This is my first post on the BLBC and aside from rebuttal, will likely be my last. I would like to request that some of the RR veterans chime in to clarify some things for me. Before I do though I would like to address a few points. First I do understand the toll severe depression can take on a persons life and therein the
choices that they make. Also I do acknowledge that it was a stand-up act of Kara to come here to explain her actions. However there are some things I just cannot comprehend.

I've noticed a trend on this forum, if someone in the industry is a "flipper" or "market crasher" they are pure and utter scum. Why? Flipping animals as many here would describe it, is what every single reptile and pet store who does not breed its own stock does. However depending on the circumstances I could see how this could merit labeling a person scum. Market crashing on the other hand is a completely different matter, they are scum because they prevent breeders from making top dollar on investments. Wait....don't many members here get agitated when they believe a breeder is only such because they are after the all mighty dollar, double standards me thinks.

My biggest request though is that someone please explain to me why these things constitute calling people scum, yet someone who is hosting there collection at a facility belonging to world renowned breeders is praised because they had the nerve, not courage to come and "apologize" for brutally
abusing a large number of animals they supposedly love. I say nerve because I do not understand how under any circumstances on a forum such as this every member was not outraged that this happened, period. I cannot even fathom how Kara could assume this rational... She became depressed after having some issues with her collection, only to than turn around and neglect her animals because of this? Once again I think this has more to do with money rather than a supposed passion for these wonderful animals. Which is where my last question stems from, how can a forum which hosts some of the most respected breeders in America accept this behavior? Flame away :cheers:

Obviously you are here to stir up crap and leave or you wouldnt be here taking jabs at everything this forum stands for. I wont even entertain answering your questions since you wont be here to read them anyway. Go away trouble maker!

I am here and awaiting responses, I am genuinely interested to hear people opinions. To me, your response screams that of a person who was called out on having double standards in an already hurting industry. Please explain why anything I have questioned is acceptable.

I am here and awaiting responses, I am genuinely interested to hear people opinions. To me, your response screams that of a person who was called out on having double standards in an already hurting industry. Please explain why anything I have questioned is acceptable.

Excuse me? Maybe if you went back and read that thread you would see I was one of the people condemming her for her actions. Double standards? How in the living hell can you even suggest I have double standards when you dont even know me? Sounds to me like you came her spoiling for a fight. You want a fight I can give you one hell of a fight.... But dont question my ethics pal.

I apologize, you are absolutely right in that I do not know you and do not have the right to make such accusations. I am NOT looking for a fight, truth be told I find myself to be a bit of a bleeding heart when it comes to animal abuse and am quite infuriated by the turn that thread took because of what? She apologized? Give me a break!

I am not happy with what she did and neither are a lot of people who frequent this forum. I personally dont think there is an excuse for what she did.
Now, what was your point for coming here and bringing this back up after almost a year? Hidden agenda maybe? Who are you?

So why exactly are you here? Why bring all this back up? If you read the thread I believe it shows the progression of how yes as an group we were shocked and appalled. But she had the courage to come here and explain what happened. I see honor in that. She owns the wrong in what happened and will live with it forever. Our responses to her after her post is not accepting what she did as okay but accepting the ownership she takes in what happened.

Hope that clarifies it.

Not that I want any part of the drama but I would be interested to read the original thread....
Link?

~Beth

Okay, having had a second to gather my thoughts and calm myself down I have this to say. Honestly I did not realize that the thread was almost a year old. initially I decided to post because I could not accept that a forum of passionate reptile keepers such as yourselves would just shake that off with an apology. Than it dawned on me that how many of the posters here would be so quick to cheer on a flipper or market crasher because they said "I'm sorry I did it, don't worry my collection is even bigger now" and yet were so quick to do so for an animal abuser, because in the end no matter why she did what she did she still abused MANY animals. As an animal lover which is worse, pointlessly killing animals or selling them cheaper than another breeder? I am nobody in particular, apparently just a reptile hobbyist with too much time and fingers that work faster than my brain :o for that I also apologize.

