told by my professors at Stetson that a person is way more likely to contract Salmonella from their kitchen sink than a pet.

I hate the way that the media and government officials get a hold of something and run with it even when they have little to no clue what is going on.

Take Salmonella for example, their are (according to Bergies Manual 9th edition) 1200 strains of Salmonella that exist. Wonder which of them these 17 cases contracted? I am sure that they didn't test them to the species level since the only effective way to do so is with antigens and that is expensive.

Last semester I was in Microbiology and I took an active air sample for bacteria inside the micro lab. Once I grew the bacteria I tested it to see what I collected. One of the bacteria that grew on the plate was a species of Salmonella (didn't have antigens so I couldn't test it to the species level). And this was floating around in the air! So I wonder just where these people actually contracted their strain of salmonella from.

Just on a side note I have been told by my professors at Stetson that a person is way more likely to contract Salmonella from their kitchen sink than a pet.

Please go post this on BP.net...there is a real idiot over there that....well I can't say anything nice so I will shut up......:mad:

Wow the feds have control over frozen rodents and feeders now. THEY ARE FROZEN WHOLE ANIMALS of course they will be riddled with bacteria.

Actually, once they are frozen most all of the bacteria are going to be dead. the rare 0.001% that might live through the process are not going to be enough to cause an active infection... Unless some idiot lets them thaw on a counter for days at a time or keeps freeze thawing over and over...

Our snakes think nothing of it....thats what stomach acid is for.

Ummm... Sorry to be a buzz kill here but enteric bacteria can survive stomach acid... what with it being their native environ and all :p

The smuck who got sick needs to educate himself. Go buy some disposable gloves and a bottle of antibacterial soap.

Interesting factoid: Antibacterial soaps are bad. You are more likely to clean your hands better using no soap than if you use antibacterial. Plus, the active ingredient in antibacterial soaps actually promotes antibiotic resistance.

Take Salmonella for example, their are (according to Bergies Manual 9th edition) 1200 strains of Salmonella that exist. Wonder which of them these 17 cases contracted? I am sure that they didn't test them to the species level since the only effective way to do so is with antigens and that is expensive.

There are strain typing methods that are significantly cheaper, but the FDA does not care about that. While I think it is admirable that MiceDirect do this kind of testing as part of their normal routine I think it is being manipulated to their detriment right now, courtesy of some small-minded moron in a government suit.

So I wonder just where these people actually contracted their strain of salmonella from.

Walls, floors, bathrooms, McDonalds... I can keep going.

Just on a side note I have been told by my professors at Stetson that a person is way more likely to contract Salmonella from their kitchen sink than a pet.

Too right.

Please go post this on BP.net...there is a real idiot over there that....well I can't say anything nice so I will shut up......:mad:

Send me a link... I could dust off the old gloves and go a few rounds :devil:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125259

This is one BIG JOKE....I would bet that somewhere down the line you will find PETA or HSUS egging this thing on. BTW...you can get salmellia from LIVE mice and rats as well as the raw chicken you buy from the store. Don't see them radiating that!

FYI, Mice Direct is going to start radiating all of their product because the FDA told them to. Same with the recall. They do not think there is anything wrong with their product, the recall was because the FDA said to do it. It is one BIG JOKE with the media hyping it up and misleading with their articles. If the FDA decides they need to regulate frozen feeders, then get ready to empty out your pocket books because the cost is going to go UP!

I think it's ridiculous - I do also think your probably right about HSUS possibly being behind it.... money talks - which could possibly be the new line of attack on reptiles.

Official recall statement from Mice Direct

https://micedirect.com/2010recall/index.htm

Wait so you are supposed to wash your hands after you play with dead rats....lmfao

I wash my hands so I don't get tagged by snakes and because the things are dead...sort of like scooping out a big pile of snake shit with your fingers and then eating your sandwich for lunch without washing....freaking geniuses :lmao:

Actually, once they are frozen most all of the bacteria are going to be dead. the rare 0.001% that might live through the process are not going to be enough to cause an active infection... Unless some idiot lets them thaw on a counter for days at a time or keeps freeze thawing over and over...



Ummm... Sorry to be a buzz kill here but enteric bacteria can survive stomach acid... what with it being their native environ and all :p



Interesting factoid: Antibacterial soaps are bad. You are more likely to clean your hands better using no soap than if you use antibacterial. Plus, the active ingredient in antibacterial soaps actually promotes antibiotic resistance.



