http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn160/reptileradio/follicules.jpg

Copyright 2001 Dr. Mark Seward

http://www.drseward.com/New_Site/NWbpbreeding.htm

oooo, i could use that info !
ck

this is good info for sure

awesome chart!!!

Thanks Larry :yessir:

Nice chart.... Will come in handy this year :)

:rockon::rockon:

Thnks Larry!

Dude thats KILLER information for you BP guys

That is some beautiful info... that movie really is something else! There goes mark mandics website hits!... lol j/k!

I want a full size poster of that for the snake room wall.

is that video worth buying?

looking at that chart fertilzation doesnt happen until ovualtion..... is that right?

Move this chart to have ovulations occur more around March April and May and it would be perfect for what we see around here, otherwise I agree completely!

looking at that chart fertilzation doesnt happen until ovualtion..... is that right?

Ovulation is the process of fertilization :yes:

Move this chart to have ovulations occur more around March April and May and it would be perfect for what we see around here, otherwise I agree completely!


Ditto that! :yes:

Ovulation is the process of fertilization :yes:

when ovulation occurs, the mature ovum is made available for fertilization. it actually occurs right before fertilization. in pythons, we typically have a condition where viable sperm are basically waiting on standby for the ovum to present itself, so seemingly, from an observing human's standpoint, they are one and the same. in reality though, fertilization can only begin to occur in the moments subsequent to ovulation. two distinct events, nicely packaged by mother nature to occur chronologically close together in pythons.
ck

when ovulation occurs, the mature ovum is made available for fertilization. it actually occurs right before fertilization. in pythons, we typically have a condition where viable sperm are basically waiting on standby for the ovum to present itself, so seemingly, from an observing human's standpoint, they are one and the same. in reality though, fertilization can only begin to occur in the moments subsequent to ovulation. two distinct events, nicely packaged by mother nature to occur chronologically close together in pythons.
ck

That too :lmao: I'll let CK do the big typing! :cheers: I just wanted to use the easy road out with 6 words :lmao:

That too :lmao: I'll let CK do the big typing! :cheers: I just wanted to use the easy road out with 6 words :lmao:

you guys need to get separate handles...
so we can all know which one is the real wise ass !
ck

you guys need to get separate handles...
so we can all know which one is the real wise ass !
ck

You'll never know! :rolleyes: hint hint Justin!

Thanks for the info sir!!!

You'll never know! :rolleyes: hint hint Justin!

yeah...
as if nick, being a wise ass too, wouldn't type " hint hint justin ! "...
ck

looking at that chart fertilzation doesnt happen until ovualtion..... is that right?

Yes they are fertilized just before being coated with a calcium slime (I am sure there is a better word for that) during ovulation. During the next 2 months the calcium grows into the shell you see when they are laid.

I figure from where the female stores the sperm, that copulation has to be at least a week prior to ovulation. Or it is too late and only some of the follicles will be fertilized.

you guys need to get separate handles...
so we can all know which one is the real wise ass !
ck

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

If you look back at the chart larry posted, you'll see that the arrow marked ovulation/fertilization is pointing to the entire month of november. That is not intended to mean that both happen at the same time, although they often do occur near the same time.
Ovulation must occur first. The thing to keep in mind is that both the sperm and the egg have a definite life span without fertilization. I don't have the numbers right off the top of my head for ball pythons, but typically sperm live much longer than eggs. This is why the usual recomendation is to have breeding accomplished sometime before ovulation. That way, the sperm, which can live a while, will be waiting around for the eggs to be ovulated. If it were done the other way around, there is a good chance some or all of the eggs may die before the sperm get there.
Here is a topic someone should be checking into, especially you guys in the high end ball python morph market. Ovulation is hormonally controlled. There are blood tests that can be done that can accurately predict ovulation, and you'll be suprised how often it isn't the date you think it is. It's probably a little expensive and labor intensive, but if it means the difference in one or 2 multigene morphs a year, it'd be worth it.
One interesting note: If you care to look it up, there have been documented cases of sperm retention in pythons of up to 18 months. Sorry don't remember which species right off hand. Also this is believed to be the expanation for unexpected double clutching in colubrids.

