Okay we all know the lines all remove some part of the yellow pigment, some better than others and some keep it out longer.

I produced Jolliff Axanthics this year because I really like the look of the snows with a faint pattern so I found some to work with and started getting that project off the ground but now I am thinking about adding it into some different stuff. My issue is the availability of the Jolliff line in general and of course RDR's comments on it maybe not being an axanthic but a hypoaxanthic (http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/collection/pythons/ball/jolliff_snow_ball_python.asp).

I know that was written back in the 2003ish but I haven't seen anything more out there being written up, it is possible everyone has been chasing the 'easy' co dom stuff so they have less time to concentrate on the 'harder' recessive genes but from what I have seen alot of people are still working with recessives and even more adding them into co dom combos. I know personally I am trying to stay about 50/50 with co dom/recessive animals so I have to imagine alot of others are in the same boat.

Does anyone know what lines are exactly compatible? I used to have links to some of it but I can't find them now for the life of me and the google searches are only proving partially successful.

Also has anyone heard of the hypo cross into the Jolliff line to see if that is compatible in anyway?

To many questions leading into this season and many, many crosses I want to try but I don't want to repeat things that have been dis-proven already with my limited animals so any light you can shine on this stuff is appreciated :cheers:

I don't have Axanthics so this isn't first hand knowledge but it has always been my understanding that VPI, TSK and Jolliff lines are incompatible. I believe NERD line is compatible with VPI. And then there are a few other not well known lines that I have no clue on with respect to compatibility with other established lines.

I haven't heard of anyone trying for a True Ghost with the Jolliff line.

P.S. It's probably just a typo but it's hypoxanthic without the "a".

Just to start, Axanthics are my favorite morph hands down. I mainly work with the Jolliff Line but I also have some VPI line animals. I have produced Jolliff line Axanthics the past two years.

I think that the reason you are not seeing a lot of Jolliff animals out there is because of the very first ones produced were not the prettiest. Then people start talking about VPI line is the best. You even have people who don’t have axanthics or have never seen one talking bad about the other lines. This turns people off to Jolliff and SK lines. But my opinion is that VPI just started out with better stock. The Jolliff line is a muddy and needs to be cleaned up through selective breeding. But since a lot of people talk bad about the Jolliff line few people are willing to work with it. I produced a Jolliff male last year that I would put up against any other Axanthic as far as the silver color and not browning out. Another factor to the down fall of the Axanthics is getting a good picture that represents the true color of the animals. I have tried to take good, true pictures of Axanthics. It is really hard and most of pictures add more brown. They end up looking like normals. This turns a lot of people away also.

I do not think the Jolliff line Axanthics are Hypoxanthic. I know Jolliff has sold animals that are possible het hypo. So he must have the hypo gene worked into the Axanthics.

The only lines that I have heard are compatible are NERD line and VPI line.
Trey

I'll be watchin' this thread :yes:. A Snow is something I've always wanted to work towards also. :cheers:

Sorry Jeff, I've got nothing you probably don't already know to add.

Trey, you and I may need to talk :D. I've got a big ol', 3 or 4k het jolliff I'd like to do something with and until now didn't know anyone working with Jolliffs.

i dont know much about the axanthics and the different lines because they arent really on my radar (exept the axa killerbee).

but to the hypoxanthic thing, i will say this:

i think jolliff axas are really true axas. rdr has his theorie because of the look of the snows- he expected white on white snakes.

BUT:

in other reptiles u havent white on white snakes ether- snow corns- yellow white,(dwarf) retics snows- yellow white (but they were ether lav snows or purple snows, so well see what comes out when jay hits the white snow).
boa snows arent white on white ether.

or better said: right now, i cant think of a really white on white snow. im sure there is one, but right now i cant remember one.

thats why i think his theorie is wrong- but who knows what he thinks right now about it- the text is (alomst on the day) 8 years old...


keivin had postet a theorie on the coral glow banana female issue half a year ago. now we know the theorie isnt right anymore and he knows it too (first hand). thats the thing with theories- they are just that...

P.S. It's probably just a typo but it's hypoxanthic without the "a".

I do now that I reread it....lol

It was early and I read it exactly how I typed it thinking he was talking about 2 genes not just the reduced yellow....I really got to stop trying to think in the mornings after late nights...:cheers:

Still a valid point with it not being refined yet plus the difference in other snows....I may still mess around and add it into some different things just to see what I can do with it.