There are strain typing methods that are significantly cheaper, but the FDA does not care about that. While I think it is admirable that MiceDirect do this kind of testing as part of their normal routine I think it is being manipulated to their detriment right now, courtesy of some small-minded moron in a government suit.



Walls, floors, bathrooms, McDonalds... I can keep going.



Too right.



Send me a link... I could dust off the old gloves and go a few rounds :devil:

You and I both know bacteria does not need to be alive to make one sick. Also, by the time a frozen rodent is thawed out I am sure it is not bacteria free.

My point on stomach acid is snakes are eating rats, mice, and other unclean things raw. I doubt you or I could handle as much. Unless you would like to prove me wrong and dine on a big juicy FT rat. I do understand that stomach acid is not the only thing keeping a snake from getting sick. Their immune system is quite different than ours. But stomach acid does kill the majority of bacteria. Finally, enteric bacteria was not the culprit in this case.

As far as not using soap goes...well thats gross. Do what you want but I highly doubt you would tell your surgeon not to use soap. I am not sure what active ingredient you are referring to in antibacterial soap. I always thought there were different types. Glutaraldehyde is the preferred soap for me. Yes, I have heard stories of certain strains of bacteria actually living in some soaps.

Wait so you are supposed to wash your hands after you play with dead rats....lmfao

First thing my mom said when i told her about this was "Does this guy not realize that these rats are not for human consumption?"


And my FIRST thought was HSUS.....very first.

I just want to let everyone know that for every frozen rodent from Mice Direct my snakes eat, I eat one, too....and I have never gotten sick! True Story!!!

Okay, j/k........but seriously, this is all pretty ridiculous.

So, Mice Direct is the only company that ponied up and is doing the recall, even though other companies could have a part in this as well?

Okay well I tried on BP.net but I am not part of the popular cliche. Normally when I post on a thread it is a thread killer.

Okay well I tried on BP.net but I am not part of the popular cliche. Normally when I post on a thread it is a thread killer.

Yeah, that's why i didn't bother posting over there. I found the crowd over there to be snobbish and too liberal. I left years ago...not sure if I even still have an account over there.

sounded like BS to me too.....i was wondering why they were messing with reptile food not made for humans......so dumb........whats next the FDA putting out a recall on bacteria infested money...just heard that cell phones have more germs than anything we touch in a normal day....thats bad...

I think it's ridiculous - I do also think your probably right about HSUS possibly being behind it.... money talks - which could possibly be the new line of attack on reptiles.

Sounds like they've taken a ploy from the anti-gun lobby....if you can't outlaw guns, then outlaw the ammo.......so if they can't get snakes banned, then ban the food or make it so expensive that no one can afford to feed their snake. :machinegun:

Yeah, that's why i didn't bother posting over there. I found the crowd over there to be snobbish and too liberal. I left years ago...not sure if I even still have an account over there.

I quit years ago too.... cant stand them over there.

sounded like BS to me too.....i was wondering why they were messing with reptile food not made for humans......so dumb........whats next the FDA putting out a recall on bacteria infested money...just heard that cell phones have more germs than anything we touch in a normal day....thats bad...

That, and the bottom of a womans purse... watched a show about that one time... YUCK makes me not wanna own a purse.

Sounds like they've taken a ploy from the anti-gun lobby....if you can't outlaw guns, then outlaw the ammo.......so if they can't get snakes banned, then ban the food or make it so expensive that no one can afford to feed their snake. :machinegun:

Well, in the long run their going to affect more than just snakes, i know of atleast 3 bird rescues around me that rescue birds of prey that order from online rodent distributers..... so the people that are saving the lives of some awesome creatures will also have to deal with this....

You and I both know bacteria does not need to be alive to make one sick.

Yes, it is true that there are some species of bacteria that can leave behind a stable toxin that makes people sick; Bacillus cereus and Staphylococcus aureus being the main ones. But we are talking about Salmonella here and they do not produce a stable toxin. So... in this case, yeah, the bacteria most certainly does have to be alive to make you sick.

Also, by the time a frozen rodent is thawed out I am sure it is not bacteria free.

I never said they were bacteria free. I said that the bacterial load would be too low to cause an infection. A fact I stand by. The only way for the numbers to come up is if the item is improperly thawed (like leaving it out for an extended period of time.)

My point on stomach acid is snakes are eating rats, mice, and other unclean things raw.