If you look back at the chart larry posted, you'll see that the arrow marked ovulation/fertilization is pointing to the entire month of november. That is not intended to mean that both happen at the same time, although they often do occur near the same time.
Ovulation must occur first. The thing to keep in mind is that both the sperm and the egg have a definite life span without fertilization. I don't have the numbers right off the top of my head for ball pythons, but typically sperm live much longer than eggs. This is why the usual recomendation is to have breeding accomplished sometime before ovulation. That way, the sperm, which can live a while, will be waiting around for the eggs to be ovulated. If it were done the other way around, there is a good chance some or all of the eggs may die before the sperm get there.
Here is a topic someone should be checking into, especially you guys in the high end ball python morph market. Ovulation is hormonally controlled. There are blood tests that can be done that can accurately predict ovulation, and you'll be suprised how often it isn't the date you think it is. It's probably a little expensive and labor intensive, but if it means the difference in one or 2 multigene morphs a year, it'd be worth it.
One interesting note: If you care to look it up, there have been documented cases of sperm retention in pythons of up to 18 months. Sorry don't remember which species right off hand. Also this is believed to be the expanation for unexpected double clutching in colubrids.

shane...
you can call me a dummy on any given tuesday, but i'm thinkin' there's no way anything (except maybe the first follicle ovulated) is being fertilized after ovulation takes place if the sperm weren't already present. the sperm would have to somehow get around that first follicle, which goes wall-to-wall in the oviduct, in order for that to happen. maybe i'm wrong... maybe someone in a position to confirm can call me a dummy on wednesday this week...
ck

shane...
you can call me a dummy on any given tuesday, but i'm thinkin' there's no way anything (except maybe the first follicle ovulated) is being fertilized after ovulation takes place if the sperm weren't already present. the sperm would have to somehow get around that first follicle, which goes wall-to-wall in the oviduct, in order for that to happen. maybe i'm wrong... maybe someone in a position to confirm can call me a dummy on wednesday this week...
ck
I would have to agree with you on this point. I stop rotating the male in with a particular female when she gets to 28 mm follicle size. I figure the sperm takes too long to get to where it needs to be, if it's not there already there is no point.

I have also noticed that the females stop eating around 24mm so at that time I put the male in one more time and I stop trying to feed her until after she has her clutch.

Originally posted by constrictorkeeper: shane...
you can call me a dummy on any given tuesday, but i'm thinkin' there's no way anything (except maybe the first follicle ovulated) is being fertilized after ovulation takes place if the sperm weren't already present. the sperm would have to somehow get around that first follicle, which goes wall-to-wall in the oviduct, in order for that to happen. maybe i'm wrong... maybe someone in a position to confirm can call me a dummy on wednesday this week...
ck
ck, I wouldn't call you a dummy on any day of the week. I must be missing something about those day references. maybe I'm the dummy.
But think about what you are saying. If what you said were true and the first ovulated ovum took up 100% of the width of the oviduct so that no sperm could get around it, wouldn't that same first follicle as it moves down the oviduct just push any sperm that were already there out of the way so that none of the following ova would be fertilized? The truth is this oviduct is not a flaccid piece of tissue that is passively sitting there doing nothing. There are rythmic contractions all along the oviduct during ovulation that simultaneously move the ova along as well as allow sperm to reach the other ova.
You guys that use ultrasonography alot, if you have a good ultrasound machine, ought to be able to see this. If you are ultrasounding these girls at the time of ovulation, you should be able to see the contraction of the oviduct. It's pretty slow, but if you watch close, you should be able to see it.

Originally posted by BoasandBalls: I figure the sperm takes too long to get to where it needs to be, if it's not there already there is no point.
Fertilization takes place high up in the oviduct, actually much closer to the ovary than you might think. Actually sperm reach the site of fertilization within minutes to hours of copulation. Not days or weeks. There is a section of the oviduct that is called the seminal recepticle. Histologically a little different than the rest of the oviduct. Sperm is retained here until ovulation.

Sorry for 3 posts in a row, but I just went back and read ck's post in response to my original post. After rereading that and what I wrote I think I need to clarify. I am agreeing that your best shot at getting the most eggs fertilized is to have the sperm there waiting on those eggs to be fertilized. Period. No doubt about it. You guys are doing it the right way.
What I was trying to address is the idea that it is impossible for anything but the first egg to be fertilized if copulation happens after fertilization. It is entirely possible to fertilize every egg in an ovulation if copulation happens soon afterward. Chances arent nearly as good, but sperm absolutely does get by those eggs.