I produced a Jolliff male last year that I would put up against any other Axanthic as far as the silver color and not browning out.
Trey

pics, or it didn't happen.
ck

http://fireballpythons.com/public/Axanthic/2009_Axanthic_Clutch.jpg
This is the only picture I could find. He is the one in the middle. They hadn't even shed yet in this picture.
Aaron Palmer owns the snake now. Let me see if I can get him to post up some recent pictures.
Trey

Aaron Palmer owns the snake now. Let me see if I can get him to post up some recent pictures.
Trey

He won't be posting anything here. He's banned from this site....

Yea. I just learned that. He is emailing me a few pics to put up.
Trey

Yea. I just learned that. He is emailing me a few pics to put up.
Trey

That works! :cheers:

http://fireballpythons.com/public/Axanthic/Aarons_Axanthic_1.jpg
http://fireballpythons.com/public/Axanthic/Aarons_Axanthic_2.jpg
Here are two pictures of him taken tonight.
The first picture is his true colors. The second you can still tell he is an axanthic but it has messed up the colors. This is an example of what I was talking about in my first post. These pictures have not been edited in any way. They came straight from the camera and were posted.
Trey

I haven't seen any snow's in person other than the one's I hatched out this season. They definately have a fair amount of yellow in them but the edging around the yellow seems almost like a silver metallic. And these were from Jolliff line axanthics. I do know that the Jolliff male I used has browned out pretty well but the baby axanthics from him are a nice silver/grey. I'll try and get a couple shots tomorrow of him and the axanthic & snow babies.

I was drooling over the snows you had at Tinley Bruce, they are the perfect example of what I want in a snow.....

My male is browned out also but the one girl I have left from the clutch this year is still holding her silver color...granted she might be 150 grams so I don't expect that to stay forever....

Trey how big is the one in the picture, ball park size?

Well next time "wipe the drool off your face" and talk to me. You know i'm a real hard person to deal with.:dunno:

750-800 Grams. He hatched out July 7, 2010.

Just to run something by you since we are on the subject of Axanthics.
The problem with axanthics is that they brown out over time. Would it be better to go for really light, bright or really dark hets? My theory is that since they brown out, you want to get as much of the brown out of the animal as possible so you would want to produce really high yellow, bright hets. I have been selectively breeding my male to really bright normals to produce some nice hets. Only time will tell if my theory is correct. What do you think?
Also Jolliff has his Tiger gene mixed in with his axanthics. The few tigers that I have produced, hets and visuals, make really nice looking axanthics. The male pictured above is a tiger.
Trey

750- 800g in 4 month???

is that normal??? thats about what my balls weight with almost a year (10 month)- and i feed em every 5 days two items...

That is a typo. Sorry it should be 2009.
Trey

That is a typo. Sorry it should be 2009.
Trey

ah ok- that makes sense

I think mx has got a point with the "better stock" idea.

"There are 4 known lines of Axanthic:

VPI
NERD
Jolliff
The Snake Keeper

VPI & NERD's are the only ones that are compatible with each other.
Jolliff & Snake Keeper are not compatible with any other line besides themselves."

Originally found here: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?132567-SK-axanthic&p=1454580

Even if Ralph was correct with his Hypoxanthic theory, you could still line breed the light & brights until it looked axanthic. Consequently, the same could be done with the dark & dulls to reverse engineer a Hyperxanthic.

Ultimately, it would be wiser to start with the characteristics you want to have! if you want the presence of xanthafore go jolliff or TSK, if not stick to VPI's and bright NERD's. NONE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER... BUY WHAT YOU LIKE!

Part of the disconnect, in understanding genetic compatibility, stems from the "ball python industry's" tendency to make trade names instead of naming a snake by its genetic properties.

Take for instance Corn Snakes: when you hear the names of corn's you can visualize the snake. When you hear Angel of Death, or 8 ball, or specter... no immediate understanding of the creature comes to mind (without previous experience).

I am aware not all breeders are geneticists, but we can all put forth effort in this regard! Good Luck and sorry for ranting on your post!