So just what are you accusing the members of this forum of? Being more lenient on an animal abuser than a flipper or market crasher? Let me ask you this since you seem to be the expert on forum etiquette..... How many flippers or market crashers have you ever seen come here and explain why they did the things they did? How many have actually apologized and admitted they were wrong? NOT A DAMN ONE! Can you see the difference now?

Resale is not flipping.

If someone imports, buys or acquires an animal, quarantines it, establishes or verifies its health and feeding and then sells it for a profit without misrepresenting it ... can't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

Flipping is acquiring an animal and rapidly selling it for a profit to avoid the "overhead" of proper husbandry. There is no way to know if the animal is ill, loaded with parisites, or in poor health; all 3 are common with flipped animals. They are simply treated as a commodity to be moved as fast as possible, often a market crashing prices to move them along quickly. Everyone here should have a problem with that.

Market crashing is cranking out as many offspring as you possibly can regardless of market conditions. Overproduction leads to oversupply, decreasing demand and desireability, lowering value etc. etc.

or

Selling animals at far below market value just to move them out quickly.

Both go hand in hand with shoddy husbandry and shady character i.e.: scum.

Where is the double standard you speak of?

Resale is not flipping.

If someone imports, buys or acquires an animal, quarantines it, establishes or verifies its health and feeding and then sells it for a profit without misrepresenting it ... can't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

Flipping is acquiring an animal and rapidly selling it for a profit to avoid the "overhead" of proper husbandry. There is no way to know if the animal is ill, loaded with parisites, or in poor health; all 3 are common with flipped animals. They are simply treated as a commodity to be moved as fast as possible, often a market crashing prices to move them along quickly. Everyone here should have a problem with that.

Market crashing is cranking out as many offspring as you possibly can regardless of market conditions. Overproduction leads to oversupply, decreasing demand and desireability, lowering value etc. etc.

or

Selling animals at far below market value just to move them out quickly.

Both go hand in hand with shoddy husbandry and shady character i.e.: scum.

Where is the double standard you speak of?

Damn good post brother! :yes:

Of course I can, from your apparent views on the subject I can tell you are either a breeder or are someone close to a breeder who benefits from revenue brought in by this hobby. Which I would like to point out is perfectly acceptable. So I can see the difference and also why that would bother you and most of the posters on this site. It's not even these views which sparked my decision to post this thread, it is the that in a hobby such as this where the hobby itself should always be held above money because it includes living creatures people sometimes have clouded judgement about what is acceptable and what is not. Without pointing fingers at anyone, as you said I do not have that right without having known the accused, why did nobody in a hobby such as this have the "courage" to tell this person what they did was horrible instead of ass-kissing when that would not have been the case *if* a market crasher would have apologized for what they'd done, because in the end it is done and the market is ruined. In turn I must ask as reptile lovers why does this matter in the end if you eventually at least make enough to provide your collection with optimal care? Keep in mind I have a complete different opinion if the victims of market crashing entirely rely on reptile breeding as a source of income.

Resale is not flipping.

If someone imports, buys or acquires an animal, quarantines it, establishes or verifies its health and feeding and then sells it for a profit without misrepresenting it ... can't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

Flipping is acquiring an animal and rapidly selling it for a profit to avoid the "overhead" of proper husbandry. There is no way to know if the animal is ill, loaded with parisites, or in poor health; all 3 are common with flipped animals. They are simply treated as a commodity to be moved as fast as possible, often a market crashing prices to move them along quickly. Everyone here should have a problem with that.

Market crashing is cranking out as many offspring as you possibly can regardless of market conditions. Overproduction leads to oversupply, decreasing demand and desireability, lowering value etc. etc.

or

Selling animals at far below market value just to move them out quickly.

Both go hand in hand with shoddy husbandry and shady character i.e.: scum.

Where is the double standard you speak of?

I do agree, great post. However as far as the second half of your explanation
of market crashing goes, I do not agree. This is where the factor of the situation do apply where as with animal abuse they never do. People may have many reasons for needing to move animals fast and for this reason I believe selling an animal even much cheaper than market price is sometimes acceptable and as such does not go hand in hand with either husbandry or character of seller.