Sorry for 3 posts in a row, but I just went back and read ck's post in response to my original post. After rereading that and what I wrote I think I need to clarify. I am agreeing that your best shot at getting the most eggs fertilized is to have the sperm there waiting on those eggs to be fertilized. Period. No doubt about it. You guys are doing it the right way.
What I was trying to address is the idea that it is impossible for anything but the first egg to be fertilized if copulation happens after fertilization. It is entirely possible to fertilize every egg in an ovulation if copulation happens soon afterward. Chances arent nearly as good, but sperm absolutely does get by those eggs.

shane,
once the follicles are ovulated, which we all agree happens as one blessed, continuous event, the oviduct is stretched to envelope them wherever they end up along it's way. hence my wall-to-wall statement. it is my understanding that as the ovulated ovum pass through the seminal receptacle they are fertilized by the little wigglers standing by. sort of like a car passing through a car wash... with the ovum being the car, and the sperm being the suds. be that as it may, absent viable sperm already waiting there, it would seem that the distal-most egg would effectively block any potential suitors introduced once the ovulation is completed. i'm talking completed ovulation... not during the process, when it wouldn't be too far fetched that a single cell sperm could be squished between a passing ovum and the oviduct wall to come out on the other side once the ovum passed by... but... what are the chances your girl is receiving a fresh delivery of sperm during ovulation ?
once that distal-most ovum is all settled in for shelling, i don't think chris angel could get on the other side. besides the physical barrier presented by ovum-1, what girl is accepting a male post ov ?
ck

Originally posted by constrictorkeeper: shane,
once the follicles are ovulated, which we all agree happens as one blessed, continuous event, the oviduct is stretched to envelope them wherever they end up along it's way. hence my wall-to-wall statement. it is my understanding that as the ovulated ovum pass through the seminal receptacle they are fertilized by the little wigglers standing by. sort of like a car passing through a car wash... with the ovum being the car, and the sperm being the suds. be that as it may, absent viable sperm already waiting there, it would seem that the distal-most egg would effectively block any potential suitors introduced once the ovulation is completed. i'm talking completed ovulation... not during the process, when it wouldn't be too far fetched that a single cell sperm could be squished between a passing ovum and the oviduct wall to come out on the other side once the ovum passed by... but... what are the chances your girl is receiving a fresh delivery of sperm during ovulation ?
once that distal-most ovum is all settled in for shelling, i don't think chris angel could get on the other side. besides the physical barrier presented by ovum-1, what girl is accepting a male post ov ?
ck
ck, what you say has some merit to it, which is why the best way is to have the sperm waiting on the eggs. There are two very small flaws in your thinking though.
#1 at ovulation, which I also agree happens to multiple ova simultaneously, there is a large surge in a couple of hormones that cause that oviduct to start to contract in a rythmic manner. This is how the eggs get to where they are going. This contraction also redistributes any sperm that are in the seminal recepticle in both directions, more pointedly proximally, into the oviduct. In other words, the seminal recepticle is not the only place in the oviduct where fertilzation takes place.
#2 The settling in for shelling process you describe is incomplete without fertilization. Chris angel isn't necessary at that point. and that process takes days, where the amount of time for sperm to reach the proximal end of the oviduct takes minutes to hours from copulation.
I hope you realize that this is purely academic and I'm only doing this because you seem like you really want to know the details of how this works. At the end of the day though, breed those girls just like youve been doing it.

This is why the usual recomendation is to have breeding accomplished sometime before ovulation. That way, the sperm, which can live a while, will be waiting around for the eggs to be ovulated. If it were done the other way around, there is a good chance some or all of the eggs may die before the sperm get there.
has anyone accomplished fertilization of already ovulated ovum ? that, i'd like to hear about.


But think about what you are saying. If what you said were true and the first ovulated ovum took up 100% of the width of the oviduct so that no sperm could get around it, wouldn't that same first follicle as it moves down the oviduct just push any sperm that were already there out of the way so that none of the following ova would be fertilized?
no, it wouldn't. the ovulated ovum are being forced through the oviduct, basically running over any sperm that don't grab on for the ride. the "run over" single cell sperm are squished between the ovum and interior wall of the oviduct until the ovum passes by. they surely survive this treatment as they are only one cell wide, and would remain available there for each subsequent ovum in some number. i did imply no sperm could get around an egg the way you've suggested, on it's own wiggle power. let's face it, the ovulated ovum is many times the diameter of an un-stretched oviduct, but that doesn't mean the contractions of the mother couldn't squish the ovum past a bunch of single celled sperm. unless the force generated by the mom is involved, i highly doubt any sperm introduced after the completed ovulation could make it past that distal-most egg.