What an animal eats has no correlation with its stomach acid being able to kill bacterial. I repeat, enteric bacterial live in the gut and so are evolved to deal with those harsh conditions.

I doubt you or I could handle as much.

Speak for yourself.

And, on a broader scale than the industrialized world, many peoples eat raw and undercooked meats without any major problems. The reasons for this are many and varied and I really do not have the time to go into human evolution and the concordant gut microbiome evolution but there is a lot of good reading out there.

Unless you would like to prove me wrong and dine on a big juicy FT rat.

I will do it if you will. Seriously. No bullshit.

I do understand that stomach acid is not the only thing keeping a snake from getting sick.

We are not talking about snakes getting sick we are talking about humans getting sick from Salmonella supposedly harbored in feeder rats.

But stomach acid does kill the majority of bacteria.

Seriously, no it does not. Not enteric bacteria. Not Firmicutes. Not Bacteroides. Not Clostridium. Not Fusobacterium. Not Eubacterium. Not Ruminococcus. Not Peptococcus. Not Peptostreptococcus. Not Bifidobacterium. Not Escherichia. Not Lactobacillus. Not Bacillus....

Finally, enteric bacteria was not the culprit in this case.

Really? Could have fooled me. We are talking about Salmonella, aka Enteric Fever. Lives in the gastrointestinal tract... transmitted via fecal oral route...

As far as not using soap goes...well thats gross. Do what you want but I highly doubt you would tell your surgeon not to use soap.

Are you purposefully being obtuse?? Seriously?

I did not say to not use soap, I said that you are more likely to clean your hands better using no soap than if you use antibacterial.

There was a scientific study done that divided people into groups; no soap, regular soap and antibacterial soap. Each group washed their hands as they saw fit and then touched a petri-dish to determine how well they washed their hands. The study showed that the group without soap had cleaner hands (i.e. fewer bacteria) because they actually took the time to scrub their hands more to get them clean. The group with the antibacterial soap had the dirtiest hands (i.e. more bacteria) because they half-assed it banking on the antibacterial to kill everything (which it does not.)

I am not sure what active ingredient you are referring to in antibacterial soap. I always thought there were different types. Glutaraldehyde is the preferred soap for me.

I am talking about Triclosan, the number one antibacterial used in all at home products. To the best of my knowledge glutaraldehyde is an industrial disinfectant that is not used in ordinary home use soaps.

Back to Triclosan. This compound is extremely environmentally stable so it just sits there building up where it is used. Constantly acting as a selective agent, breeding for bacteria that are more and more resistant to it. In addition, Triclosan is not effective against a number of notoriously nasty bacteria like Pseudomonas. And Pseudomonas has a really nasty habit of recognizing Triclosan and then activating its virulome which includes genes that promote DNA swapping with its neighbors. In short, it starts passing around its own resistance genes to any other bacteria around. Instant superbug soup...

sounded like BS to me too.....i was wondering why they were messing with reptile food not made for humans......so dumb........whats next the FDA putting out a recall on bacteria infested money...just heard that cell phones have more germs than anything we touch in a normal day....thats bad...

FDA regulates laboratory animal facilities. Granted MiceDirect is not one of those but since 99% of rodent breeding facilities are laboratory animal facilities my guess is that to be registered as a rodent breeder means by default you are a laboratory animal facility. And unfortunately that puts them under the same rules as all the other laboratory facilities. As I said before, I think it is great that MD is acting in a truly professional and responsible manner. It just sucks that narrow-minded simpletons and media-morons cannot grok fact from fiction.

My point on stomach acid is snakes are eating rats, mice, and other unclean things raw. I doubt you or I could handle as much. Unless you would like to prove me wrong and dine on a big juicy FT rat. I do understand that stomach acid is not the only thing keeping a snake from getting sick. Their immune system is quite different than ours. But stomach acid does kill the majority of bacteria.




What an animal eats has no correlation with its stomach acid being able to kill bacterial. I repeat, enteric bacterial live in the gut and so are evolved to deal with those harsh conditions.


We are not talking about snakes getting sick we are talking about humans getting sick from Salmonella supposedly harbored in feeder rats.


Seriously, no it does not. Not enteric bacteria. Not Firmicutes. Not Bacteroides. Not Clostridium. Not Fusobacterium. Not Eubacterium. Not Ruminococcus. Not Peptococcus. Not Peptostreptococcus. Not Bifidobacterium. Not Escherichia. Not Lactobacillus. Not Bacillus....