:hijacked:

I have snake keeper line axanthics (I really just stumbled in to the axanthic world since the pastel male I purchased happened to also be het for snake keeper line axanthic)
and I have not seen a joliff line visual in person so I can't definitivley say which is better. However I was always told that joliff was the most likely to brown out with age. But I also know that the hets I got from Greg Graziani produce the nicest axanthics I have ever seen (including the VPI's I've seen).

I also have heard that vpi and nerd where compatable and joliff and snake keeper where not. However I haven't run across anyone who actually has done a vpi x snake keeper or Nerd snake keeper cross.

Here are a few pics.
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p268/kpl519/2010%20clutches/zclutch2females.jpg
Hatchling produced this year
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p268/kpl519/Helen472g.jpg
09 female a few months ago at 800g
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p268/kpl519/Jacki792g.jpg
08 pastel axanthic

I thought jollif mixed his with others...and said he didn't know how pure his line still was...Phil would know because all that stuff lived at his house for years...

While I don't work with Jollif line animals, I do have some thoughts and comments about the Axanthic gene in general.

First of all, I don't think the Jollif line is hypoxanthic, and that would lead me to believe that there were still xome xanthrophores present, and there would be some yellow in the snake. That yellow theoretically should not make brown. With that said, I think that there is some form of eurythriphores in Ball Pythons, as we have seen a plethora of mutations now that seem to have some form of red pigment. I think that slight presence of red pigment may be what Balls use to make browns. I find that my Axanthic animals (VPI line) do not brown as much as I prefer to say that they "purple" up as they age. This is somewhat where I get my red theory from.

Now, as Trey stated, I think plenty of work can be done to refine any of the Axanthic lines to make them lighter. This may include adding other genes as well. I have heard of many people thinking of adding Fire to the Axanthics to make a cleaner adult Axanthic, and I think that may be a very valid thouht. I have two males (original) project animals that I have produced Axanthics with. One is my original VPI Axanthic, and the other is a DH VPI Axanthic Hypo. The DH produces Axanthics that are not as silver as babies, while the Axanthic male alkways produces very bright babies. That leads me to believe that the gene can be successfully refined.

My last comment, revolves around something that Trey finally brought up. That is the presence of the Tiger gene in Jollif line Axanthics. Michael originally seperated the Tiger gene from his original Axanthic stock. So, the gene is "linke" in with his Axanthic animals, depending on how far back you can trace your parentage. With that said, when you see the Tiger Axanthics, like the one Trey posted a pic of, they are very nice looking in the pattern department, and having a lack of alien eyes, makes them look alot brighter. I for one love the reduction tendency in the Jollif line animals, and I think if you could get that Tiger patterning into other genes, it would look awesome. Imagine a Tiger Snow, or a Tiger Jollif Axanthic Spider. I think that is definitely potential in the Jollif Axanthics, because of the reduction tendency alone. I personally fell for the VPI line being nicer back in 2004 when I got my original male, and got VPI line. I am now so heavily invested in ther VPI line that I never got the Jollif line. Also, at this point, with so many animals, I don't want the potential of getting the lines crossed, and potentially selling some animals with questionable genetics.

So, in conclusion, I believe that both lines are great and have potential, but in my opinion, it is best to pick a line you want to work with, and focus on that line, and keep the other lines out of your collection.

I hope that helped at all,

of course u can make em brighter threw selektiv breeding. u can do really crazy things with selektiv breeding. for example: coral kahl albino boas. they are just line bred albino. or lipstick line albinos/ sunglow boas.

in ballpythons- look at the "whitesmoke" (patriarch to the coral glows) and now look at coral glows today.

look at the salmon boa patriarch- he doesnt even look like salmons we know anymore.


i see absolutly no reason why that shouldnt work with axanthics. u just need to be patient and start with great animals. the better the start animals are the less work u have to do.

but the question for me is: who will do it?

i dont know exactly for what axanthics run in the us, but here theyre not so expensiv (about 600euros- 800$).

if ure a small breeder u probably try to build a collection and probably dont start a new selectiv axa line. a big breeder probably wont too, because it wouldnt pay out (financial) and he has to pay a lot of money every month for his collection.

so- who does it???:dunno:

Here is a VPI Snowball. I am bias maybe but I am not interested in any Axanthics but VPI's. This animal in person is stunning!