What I was trying to address is the idea that it is impossible for anything but the first egg to be fertilized if copulation happens after fertilization. It is entirely possible to fertilize every egg in an ovulation if copulation happens soon afterward. i'll assume you meant ovulation the first time you say fertilization here... if that's the case, we all want to hear more. has this been documented ? if so, how did they get the post-ov female to accept a male ? (and conversely, how did they get a male to even bother trying !? ) if you've got info that this has in fact happened, please share. we'd all love to be able to try this !

ck, what you say has some merit to it, which is why the best way is to have the sperm waiting on the eggs. There are two very small flaws in your thinking though.
#1 at ovulation, which I also agree happens to multiple ova simultaneously, there is a large surge in a couple of hormones that cause that oviduct to start to contract in a rythmic manner. This is how the eggs get to where they are going. This contraction also redistributes any sperm that are in the seminal recepticle in both directions, more pointedly proximally, into the oviduct. In other words, the seminal recepticle is not the only place in the oviduct where fertilzation takes place.
#2 The settling in for shelling process you describe is incomplete without fertilization. Chris angel isn't necessary at that point. and that process takes days, where the amount of time for sperm to reach the proximal end of the oviduct takes minutes to hours from copulation.
I hope you realize that this is purely academic and I'm only doing this because you seem like you really want to know the details of how this works. At the end of the day though, breed those girls just like youve been doing it.shane...
i don't need you to confirm the stuff that i think is true is in fact true. i need you to explain what you've put on the table. please address and clarify what i don't know, as indicated in your above posts and my requests for clarification.
ck

originally posted by constrictorkeeper: shane...
i don't need you to confirm the stuff that i think is true is in fact true. i need you to explain what you've put on the table. please address and clarify what i don't know, as indicated in your above posts and my requests for clarification.
ck
Ok. I think I can see where this is going. I think I have given you repeated explanations about how this could happen. You yourself admit with the contractions of the oviduct that the ova can "roll over" the sperm so there is room, but somehow the opposite cannot be true, the sperm can't get by the ova because there isn't room. At this point I think I will just admit that you know more about this than I do. Sorry I couldn't add anything to the conversation.

Ok. I think I can see where this is going. I think I have given you repeated explanations about how this could happen. You yourself admit with the contractions of the oviduct that the ova can "roll over" the sperm so there is room, but somehow the opposite cannot be true, the sperm can't get by the ova because there isn't room. At this point I think I will just admit that you know more about this than I do. Sorry I couldn't add anything to the conversation.

shane,
once ovulation is completed, there would appear to be no need for any additional contracting of the oviduct until the commencement of oviposition.
if mom's no longer forcing eggs past the waiting sperm, how do the new post-ov sperm get around that distal most huevo ? i'm trying to telegraph (and maybe i'm not doing that in a comprehensible manner) that the same condition (a forcefully contracting oviduct) is not existing post-ov, so "somehow the opposite cannot be true" is not really in the discussion. the post-ov mom's oviduct is now operating in shell-the-huevos mode.
if you have the time and interest, please see ross and marzec's reproductive husbandry of pythons and boas. pg 67 has an illustration depicting a section of oviduct with an ovum ensconced within.
it's a pretty telling photo.
ck

ck, I'm going to make this my last post on this subject. Not that I'm no longer interested, but I think it is becoming increasingly more difficult for us to make our points in this way. I would love to discuss the issue with you further. If you are interested please pm me or call me and we'll talk about it some more. When someone knows little about the subject, few words are enough. But it is obvious you are looking deeper than most. I commend you for that. We need to talk where we have more than a few words at a time for explanation. Also I'm not sure we are not confusing others unnecessarily. I've really enjoyed this, though.
To answer your question, copulation itself stimulates oviductal contraction. There has been considerable work done on this at Berkley. Male copulatory material has been shown to contain high levels of some of the reproductive hormones, particularly Prostaglandin F2alpha. The people at Berkley, and I'm sorry I don't remember the guy's name (I believe it may be Paul Licht but I may be wrong on that), have shown that this PF2a induces oviductal contraction and in some species can in fact induce ovulation. Obviously in this case copulation has to precede ovulation. The point is copulation in and of itself causes the contractions and so it definitely can happen after ovulation and "somehow the opposite can't be true is in the conversation. The pictures you mention about the ensconced egg, does the book say how long after ovulation this is? How much time do you have to breed her (if you were so inclined and you wont be because you already bred her) before that egg becomes ensconced?
What we should be talking about is that I am currently trying to find someone who can do some hormonal testing for you guys with the high end stuff to see if we can time things a little more precisely to increase fertility rates. That could be worth a lot of money to you. What we've been discussing is completely academic. I've currently got 2 leads I'm checking into. PM or call me if you think I still need straightening out. Great discussion, I'm a little suprised noone else has jumped in here.