OK if you were to swallow a rat whole it would rot in your gut and you would get sick. Why? Because our stomach acid does not stay extremely acidic for a week. Could you imagine the heart burn? So you are wrong what an animal eats does have a direct correlation with stomach acid being able to kill bacteria.

Second, read my entire post. I am comparing snakes ability to fend of infection with ours. That was the point of my original post. So I am talking about snakes getting or not getting sick. These feeders are not for human consumption despite what some may think.

Last, while you were absolutely right Salmonella is enteric perhaps you need an anatomy refresher. Just because something can live in the gut does not mean it can survive the acidity of the stomach. Gut does not mean stomach by the way. It is referring to the intestines and colon. Our (or anything's) stomach is the first line of defense. So yes, most bacteria is killed in the stomach including salmonella. By most I mean actual numbers not species. Obviously when something has an extremely high bacteria load some will survive the stomach's acidity and pass through. Before you take me out of context once again let me clarify something. I understand that nothing is simple black and white. There are bacteria that can survive in the lining of our stomach protected from the acid. Once again I am referring to the bulk of the bacteria.

Obviously you are very knowledgeable but you assume too much. You continually ranted about trislocan even after I said I use glutaraldehyde. I have worked in a hospital most of my adult life and I am very familiar with protecting myself and my patients from the spread of infection. I am somewhat obsessive about hand cleanliness. I use a combination of alcohol based hand sanitizers, bleach, and glutaraldehyde soap. I have always used glutaraldehyde for the snakes because it has no fumy smell and it is non-toxic.

FDA regulates laboratory animal facilities. Granted MiceDirect is not one of those but since 99% of rodent breeding facilities are laboratory animal facilities my guess is that to be registered as a rodent breeder means by default you are a laboratory animal facility. And unfortunately that puts them under the same rules as all the other laboratory facilities. As I said before, I think it is great that MD is acting in a truly professional and responsible manner. It just sucks that narrow-minded simpletons and media-morons cannot grok fact from fiction.

If you think government involvement in our feeder supply is a good thing that says a lot about you. I may not be the old or smart but bureaucracy leads to higher costs and a lot of pointless protocols. Just look at these recalls I am sure thats gonna cost money, which translates into cost. Also, if we were to use your reasoning the guy who got sick never should have gotten sick because freezing kills bacteria right? Mice direct has been around for a long time. If they had a substandard product they wouldn't be.

OK if you were to swallow a rat whole it would rot in your gut and you would get sick. Why? Because our stomach acid does not stay extremely acidic for a week. Could you imagine the heart burn? So you are wrong what an animal eats does have a direct correlation with stomach acid being able to kill bacteria.

If I were to swallow a whole rat it would be no different than if I swallowed a whole chicken breast or hamburger patty, my stomach would digest it just the same. About the only difference would be the bones but given how small/thin they are I have no doubt that they would be digested away pretty easy.

Second, read my entire post. I am comparing snakes ability to fend of infection with ours. That was the point of my original post. So I am talking about snakes getting or not getting sick. These feeders are not for human consumption despite what some may think.

But the issue at hand here is a Salmonella strain that does not infect reptiles but is potentially infectious to humans. So it really does not matter what happens in the snake's stomach or how the snake would fight the bacteria... What matters is how a human body would react

Last, while you were absolutely right Salmonella is enteric perhaps you need an anatomy refresher. Just because something can live in the gut does not mean it can survive the acidity of the stomach.
Gut does not mean stomach by the way.It is referring to the intestines and colon.

Actually gut is the entire digestive system of an organism so it includes the stomach along with intestines and colon.

Because Salmonella is transmitted fecal-oral that means it has to travel through the stomach to get to the intestines. So if it died in the stomach it would make a pretty crappy infectious agent. In point of fact Salmonella has at least four major operons for surviving in the acid environment of stomach and can readily tolerate and grow at pH 2-3.

Our (or anything's) stomach is the first line of defense. So yes, most bacteria is killed in the stomach including salmonella. By most I mean actual numbers not species.

But you see even this statement is not wholly true. The stomach is a line of defense, I grant that but it is not a one-stop, catch all line of defense and there are organisms that pass through wholly unaffected and in those cases numbers do not matter so much.

Obviously when something has an extremely high bacteria load some will survive the stomach's acidity and pass through. Before you take me out of context once again let me clarify something. I understand that nothing is simple black and white. There are bacteria that can survive in the lining of our stomach protected from the acid. Once again I am referring to the bulk of the bacteria.

But see, you have been making blanket statements: Bacteria are killed by the stomach acid. Period. Nothing can survive the stomach. Period. And I am just contending that you cannot be making the blanket statements.

Obviously you are very knowledgeable but you assume too much. You continually ranted about trislocan even after I said I use glutaraldehyde. I have worked in a hospital most of my adult life and I am very familiar with protecting myself and my patients from the spread of infection. I am somewhat obsessive about hand cleanliness. I use a combination of alcohol based hand sanitizers, bleach, and glutaraldehyde soap.

I do not assume too much sir, you said you did not know what active ingredient I was talking about and so I answered your question. No assumption there at all. And since Triclosan is the number one product in the majority of at home antibacterial soaps/lotions/creams/toothpastes I went on to explain why I said what I said.

If anything you are the one making assumptions because just because you use glut-type soaps does not mean that everyone else does and odds are most people using antibacterial soaps are not using glut-type soaps

I have always used glutaraldehyde for the snakes because it has no fumy smell and it is non-toxic.

With respect, glutaraldehyde is pretty nasty:

http://www.2spi.com/catalog/msds/glutaraldehyde-aqueous-solution-msds.html

If you think government involvement in our feeder supply is a good thing that says a lot about you. I may not be the old or smart but bureaucracy leads to higher costs and a lot of pointless protocols. Just look at these recalls I am sure thats gonna cost money, which translates into cost.

I never said government involvement was a good thing. Where do you get that??

I said that I thought MD was behaving in a respectable and responsible manner and I applaud them for that. How is that saying government involvement is good??

Also, if we were to use your reasoning the guy who got sick never should have gotten sick because freezing kills bacteria right? Mice direct has been around for a long time. If they had a substandard product they wouldn't be

Given my logic we would all recognize that the guy who got sick may not have gotten it from the feeders... There is a reason the word "suspected" proceeded the word "case". They have not proven that the guy had Salmonella from the feeders only that he had feeders from a facility that had also tested positive for Salmonella. In point of fact I do not even think we have heard conclusive evidence he had Salmonella, only that he was sick... Nor have we heard that his feeders were tested and also found to harbor Salmonella. Unless they can: 1) Show he had Salmonella 2) Serotype his Salmonella to the same Salmonella in his feeders 3) Serotype that Salmonella to the same Salmonella that was found at MiceDirect then and only then could we have something approaching Koch's Postulates. Right now we just have guess work piled on supposition piled on innuendo all blow up by the media twist and spin.

Aspludnii, as always, thank you. You are a refreshing breath of intelligent fresh air.

:)

You are wrong your stomach would not just digest a whole rat. It would require your stomach staying acidic for a very long time. Our body goes through cycles of acidity during the day. A snake stays acidic for a very long time to penetrate their prey and turn it into a more liquid form. We have teeth for a reason, a whole rat would rot. Meaning bacteria would proliferate inside the rat. But this is besides the point really.

Now you are finally getting what I say. Rodents are dirty if I put a dead rat into my mouth I expect to get sick (not if frozen though, right?). I am very aware of sterile procedure and what I touch. This guy who got sick obviously is a moron or just wants some money. These rats are not for human consumption. You talk about a strain potentially infectious to humans but these things are not for humans. THAT IS MY POINT. They are for snakes, that is the only reason I made the comment about stomach acid. Snakes have a stomach that stays acidic for a very long time after eating. This stomach acid kills the vast majority of bacteria they swallow.

Using the term "gut" was wrong on my part I should have referred to "enteric." Enteric was the term in question. Since you feel enteric bacteria can survive stomach acid. You are wrong but I already gave an explanation of survivability of bacteria in stomach acid. There are very few species that call the STOMACH'S ACIDIC ENVIRONMENT home and enteric bacteria as a whole cannot. So you my friend should not make a blanket statement like that. All enteric bacteria do not just make their home in this environment like you stated.

You refer to blanket statements I made. I was referring to snakes amazing ability to digest whole prey with stomach acid (oh, and their digestive system, enzymes, etc..). In the future I will make sure to include immune system and natural flora. I didn't know an E-Paladin would be hanging on every word I type. I don't mean to sound disrespectful but all I said was "thats what stomach acid is for." Considering snake digestive biology that is true. Their extended acidic environment kills the bulk of bacteria. Yes other factors come into play to kill or control bacteria but thats true for any animal and we all know that. In other words, I should not have to state the obvious.