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx172/zachmillertime/Snow%20Ball/DSC_4211.jpg
http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx172/zachmillertime/Snow%20Ball/HPIM1634_2.jpg

Just a word on my jolliff het. I found a pic I saved of an offspring of his and it don't look half bad. I'm sure it browned out with age, but hey.


http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/QuigsPlace/axanthicbaby.jpg

I think mx has got a point with the "better stock" idea.

"There are 4 known lines of Axanthic:

VPI
NERD
Jolliff
The Snake Keeper

VPI & NERD's are the only ones that are compatible with each other.
Jolliff & Snake Keeper are not compatible with any other line besides themselves."



I could be mistaken because I am going off of memory here but I swear on one of the RR shows with either TSK or VPI the guest said that those two lines had never been crossed...

Also, there is a fifth Axanthic type/line out there, the Black Axanthic


While I don't work with Jollif line animals, I do have some thoughts and comments about the Axanthic gene in general.

First of all, I don't think the Jollif line is hypoxanthic, and that would lead me to believe that there were still xome xanthrophores present, and there would be some yellow in the snake. That yellow theoretically should not make brown. With that said, I think that there is some form of eurythriphores in Ball Pythons, as we have seen a plethora of mutations now that seem to have some form of red pigment. I think that slight presence of red pigment may be what Balls use to make browns. I find that my Axanthic animals (VPI line) do not brown as much as I prefer to say that they "purple" up as they age. This is somewhat where I get my red theory from.

Tim,

I respect you greatly but I have to tell you that there are no erythrophores in ball pythons, trust me on this. We know this to be true based on one simple mutation, the T- albino. If there were erythrophores in balls then a T- ball would not be a white and yellow snake but instead would be a white, yellow, orange and red snake.

However, there are ways to get "red" even with a lack of erythrophores. The melanin synthesis pathway actually has two endpoints for two different types of melanin: eumelanin and pheomelanin (and these different melanin types can be further processed but that is more info than we need here.) The prior of these is responsible for dark browns and blacks. The latter generates reds and, strangely enough, some yellows. So when we see "red" in a ball we are seeing something that is tweaking the melanin pathways such that either eumelanin is getting toned down, pheomelanin is getting toned up or a combination of the two events is occurring.


Knowing all of this will help when it comes to selectively breeding Axanthics because ideally you would want to select for an animal that has low levels of the "brown" eumelanins over all with high levels of the "black" eumelanins in the dark areas and low levels of the "black" eumelanins in the "aliens" but that also have high levels of the "red" pheomelanins and low levels of the "yellow" pheomelanins.

So have fun all you Axanthic breeders :)

Well here is my representative of the VPI Axanthic gene. He's a 2008 Male and has yet to brown out but then again I keep my males on the small side when they reach the 800 to 900gm range.

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/45309/2017818640101507605S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2017818640101507605yTsNkm)

Here he is with a VPI het female (the het female's colors are UNREAL)....
http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/229/2035983640101507605S500x500Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2035983640101507605zlYVEE)

Here he is with my hand pick Yellow Belly female (Taken outside for true lighting)...
http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/8663/2849820910101507605S425x425Q85.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2849820910101507605SKLYLg)

I could be mistaken because I am going off of memory here but I swear on one of the RR shows with either TSK or VPI the guest said that those two lines had never been crossed...

Also, there is a fifth Axanthic type/line out there, the Black Axanthic




Tim,

I respect you greatly but I have to tell you that there are no erythrophores in ball pythons, trust me on this. We know this to be true based on one simple mutation, the T- albino. If there were erythrophores in balls then a T- ball would not be a white and yellow snake but instead would be a white, yellow, orange and red snake.

However, there are ways to get "red" even with a lack of erythrophores. The melanin synthesis pathway actually has two endpoints for two different types of melanin: eumelanin and pheomelanin (and these different melanin types can be further processed but that is more info than we need here.) The prior of these is responsible for dark browns and blacks. The latter generates reds and, strangely enough, some yellows. So when we see "red" in a ball we are seeing something that is tweaking the melanin pathways such that either eumelanin is getting toned down, pheomelanin is getting toned up or a combination of the two events is occurring.


Knowing all of this will help when it comes to selectively breeding Axanthics because ideally you would want to select for an animal that has low levels of the "brown" eumelanins over all with high levels of the "black" eumelanins in the dark areas and low levels of the "black" eumelanins in the "aliens" but that also have high levels of the "red" pheomelanins and low levels of the "yellow" pheomelanins.

