There just doesn't seem much to a Soft Furred, but I acquired an 800g female cinny, fed her two ASF's a week in a single sitting.... sometimes 3... 6 weeks later she tipped the scales at 1400g

I thought there was something wrong with the scale, but not so. The ASF's really seem to work wonders, not just with getting some problematic feeders started, but with putting on weight with females without power feeding them.

Who else uses ASF's?

I really need to get me some of those!

I have 3 that I use them on (because they won't eat anything else) one male pastel, an older female (just won't gain weight) and one that hit a wall but the ASF's brought her through, she was 900 grams a few months ago and one or two a week since then has her up to 1300 grams as of last week.

I have used them on the colubrids for a few years now and I have a 1200+ gram two and a half year old female if that is any indication. One per week her since she hatched....

I have 3 that I use them on (because they won't eat anything else) one male pastel, an older female (just won't gain weight) and one that hit a wall but the ASF's brought her through, she was 900 grams a few months ago and one or two a week since then has her up to 1300 grams as of last week.

I have used them on the colubrids for a few years now and I have a 1200+ gram two and a half year old female if that is any indication. One per week her since she hatched....

Interesting.... good stuff too!

I have seen the same results and feed off over a hundred asf's a week. I found that girls that would go off feed during breeding would hit them......

I have a girl here that needed some weight before breeding. I hit her with 12 ASF over 5 weeks , filled her out pretty damn good.

They may be small but quite beefy.

I too have found out that ASF's for some reason due put on weight..
Kevin

I believe it may just be the females take them more consistently they regular mice or rats. Too bad they grow so damn slow...

OK, not meaning to poke a stick in anybody's spokes here, as I don't use ASFs. I do understand that they're good for getting problem feeders to eat again. Have also heard that once you feed ASFs to someone it's difficult to get them off again. Mind you, this is all heresay. Also, they are small, yes. What's an average weight for an ASF? Looks to me like two ASFs equals one high end med. or low end large rat. To me it seems like you would get equal weight gain either way. Just my take on this.

Yes and no, some imprint and some don't...I have 2 (siblings in fact) that will eat nothing but asf's. Problem is when they will only eat one a week for me, most of mine range from retired breeders (about the size of a small rat) to just reaching adult (about the size of a small weaned rat).

I am curious to the growth rates and any difference after a certain amount of time. If I am lucky enough to finally get some eggs this year I may give it a go to see....

Oh and the BP's seem to be the only thing that imprints so far, got a carpet to just switch to them off of mice so hopefully she will go to rats next but the corns and baby boas suck them down and go to rats the next meal no problem.

There just doesn't seem much to a Soft Furred, but I acquired an 800g female cinny, fed her two ASF's a week in a single sitting.... sometimes 3... 6 weeks later she tipped the scales at 1400g

I thought there was something wrong with the scale, but not so. The ASF's really seem to work wonders, not just with getting some problematic feeders started, but with putting on weight with females without power feeding them.

Who else uses ASF's?

thats good to know

I have 2 colonies started and I cant wait to start using them. Especially with my mouse eaters. There are pros and cons to everything. I know a guy who tried feeding 2 balls that were problem feeders ASFs and they wouldnt touch them. But im excited to try them and see the weight gain and judge for myself how much I like them.

OK, not meaning to poke a stick in anybody's spokes here, as I don't use ASFs. I do understand that they're good for getting problem feeders to eat again. Have also heard that once you feed ASFs to someone it's difficult to get them off again. Mind you, this is all heresay. Also, they are small, yes. What's an average weight for an ASF? Looks to me like two ASFs equals one high end med. or low end large rat. To me it seems like you would get equal weight gain either way. Just my take on this.

I like em, I think it really depends on the individual animal as to if it will eat mice or rats again after eating ASF's.... I have em all, mouse eaters only, asf only, won't eat Asf's at all and a lot that eat anything deal.... I feel they gain weight really well on ASF's.... no data to back up!

I have 2 colonies started and I cant wait to start using them. Especially with my mouse eaters. There are pros and cons to everything. I know a guy who tried feeding 2 balls that were problem feeders ASFs and they wouldnt touch them. But im excited to try them and see the weight gain and judge for myself how much I like them.

I love the no stench that comes with ASF's....

I like em, I think it really depends on the individual animal as to if it will eat mice or rats again after eating ASF's.... I have em all, mouse eaters only, asf only, won't eat Asf's at all and a lot that eat anything deal.... I feel they gain weight really well on ASF's.... no data to back up!



I love the no stench that comes with ASF's....

I think they stink still but not anywhere near as bad as mice or rats.

I think they stink still but not anywhere near as bad as mice or rats.


IMO - they have more of a musky hemp like smell than the typical rodent urine smell. It seems like you can take more time in between cleanings before it starts to really stink but when it does stink it's a much more tolerable stink.

IMO - they have more of a musky hemp like smell than the typical rodent urine smell. It seems like you can take more time in between cleanings before it starts to really stink but when it does stink it's a much more tolerable stink.

I agree. I dont clean their tubs nearly as often as I do the rats.

mine ate 6 at one time the other day! adult ASFs too.

Musky hemp like smell http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/QuigsPlace/scratch1.gif??? Tosha, Tosha, Tosha, are you gettin' buzzed off yer ASFs ? :lmao:

I went back to my Degei records and have 2 similar sized girls that ate similar sized meals for the past 3 months. One girl ate small rats and the other large ASF, the small rats and large ASF are very close in size. The girl who is eating ASF has gained almost 150 grams more than the rat eater. Both have eaten 2 food items per week.

Maybe my logic is off -- but I would think that while similar in size, an adult ASF would be more nutritional than a juvenile rat, simply because it's fully developed. That could account for better the growth.

I maybe wrong but I believe that ASFs have a higher fat content that traditional rats which may account for the extra weight. :dunno:

I maybe wrong but I believe that ASFs have a higher fat content that traditional rats which may account for the extra weight. :dunno:

I think you're right Tosha, the bone to fat ratio (if there was such a thing) is higher on ASF. So per gram I think they carry more fat(and protein) and less bone mass. :dunno:

I think you're right Tosha, the bone to fat ratio (if there was such a thing) is higher on ASF. So per gram I think they carry more fat(and protein) and less bone mass. :dunno:

But it's a natural food for bps right?

But it's a natural food for bps right?

Indeed -- but for wild balls that would be feeding only a few times a year and then living off their meal for quite some time - metabolizing that fat not storing it up like ours that sit in a tub all day and get fed once a week.

But it's a natural food for bps right?

:yessir:

Indeed -- but for wild balls that would be feeding only a few times a year and then living off their meal for quite some time - metabolizing that fat not storing it up like ours that sit in a tub all day and get fed once a week.

But for feeding purposes of weight gain in breeding animals they should work well for also. :yessir:

But for feeding purposes of weight gain in breeding animals they should work well for also. :yessir:

Still think fat balls is why y'all keep complaining about slugs :dunno: :lmao:

Indeed -- but for wild balls that would be feeding only a few times a year and then living off their meal for quite some time - metabolizing that fat not storing it up like ours that sit in a tub all day and get fed once a week.

How do we know how often they are feeding.... and on what?


I wonder if there is a diff between captive produced ASF's and their wild counter parts? Difference in bone density and fat levels.... it's not like they do much in captivity... I wonder if that changes things like that?

Actually I think BPs eat mostly Gerboas in the wild which are a cousin to the Gerbil.

Actually I think BPs eat mostly Gerboas in the wild which are a cousin to the Gerbil.

So are they eating a range of small mammals?

Still think fat balls is why y'all keep complaining about slugs :dunno: :lmao:

Who's complaining about slugs? :dunno: I think slugs have to do more with ambient temps during breeding season, but that's just me.

Who's complaining about slugs? :dunno: I think slugs have to do more with ambient temps during breeding season, but that's just me.

Yeah, most of my females are lean - one slugged out completely. It could be just a fertile issue or some other not noticed change to conditions.... who knows :dunno:

So are they eating a range of small mammals?

Im not sure. They may be eating young grass cutter rats as well as they are found in the same areas as Balls. Im not sure what all they eat though.

Im not sure. They may be eating young grass cutter rats as well as they are found in the same areas as Balls. Im not sure what all they eat though.

Be interesting to find out. :cool:

This is a good thread.I may be attaining some breeder morph females that have a history of being problem feeders.ASF's may be in their future.But I dont want,or have'nt planned on my entire collection switching over to them.Do ya'll think the others will pick up on their scent and go away from traditional rats?

i fed off my asf's breeders this week.had them for three months 3.12 had only 2 litters and none survied...............bye bye.....gonna try again later goona try rats im having better success!

I have Carpets that imprint and also Ball that have imprinted to ASF. I have a ghost that would eat rats or asf. I scented the rats with some asf bedding. I have a few hatchlings from this year. Might be interesting to get one on rats and one on asf and see where this elads. Of course two of the normals took rat pinks right away.

I can't own ASF's! :nono: Thanks California!

I have a couple bps who eats ASFs and will switch back to rats every once in a while but are mainly only ASF eaters. One of my bee hatchlings this year will only eats ASFs, tried for 6 weeks after her first shed on rats and mice and nothing, threw an ASF hopper in there and BAM! She now gets them every 3 days.

I like ASFs and wish I had more of them, if they grew as fast as regular rats but maintained their adult size thats all I would strictly breed.

I have a few that seem to like them I produce mine. I have a overage tray thats always full

I can't own ASF's! :nono: Thanks California!

What I would do if I were you is get them anyways and call them 'Special Gerbils' no one would ever know the difference.

I breed ASFs (have had two colonies going for about two months or so now, just started a third two weeks ago). Though my collection is small (13 snakes) all of them except one will eat rats or ASFs with no problem.

I originally got in to ASFs because I had a picky eater, tried everything then finally found a local supplier of ASFs at a great price (a dollar a rat) and she ate three in one sitting. That and their lack of any noticeable odor is why I think they make such awesome feeders. They also tend to produce a ton of babies at a time (though a few of my females have been slacking and only popping out 4-6 babies!), but on the flip side they take a long time to reach meal size for an adult BP. I don't really keep records but its around 3 weeks gestation, 3-4 til they are weaned and another month in the grow up tank. But once you get going they are dirt cheap to produce (they do great on hog feed which only runs 10-15 bucks for a 50lb back, and I give mine some bird seed, the kind with a lot of millet and sunflower seeds).

Only problem is their size, you need a lot more ASFs to satisfy a large female than you would with normal rats. Thats why I buy around 20 or so weaned / small rats every week or so on top of my breeding (and I usually pick up some ASFs at the same time, I like to have a good supply of feeders on hand at all times). I feed off most of the rats in one night and then if needed give some snakes a couple ASFs mid week.

So out of all my snakes not one that has had the delicious taste of an ASF has later refused a rat. But thats just been my personal experience.

peace

Who's complaining about slugs? :dunno: I think slugs have to do more with ambient temps during breeding season, but that's just me.

So, you think it is because the girls don't cool down enough? Or that the temps go too low?

I have 3 breeding groups of 1.2 ASF and I prefer not to feed any to any of my snakes. I usually end up selling to local people who want them. I only have 1 snake who I have to feed a couple ASF once in a while she eats med rats but about every couple months she will stop for a few weeks and I switch to a ASF she eats a couple of them and then next week offer her a rat and she is good. Kinda like a ASF is a snack for her and she just wants one every once in a while.

What I would do if I were you is get them anyways and call them 'Special Gerbils' no one would ever know the difference.

Need to add a :lol: or something so that people don't think you're seriously advocating bringing a possible invasive speices into an area that they could destroy the ecosystem in a matter of months.

So, you think it is because the girls don't cool down enough? Or that the temps go too low?

I think most of us keep breeding girls too warm and don't have adequate temp gradient. Listen to the Marc Bailey show on Reptile Radio. :yessir:

I think that imprint feeders are a common misconception. If you have a snake thats picky about rats and you give it a soft fur that it likes, of course its going to continue to like them and be picky about everything else. We have been feeding ASFs along with rats in our collection of around 100 balls for a couple years now and IMO if a snake will eat rats, giving it soft furs will not make it only eat soft furs. As for the weight gain, ASFs seem to be more dense than rats at the same visual size. Take a rat and a soft fur that look the same size and weigh them. ASFs are almost always heavier, which would account for the better weight gain. This is just my experience but I have found ASFs to be a very valuable feeder for our collection.

I rather feed ASFs but the dang things take too long to grow.Mine grow fast & good on ASFs they also prefer them I had rat eaters go to ASFs & now would touch a rat but will tag a ASF soon as it hits the floor of the tub.Also some that went off feed were got back on feed by trying rat pups not ASF's ,tried to keep them on rats.

I will say that it is true asfs put on more weight. I have a super hot pastel female that absolutely refused to eat rats. I had no intentions of keeping her on mice for ever so I got a breeding group of asfs.

There were some lean times while tryin to feed my snakes and waiting and waiting and waiting for the damned soft furs to get big enough to feed off.

Well she is now just shy of 1000g, she was an aug 08 baby that weighed 94g in november when i got her. I would have to show you my feed card to really see why I am so amazed, there are alot of 10-12 day stretches with no food.

I think it also depends on the snake each grow differently faster & slower.

I think it also depends on the snake each grow differently faster & slower.


Agreed. Also, agreed about how much it sucks that they grow so slow. Especially after they hit the 30g mark. I have 9 breeding groups and I supplement by buying live ones from a breeder near me. Also not all my snakes take ASFs, some are still on rats and I plan to keep them that way just for expense reasons.

I am in the camp that thinks ASFs promote faster growth. To what extent I don't know, but I think they definitely pack more of a punch vs rats or mice gram for gram (at least in getting the snake up to adult size, may be different between going from say 100g to 1000g than going from 1500g to 2500g).

What I would do if I were you is get them anyways and call them 'Special Gerbils' no one would ever know the difference.

Hell we can't even have gerbils here! :machinegun:

Hell we can't even have gerbils here! :machinegun:

Good grief!

I dont know if anyone has thought about feeding asf''s to the males only to get size and weight on them, but my male that i tested on went from 300g to 800g in a 4 month period. The other male that was his size only made it to 600g at the end of my testing. Just something to think about.

A big retired asf breeder is thick & heavy compared to a rat & my bp's love them.

IMO - they have more of a musky hemp like smell than the typical rodent urine smell. It seems like you can take more time in between cleanings before it starts to really stink but when it does stink it's a much more tolerable stink.

Roger that!
I have 12 breeder bins and 2 huge raise out bins in my snake room and they smell less than the 6 mouse bins I have going.
I really need to feed off the mice and use those bins for ASFs but I've been breeding the mice for genetics (LMFAO) and its hard to let go of projects:dunno:

I've found that in the right temp conditions all of my BPs will take any of the 3 common feeders; I usually feed high quality F/T rats (thaks trev) and live ASFs and mice from my racks.
IMO there is alot to be said about feeding a varied diet so that sold animals will continue to feed for new owners regardless of prey item.

ASFs are a natural prey item; I'd venture a guess and say that BPs are pretty much designed by evolution for maximum efficency in processing ASFs.
my 2cents

I decided last year to do an experiment. 2 females of a clutch eat exclusively ASFs and their sibs eat rats. As of now my ASF eaters are 800 grams past their rat eating counterparts. I only have a clutch of four as a control group but the results were astounding.
only one has been bred. Virgin girl and 8 perfect eggs no slugs. She laid in June and is now back at 1600 grams. ASF eaters seem to defecate less even after eating multiple rodents. I think nutrient absorption is much better with ASFs. I also believe multiple smaller meals are more effective for steady growth than one jumbo rat . I think smaller prey items offer a chance for better absorption and digestion thank huge meals. I am only a small breeder and these are my findings. I'm sure there are a few breeders with extensive experience with this . Great thread

I raise rats, mice, and asf's. I have one snake that won't touch an asf. I also got a male enchi cheap this year because the person could not get him to eat. He loves asf's and gained 500 grams in 4 months. He has also locked with 2 females for me already! After steady feeding of asf's he has also taken 2 rats for me. I have never had a problem getting a snake off of them:)

I may sound weird, but my snakes like a change in their diet every so often. I mix things up and don't have any issues.

Are ASF's what we call multis here in the UK? If so I can echo their ability to put weight on a female. I had a very very poor feeder who would not go over 600g (she's an 08, I think) but, now that she is feeding on multis has hit 850g and is feeding and growing steadily. She may even hit breeding size/weight in the forseeable future but I was previously starting to wonder if she was permanently stunted. Also I have a male pied who eats nothing but gerbils and the amount of weight that he retains from oneof these is impressive-he was another that really didn't like rats. I have noticed that both of these royals produce less wet urine compared to rat feeders and it appears to me that rats contain a much higher %age of water compared to either multis or gerbils. Both of these come from more arrid regions and seem to be much more solid food in the sense of being drier-is that why they pack more food value?

multis = ASF

Pitoon

multis = ASF

Pitoon

I guessed that was the case but thank you for the clarification.

The way I have determined that asf's are nutritionally superior is the poop. I have found that balls on asf's poop a lot less then ones on normal rats... Thats gotta mean something.

ASF eaters seem to defecate less even after eating multiple rodents. I think nutrient absorption is much better with ASFs. I also believe multiple smaller meals are more effective for steady growth than one jumbo rat . I think smaller prey items offer a chance for better absorption and digestion thank huge meals. I am only a small breeder and these are my findings. I'm sure there are a few breeders with extensive experience with this . Great thread

:yes: :master: :yessir::yessir:
hit the nail on the head IMO

I breed ASFs and rats to supplement my frozen and feed hatchlings. I have fed all but 1 of my snakes ASFs without any of them imprinting, the other one won't touchem. I have found they do add weight nicely. I had an order for mice in and the rodent breeder screwed me, so I picked up 50 ASFs istead. Let me tell you they got all my borderline girls up to breeding size. When I ran out I switched all back to rats without missing a single feeding. I had a lull in the ASF breedings so I'm currently not feeding any and letting them all grow out.

I decided last year to do an experiment. 2 females of a clutch eat exclusively ASFs and their sibs eat rats. As of now my ASF eaters are 800 grams past their rat eating counterparts. I only have a clutch of four as a control group but the results were astounding.
only one has been bred. Virgin girl and 8 perfect eggs no slugs. She laid in June and is now back at 1600 grams. ASF eaters seem to defecate less even after eating multiple rodents. I think nutrient absorption is much better with ASFs. I also believe multiple smaller meals are more effective for steady growth than one jumbo rat . I think smaller prey items offer a chance for better absorption and digestion thank huge meals. I am only a small breeder and these are my findings. I'm sure there are a few breeders with extensive experience with this . Great thread


Seems to be my findings as well. ASF's seem to get Balls to pack on weight faster and they defecate less.

People need to keep in mind rats are not native to Africa or anywhere else for that matter, other than Asia where they originated. Balls may very well absorb them less efficiently than ASF's because they didn't evolve eating them.