As far as glut goes I have heard bad things about countless products. The MSDS sheet on bleach wouldn't be too pretty but it's great stuff. Glut can be extremely dilute and still be effective. Any chemical is not good if concentrated. Read the warnings and follow the instructions. I just like it because bleach is too hard to wash off. Seems I can always smell it. Plus glut is cheap, buy it concentrated and mix it up. Wear gloves when feeding. Wipe everything down with sprayed glut when done. I have heard of some people having allergies to glut...not me.

I thought your reference to laboratory animal facilities was justifying why the feds can regulate mice direct.

Wow this turned into a pissing match about some retard that doesn't wash his hands...

Look I don't know about enteric, glutaraldehyde, or the other laundry list of bacteria talked about and I won't even lie and google it and say I know a little about them because I don't...

Wash your hands after you play with poop or dead things...that much I know and I haven't gotten salmonella as far as I know yet and with what I do for a living I have had my hands in much worse then what normal people get into on a daily basis....

Just to clarify, the only link between the cases and MD is the strain of salmonella, no where in any official reports has it been stated that the frozen feeder were MD product. Only that the strain of salmonella was the same. Secondly, here is how the FDA tested. They took a sampling of the products, blended it up, and let it sit for 24 hours at room temp. THEN they tested it. All they told MD was that salmonella was present, but would not tell them to what degree. After all that the FDA "recommended" a recall. The recall is completely voluntary on MD's part. This entire ordeal is a complete joke on so many accounts. The fact that so many reptile people are actually believing the media makes me very sad.

Just to clarify, the only link between the cases and MD is the strain of salmonella, no where in any official reports has it been stated that the frozen feeder were MD product. Only that the strain of salmonella was the same. Secondly, here is how the FDA tested. They took a sampling of the products, blended it up, and let it sit for 24 hours at room temp. THEN they tested it. All they told MD was that salmonella was present, but would not tell them to what degree. After all that the FDA "recommended" a recall. The recall is completely voluntary on MD's part. This entire ordeal is a complete joke on so many accounts. The fact that so many reptile people are actually believing the media makes me very sad.

So, for all we know the room they did this in could have had salmonella in it to begin with! I know im going out on a limb here considering most testing places are sparkling clean... So was MD the only product tested?

Wow this turned into a pissing match about some retard that doesn't wash his hands...

Look I don't know about enteric, glutaraldehyde, or the other laundry list of bacteria talked about and I won't even lie and google it and say I know a little about them because I don't...

Wash your hands after you play with poop or dead things...that much I know and I haven't gotten salmonella as far as I know yet and with what I do for a living I have had my hands in much worse then what normal people get into on a daily basis....

You are right this has turned into a pissing match. My first post was only made to vent my frustration at the guy who allegedly got sick. It just bothers me when someone insists on quoting people with the intentions of disproving every little word, phrase, or statement made. To add to that, many of the "facts" this person is stating are not facts at all but conjecture. Even if I were to look up the terms enteric, gut, or enterobacteria in a dictionary or reference this person would insist they are right. It's not very classy for one to criticize a casual generalized statement with arguements that are not fully accurate and just as generalized.

I never started this pissing match. I don't quote people in an attempt to disprove them just for the hell of it. People that do make the web an annoying experience and they come across as a know it all. I do appreciate the many extremely informative posts made by this individual in the past. But in this case your preaching to the choir. Next thing you know I will be debating what is "is"? Lol!

It just bothers me when someone insists on quoting people with the intentions of disproving every little word, phrase, or statement made.

I never started this pissing match. I don't quote people in an attempt to disprove them just for the hell of it.

I reply the way I do to keep the conversation straight in my head. I have long known my mind works different than others, I need a flow that works for me. I am sorry if it does not work for you but I do not do it for you, I do it for me.

People that do make the web an annoying experience and they come across as a know it all.

I sincerely apologize for annoying you. Feel free to call me an :ahole: or put a boot up my :ass:

But in this case your preaching to the choir.

Just because my mother was an English major and I had it drilled into me...

It is "you're" a contraction of "you are"

(Relax, I am just messing with you now)

Next thing you know I will be debating what is "is"? Lol!

No debate needed. This is what "is" is:

(Yes, I am joking around. But 5 points to whoever can name the show.)