What we should be talking about is that I am currently trying to find someone who can do some hormonal testing for you guys with the high end stuff to see if we can time things a little more precisely to increase fertility rates. That could be worth a lot of money to you. What we've been discussing is completely academic. I've currently got 2 leads I'm checking into. this sounds really cool, looking forward to hearing about it.
ck

I read that copulation stimulates oviductual contraction what i am wondering if there is any information that a copulation or a males presence actually stimulates that start of follicular development? Do we have any concrete scientific facts of what exactly triggers a female to start building follicles? Im very curious about this, so much information out there some think a female just does it, some think its the temperature change some think a copulation gets a female going. Any thoughts.

Todd

I read that copulation stimulates oviductual contraction what i am wondering if there is any information that a copulation or a males presence actually stimulates that start of follicular development? Do we have any concrete scientific facts of what exactly triggers a female to start building follicles? Im very curious about this, so much information out there some think a female just does it, some think its the temperature change some think a copulation gets a female going. Any thoughts.

Todd

I haven't seen any concrete data specifically on your question Todd. Like you mentioned there is some evidence that copulation stimulates oviductal contraction and even ovulation. I didn't go back and reread this thread, but CK and I talked about this quite a bit and I think both of us may have posted some links to some research. But as far as specifically stimulating follicular development, I haven't seen that. Anecdotal evidence is becoming more available as more and more people are ultrasounding their females though. If I can summarize what I hear most people saying is that an unpaired female seems to build follicles to a certain size, but without pairing, those follicles seem to regress. When they are paired, some do go on to build those follicles to a size appropriate for ovulation. Maybe some of the folks who do regularly ultrasound their females will chime in here.

What we should be talking about is that I am currently trying to find someone who can do some hormonal testing for you guys with the high end stuff to see if we can time things a little more precisely to increase fertility rates. That could be worth a lot of money to you. What we've been discussing is completely academic. I've currently got 2 leads I'm checking into. PM or call me if you think I still need straightening out. Great discussion, I'm a little suprised noone else has jumped in here.

this sounds really cool, looking forward to hearing about it.
ck

Since this has come back up and refreshed my memory, I did check into this and neither of the two labs who were working on this are doing it any more. I talked to the directors of the endocrinology labs at the University of Tennessee and the University of California (can't remember now which city, I think Davis) and I couldn't get either of them to even act interested in doing it again. Maybe if there were enough people willing to commit to doing it, the potential revenue could sway them, but I didn't have any luck. Sorry I forgot to update on it.

I haven't seen any concrete data specifically on your question Todd. Like you mentioned there is some evidence that copulation stimulates oviductal contraction and even ovulation. I didn't go back and reread this thread, but CK and I talked about this quite a bit and I think both of us may have posted some links to some research. But as far as specifically stimulating follicular development, I haven't seen that. Anecdotal evidence is becoming more available as more and more people are ultrasounding their females though. If I can summarize what I hear most people saying is that an unpaired female seems to build follicles to a certain size, but without pairing, those follicles seem to regress. When they are paired, some do go on to build those follicles to a size appropriate for ovulation. Maybe some of the folks who do regularly ultrasound their females will chime in here.

Great info once again Shane! Thank you very much. It might be one of those things that we will just never know for sure but have many good theories on!!

Todd

Great info once again Shane! Thank you very much. It might be one of those things that we will just never know for sure but have many good theories on!!

Todd

This one Todd, I think we will find the answer to. It may not be a nice, neat, clean study, but as popular as ultrasounds are becoming, I'd bet that enough people will begin to see the same things, that it'll be common knowledge before too many more years.

I don't have anything to contribute to the discussion but this is a great thread! I've been wondering about this exact topic. I know how leopard geckos and African fat tails work, but being new to breeding pythons, this was very educational. Thanks guys!

This is the first time i clicked this post and i was shocked to see that chart! LOL I've had that same chart posted on my wall since 2002! There is also a a correlation graph that came with that to match up the follicular development with the seasonal changes in Africa (natural environment) I'll scan it and post it if anyone is interested.

This is the first time i clicked this post and i was shocked to see that chart! LOL I've had that same chart posted on my wall since 2002! There is also a a correlation graph that came with that to match up the follicular development with the seasonal changes in Africa (natural environment) I'll scan it and post it if anyone is interested.

Do it...add it to the mix Tim. :yes:

Do it...add it to the mix Tim. :yes:

Ditto!

Ditto!

tritto...
ck

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x91/ScubaTimGTP/Random%20Crap/IMG_NEW.jpg

crap....I did the wrong one. one sec

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x91/ScubaTimGTP/Random%20Crap/IMG_0001_NEW.jpg

Very nice!!!! Thanks!!