Of course I can, from your apparent views on the subject I can tell you are either a breeder or are someone close to a breeder who benefits from revenue brought in by this hobby. Which I would like to point out is perfectly acceptable. So I can see the difference and also why that would bother you and most of the posters on this site. It's not even these views which sparked my decision to post this thread, it is the that in a hobby such as this where the hobby itself should always be held above money because it includes living creatures people sometimes have clouded judgement about what is acceptable and what is not. Without pointing fingers at anyone, as you said I do not have that right without having known the accused, why did nobody in a hobby such as this have the "courage" to tell this person what they did was horrible instead of ass-kissing when that would not have been the case *if* a market crasher would have apologized for what they'd done, because in the end it is done and the market is ruined. In turn I must ask as reptile lovers why does this matter in the end if you eventually at least make enough to provide your collection with optimal care? Keep in mind I have a complete different opinion if the victims of market crashing entirely rely on reptile breeding as a source of income.

Did you even read the entire thread?????? I dont think you did or you would have seen how hard everyone came down on her. Start from post one and read forward, not just the last page. I still get the feeling you have a hidden agenda for some reason.... you never did answer my question... who are you?

I do agree, great post. However as far as the second half of your explanation
of market crashing goes, I do not agree. This is where the factor of the situation do apply where as with animal abuse they never do. People may have many reasons for need to move animals fast and for this reason I believe selling an animal even much cheaper than market price is sometimes acceptable and as such does not go hand in hand with either husbandry or character of seller.

I call bullshit on that. I have had animals I needed to sell quickly also but I did not post them on an open forum for hundreds of dollars below market value to do it. Everyone gets "friend" deals on occasion. We are talking about posting ads on every forum out there with prices far below market value. What happens when people see these low prices? The prices drop so they can stay competitive with the market.

I realize now my premature posting of this thread has destroyed my possible eventual reputation on this site, my loss. I do enjoy this site very much, but I did disagree with some peoples opinions and have handled myself terribly. Maybe it would have been better for myself having the opportunity to post my opinion to Kara in the original thread:dunno:. I think maybe I will enjoy this site as lurker as I have and one day I can learn to better compose myself at which time I will hopefully be a positive contributing member. My apologies for wasting your time and bandwidth.

Did you even read the entire thread?????? I dont think you did or you would have seen how hard everyone came down on her. Start from post one and read forward, not just the last page. I still get the feeling you have a hidden agenda for some reason.... you never did answer my question... who are you?

I am not comfortable posting my exact information on a public forum on which I do not intend to sell animals. I am a reptile keeper and small local hobbyist breeder, nothing more as far as this forum is concerned. I have apologized for my stupidity (which I do not expect forgiveness for, given the contents of the thread) and I am done posting unless I feel I can reply, with an honest opinion in a composed manner which I am entitled to.

I call bullshit on that. I have had animals I needed to sell quickly also but I did not post them on an open forum for hundreds of dollars below market value to do it. Everyone gets "friend" deals on occasion. We are talking about posting ads on every forum out there with prices far below market value. What happens when people see these low prices? The prices drop so they can stay competitive with the market.

Thanks guys, I guess a monkey at a typewriter can output something coherent from time to time. I see a lot of people use resale and flipper interchangably and they are not the same term.

I agree, there is some conditional allowance. The "friend deal" isn't advertised on Cheapsnake. The browned out super pastel doesn't get top dollar either. I think market crashing in tied to the seller's character.

I can see the other side of the coin to some degree also. (but don't agree with). Some cry market fixing or collusion when they see breeders trying to protect values. I don't think market savvy decisions are viewed as the genius they truly are. No one is under obligation to keep pumping out the latest and greatest combos until the price point comes down to your acceptable level, whatever level that may be. Wise management of a project may mean you don't produce as many as you did last year.

Thanks guys, I guess a monkey at a typewriter can output something coherent from time to time. I see a lot of people use resale and flipper interchangably and they are not the same term.

I agree, there is some conditional allowance. The "friend deal" isn't advertised on Cheapsnake. The browned out super pastel doesn't get top dollar either. I think market crashing in tied to the seller's character.