White
http://www.mtv.com/onair/the_maxx/images/cast/isz_281x211.jpg

Black
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0iWd54lh9e4/Swr1sggWMnI/AAAAAAAAACA/1-d_0nR7YfM/s1600/isz.jpg

For those interested, they have typed the strain from MD, various bags of feeders in the possession of people who have bought them and from some of the human cases: S. typhimurium DT 191A. Koch's postulates just got a big boost.

It also is being reported that there have been sporadic cases of this strain dating back to 2005, most of those having a suspected feeder association, although none of those cases were followed through to a proof of feeder as vector.

Lol, I know my grammer and spelling is horrible. I never claimed to me smart. YOU ARE (j/k) not an ass by any means, just very informed and argumentative. I try not to look for too many fights. It's part of the reason I avoid some other forums.

I do enjoy your posts on genetics...learned tons. Keep those coming. I hope I in no way discouraged you from keeping us informed.

I would be willing to bet money that the animals rights people are behind all of this. I heard rumors about things that may happen to the rodent industry at least a year ago. This is more then likely just the beginning. I heard that rodents will have to be packaged and labeled like other foods that are sold, with ingredients, warnings, and whatever else on the label. Right now rodents are packaged in zip lock bags, with no information at all. I heard they may even make changes in the way rodents are kept, and how clean their envirnment is. Time will tell, but if these things happen, it will make a small rat cost 10 bucks. It's just another way the animal rights people are trying to ruin it for the rest of us.

Ingredients : Frozen Rat....
Warning: Not for human consumption, wash hands before and after handling product.

Lol.... i would say obvious things, buttttt then again thats why it says on hair straightener warning labels that they can burn eyes....because some dumb blonde probably tried to straighten her eyelashes.

I sure hope the price of a rat doesnt go up to $10.... i'll be forced to keep rats and breed them myself....i really dont wanna do that

This reminds me of the case several years ago where the woman sued McDonalds because she spilled coffee on herself, and it burned her....because (who'da thunk it)...coffee is HOT!!!

Common sense is an oxymoron.

You and I both know bacteria does not need to be alive to make one sick. Also, by the time a frozen rodent is thawed out I am sure it is not bacteria free.

My point on stomach acid is snakes are eating rats, mice, and other unclean things raw. I doubt you or I could handle as much. Unless you would like to prove me wrong and dine on a big juicy FT rat. I do understand that stomach acid is not the only thing keeping a snake from getting sick. Their immune system is quite different than ours. But stomach acid does kill the majority of bacteria. Finally, enteric bacteria was not the culprit in this case.

As far as not using soap goes...well thats gross. Do what you want but I highly doubt you would tell your surgeon not to use soap. I am not sure what active ingredient you are referring to in antibacterial soap. I always thought there were different types. Glutaraldehyde is the preferred soap for me. Yes, I have heard stories of certain strains of bacteria actually living in some soaps.


Salmonella is enteric bacteria..Enterobacteriaceae... they arent destroyed by freezing.. They are normal flora in many species... They are acid sensitive... however ingestion of a large number can cause gastroenteritis...

If the FDA starts regulating our feeders this will drive our costs way up....

I find it funny the FDA wants to worry about frozen rodents when they don't have the time to evaluate all the diet pills etc all over the market for human consumption and half of those end up causing serious health problems later in life. Where is the freaking priorities?

I find it funny the FDA wants to worry about frozen rodents when they don't have the time to evaluate all the diet pills etc all over the market for human consumption and half of those end up causing serious health problems later in life. Where is the freaking priorities?

I think its just a ratio thing.

ON the whole, there's probably more people who don't want other people owning snakes than there are people who like owning snakes. Of that faction, I'm sure there's a good deal that deep down, really don't care either way, but are easily gulled by the media.

---------------------

On the flip side, there's likely a lot more people out there who are perfectly content with these diet pills, regardless of alleged consequences, than there are people who are against them.

Keep the majority happy, right?

Wait so you are supposed to wash your hands after you play with dead rats....lmfao

I wash my hands so I don't get tagged by snakes and because the things are dead...sort of like scooping out a big pile of snake shit with your fingers and then eating your sandwich for lunch without washing....freaking geniuses :lmao:

Jeff,
:lmao::lmao::lmao:Now that was the funniest statement in this whole ordeal, thanks for the great laugh, nothing like a good old fashioned turd sandwich or fart joke to end my long day.
Jeff