So have fun all you Axanthic breeders :)




the best proof for that are the axanthics themself. in other reptiles we have anerythristic animals (corns, boas, hogs, retics etc etc). theyre inolved in the snow projects. some of these species have different types of anery- some that are in fact axanthic too (blizzard maker in corns and probably soon boas). so its acually really a fact. in balls we have no erythin. thats the reason why there no anery ballpythons aswell.

I could be mistaken because I am going off of memory here but I swear on one of the RR shows with either TSK or VPI the guest said that those two lines had never been crossed...

The story that I've heard is that someone once bred a het VPI to a het TSK, and no axanthics were produced. And based on this one pairing (where a homozygous animal could have easily been missed), the two lines are believed to be genetically incompatible. As single gene axanthics continue to drop in price, I'm sure someone else will eventually cross two homozygous animals from the two lines.

It sure would be nice if VPI and TSK axanthics were compatible. There really aren't that many axanthic fans out there in the first place, and having multiple different lines further restricts the marketability of the morph.

Tim,

I respect you greatly but I have to tell you that there are no erythrophores in ball pythons, trust me on this. We know this to be true based on one simple mutation, the T- albino. If there were erythrophores in balls then a T- ball would not be a white and yellow snake but instead would be a white, yellow, orange and red snake.

However, there are ways to get "red" even with a lack of erythrophores. The melanin synthesis pathway actually has two endpoints for two different types of melanin: eumelanin and pheomelanin (and these different melanin types can be further processed but that is more info than we need here.) The prior of these is responsible for dark browns and blacks. The latter generates reds and, strangely enough, some yellows. So when we see "red" in a ball we are seeing something that is tweaking the melanin pathways such that either eumelanin is getting toned down, pheomelanin is getting toned up or a combination of the two events is occurring.


Knowing all of this will help when it comes to selectively breeding Axanthics because ideally you would want to select for an animal that has low levels of the "brown" eumelanins over all with high levels of the "black" eumelanins in the dark areas and low levels of the "black" eumelanins in the "aliens" but that also have high levels of the "red" pheomelanins and low levels of the "yellow" pheomelanins.

So have fun all you Axanthic breeders :)

Thanks for the lesson. I actually just read about eumelanin and pheomelanin last week. I was unware of that, but it makes complete sence in my head. My theory stated earlier comes from watching numerous VPI Axanthics grow up, and realizing that they seem to get more red than they do brown. Hence my thought on the eurythrophores.

However, what I didn't know was that the two types of melanin can either be tweaked up or tweaked down, independently. I find this interesteing, because the Axanthic Enchis that I produced this year have mroe yellow in them than I have ever seen in an Axanthic. My bet now would be that one of the melanin typoes is tweaked in the Enchi gene (giving them the brighter yellows and oranges), and it carries over when crossed into the Axanthic.

Thanks again for the info, it will definitely help me in my selective breeding and theories of what is going on especially within crosses.

we have an axanthic out of africa hope to produce hets and prove if he is vpi or not by breeding him to a het will post a pic when my post count is higher.

axanthic from africa. any thoughts on which of the existing lines he might be.
http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z419/UKExotics/AxanthicfromAfrica_new.jpg

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z419/UKExotics/AxanthicfromAfrica_new.jpg

Great info in this thread. I'm getting a pair beginning of november and I can't wait... They are VPIs and I will definitely be posting progress on their colors.

As others have stated, I have heard that none of the lines are compatible except NERD and VPI, but also that there have not been documented attempts, so who knows. It's not something that most people are willing to "waste" time on.

I wanted to chime in just because I'm a big fan of the Axanthic gene.

I haven't heard of anyone doing a visual VPI axanthic to a visual TSK axanthic but would love to know the result. I'm curious if there really are 3 incompatible lines of axanthic whereas any pastel from the wild or albino from the wild (and even toffee now) can be compatible. It seems strange IMO to have 3 100% incompatible lines.

I think just like pastels there are great examples of every "line" and it's all about selective breeding and breeding for the "look" you want.

I like the silver look myself so have tried to keep that in perspective when buying and/or holding back animals.

Female on eggs
http://jdconstriction.com/images/08skaxan03f01_11eggs.JPG

Another female ("soolie")
Adult SK Axanthic Female "Soolie" - YouTube