I can see the other side of the coin to some degree also. (but don't agree with). Some cry market fixing or collusion when they see breeders trying to protect values. I don't think market savvy decisions are viewed as the genius they truly are. No one is under obligation to keep pumping out the latest and greatest combos until the price point comes down to your acceptable level, whatever level that may be. Wise management of a project may mean you don't produce as many as you did last year.

You are correct! A reseller ensures the animals are healthy and eating before throwing a price tag on them. This is why I sell to very few pet shops because there are only 2 I can trust as of right now. I know those people will properly care for the animals I sell them also! A flipper and reseller are MILES apart in my book!

Regarding the specific incident in question, I would much rather have someone who has royally and indefensibly screwed up and expresses deep remorse and seeks forgiveness over the situation. There are plenty of people who careen from trainwreck to trainwreck in life without the slightest thought of consequenses or regret over their actions. They leave a trail of destruction in their lives and the lives of everyone they touch.

As a recipient of Christ's grace, I can't help but extend a measure of it to someone who truly regrets what they've done and seeks forgiveness. To do less for me would make me a Hypocrite. Doesn't justify what's been done or erase all consequences, but we all need some forgiveness from time to time.

Not to turn this into a flipper/reseller debate.....you show me a "reseller" that holds onto animals and won't sell them right away and I'll show you a pig flying.....Most of them don't even take the time to try and feed them....:rolleyes:

Seems to me your just here to start some crap about a thread that has long since died and because it has long since been locked down you post this pointless thread to re-open it.... clearly you have posted this with a point to getting members to do one thing and that is flame away....

Not to turn this into a flipper/reseller debate.....you show me a "reseller" that holds onto animals and won't sell them right away and I'll show you a pig flying.....Most of them don't even take the time to try and feed them....:rolleyes:

I don't think they are all that common.

Ever sell something you didn't produce? Didn't fit breeding plans anymore? I guess technically that counts as resell, but not the intent.

Not to turn this into a flipper/reseller debate.....you show me a "reseller" that holds onto animals and won't sell them right away and I'll show you a pig flying.....Most of them don't even take the time to try and feed them....:rolleyes:

At about any given point Bill you are welcome to come into my home and look at all the animals I have here for a month (or alot longer) before they get to the store. Or, take a walk thru the store and see cages that are marked NFS cuz I am not selling them yet. At what point do you want for Bruce or I to gain a bunch of weight and sprout some "flipping" wings for ya?:mad::mad::mad:

At about any given point Bill you are welcome to come into my home and look at all the animals I have here for a month (or alot longer) before they get to the store. Or, take a walk thru the store and see cages that are marked NFS cuz I am not selling them yet. At what point do you want for Bruce or I to gain a bunch of weight and sprout some "flipping" wings for ya?:mad::mad::mad:

Sara, you run a retail store, not the type of "reseller" I'm talking about. You are a store front that sells to the public, BIG difference. I'm talking about people sitting home with their computer buying snakes from other people and listing them right back on the internet and selling them before they even get them to inspect or try to feed. You run a store and have to have stock, sorry but that is a HUGE difference to me. When I refer to resellers/flippers I refer to people like Matt Oakley........:machinegun:

Sara, you run a retail store, not the type of "reseller" I'm talking about. You are a store front that sells to the public, BIG difference. I'm talking about people sitting home with their computer buying snakes from other people and listing them right back on the internet and selling them before they even get them to inspect or try to feed. You run a store and have to have stock, sorry but that is a HUGE difference to me. When I refer to resellers/flippers I refer to people like Matt Oakley........:machinegun:

In my mind reseller = storefront, or run that way with internet adds.

In my mind reseller = storefront, or run that way with internet adds.
Run that way and are are two completely different things.....:rolleyes:

Being this topic was a locked thread topic - the re-opening of it won't stand. Please don't start another or try to turn another thread into it... thanks.

You are all getting away from the anonymous poster who wanted to start shit with Kara over stuff that happened years ago since they were under the impression that we gave her a pass and also that we should all hate making money....:rolleyes: