So this guy is local to me and just about as shady as they come. He has been representing himself as a breeder, although he has only produced a handful of balls and everything else is flipped. He has no real quarantine and is Smarmy. He breeds rodents (which he trades for reptiles he can flip), and is also listing his rodent business on KS (claims he has allergies to them). NOT exactly in it for the love.

I can't figure out how to take screenshots, so here is a link to some of his cages that he has been selling on Craigslist for weeks now (classy).

http://fresno.craigslist.org/pet/938386327.html

http://fresno.craigslist.org/pet/938382754.html

He is also selling a bunch of large females, etc on kingsnake. The story behind that is that he bought a large collection last year from a local guy, bred them as best he could (clumsily), and is now trying to offload most of them. He also was doing imports with another guy here in town. All said, I think this guy has about 2 years experience with herps, but he is big on kissing butt and getting people to offer quotes about how great he is.

It PISSES me off. 'Kay, I'm done now.

~Kat

Also him.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123011

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122857

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123203

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123204

It goes on and on and on.....


~Kat

Kat, I have been waiting to pounce on this guy.. Thanks for posting Your op on him..:yessir:

Dang Kat, good one. I'd been seeing his ads on Fauna for a little while but I didn't really put them together in my head. I like the way that in just about every ad it's "blah blah was produced by blah blah" classic flipper scum and his stuff on CL was DISGUSTING! How many snakes were in that one freakin tub he had pulled out that was too small for ONE?

Quite frankly I've held off because he's local to me (and it's a smaaaall community) so there is history, and also because, like I said, he is good at lurking in the shadows and pretending to be reputable. So this is my, just be aware, thread.


~Kat

Feel free to peruse his youtube channel, if you need some tips.

http://www.youtube.com/phoerner


~Kat

I've seen the name before and ad's on fauna and KS but always got a bad vibe about him.

ive seen his ads also, and i almost bought a pair of female pastels at a good price untill i found out he was a flipper and didnt quaruntine his animals.

Good to know I have wondered about him myself.

Yeah, he's out here in Cali. Some time ago, I grabbed a screen shot of a brag photo he posted from inside his rat breeding operation. I can't stomach the unethical treatment of feeder rodents; it is a pet peeve of mine. That's why I grabbed the photo and saved it. That is 1/2" mesh he's keeping those rats on. Half inch mesh is unethical in my opinion because it is too sharp (wire is too thin) on their feet. I've also seen his ads depicting the filthy conditions of his cages. Lets hope this economic washout takes him with it.

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/picture.php?albumid=59&pictureid=378

Yuck!

That is disgusting

That is disgusting

Yuck!

Exactly my same thoughts when I saw the picture.

Nice.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=65&de=652063

"I only got them to eat up sick mice".




~Kat

Nice.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=65&de=652063

"I only got them to eat up sick mice".




~Kat

What a loser :shootout: and that's putting it VERY MILDLY only because the rules said to keep it pg-13 if possible.

Interesting. I looked up his ad on KS for the business. So it is inside a 48' trailer. I'm thinking allergies are not the real reason he's getting rid of the business. I suspect he may be selling because the county told him to get rid of the trailer. It is against county reg's to use a trailer on wheels like that. No can do.

Think I figured out the screen save thing.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj217/janeothejungle/Herpscum/philadcorns.jpg

and pics from the abovementioned CL ads

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj217/janeothejungle/Herpscum/P1010027Large.jpg

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj217/janeothejungle/Herpscum/P1010026Large.jpg


~Kat

Interesting. I looked up his ad on KS for the business. So it is inside a 48' trailer. I'm thinking allergies are not the real reason he's getting rid of the business. I suspect he may be selling because the county told him to get rid of the trailer. It is against county reg's to use a trailer on wheels like that. No can do.

You mean a trailer like this one??

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=643811

Just to note: The guy in the pics of the trailer is NOT phil.


~Kat

That is just sick. I may not like rats, but I'd never treat them like that. -Shudders.- Poor guys. And those snakes? I feel so bad for them all.

You mean a trailer like this one??

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=643811


Yes that's it. Thing is, the trailer is still on axles. That is a Bozo no-no far as the county is concerned.

Here is a link to the KS photo of the trailer with what appears to be a newly built access ramp. Built while suffering allergies? Pffftttt.

http://rodents4u.com/rr/P1010001a%20(Medium).JPG

Don't all good breeders 'rehome' their stock on craigslist?

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj217/janeothejungle/classicphil.jpg




~Kat

He claims on kingsnake he is getting out of the rodent business. THANK GOD if it's true!

Gross...

I have been watching him for a while.

Had a friend ask me about his reputation, and I couldn't say much to it.

Glad I didn't.

Nasty...

Just sick -- I've seen his ads in the local freebie papers, craigslist, etc. just gross.

OMG Will only eat sick mice!? What the hell? Who feed ANYTHING a sick ANYTHING!?

Well, there is something else about him that gets up my nose.

He claims on kingsnake he is getting out of the rodent business. THANK GOD if it's true!


In that KS business for sale ad, he claims he has a one ton air conditioning unit installed on that trailer. A piddly one ton unit will not sufficiently cool that space given it contains hundreds of rats and mice. Those rats and mice put out gobs of heat. What he's running there is a hell hole on wheels, during summer time.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=22&de=653857

Lets hope this means he has lost enough money to be getting out completely. I find it ironic he is selling 'bators since he only produced like 2 clutches, ever.


Thank you santa,
Kat

Think I figured out the screen save thing.

and pics from the abovementioned CL ads

~Kat

wow kat, good spy.
filth central there.
if someone was proposin' to off animals kept in that filth, why would they show the actual filth...i've seen cleaner zoos in europe !
great work katster,
ck

Its funny. Just now I was looking through the caging area on KS classifieds and seen his cages for sale. He showed how he built his rack and which ones he was selling. Looking through those pics I had my face with that gross look. I then remembered this thread here and thought, everyones probably talking about his dirty reptile room. And I was right.

His whole operation looks pretty gross. How can anyone live or keep animals with such a dirty dingy looking house.
The rats squeezed in those cages did it for me. I had to react!

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=22&de=653857

Lets hope this means he has lost enough money to be getting out completely. I find it ironic he is selling 'bators since he only produced like 2 clutches, ever.


Thank you santa,
Kat

Think of the amount of mites alone in those racks...

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=22&de=653857

Lets hope this means he has lost enough money to be getting out completely. I find it ironic he is selling 'bators since he only produced like 2 clutches, ever.


Thank you santa,
Kat

I concur, it appears this guy is on his way out. What an interesting ad, given some of what he offers for sale doesn't appear to be even moveable as-is. For instance, the last rack he shows. (Yeah the $800 boondoggle made with the crooked 2 x 2 spacers that he shows being assembled in the series of photos just above the incubator freezers) He's got that sucker's back bolted to the wall then built after. That fact aside, it is obvious this particular rack is going to go all kinds of cattywampus when they try to move it.. He may want to edit his ad to include "Some re-assembly required". :shrug:

He is giving himself a good guy post on fauna..
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=659170#post659170

This should get interesting.


~Kat

This should get interesting.


~Kat

I thought the original ad said surplus mice?

Nope. He just reposted it today, still saying he got them to eat up sick mice. yum. Part of me thinks this is a very odd move if he was planning on getting out of the biz...


~Kat

Nope. He just reposted it today, still saying he got them to eat up sick mice. yum. Part of me thinks this is a very odd move if he was planning on getting out of the biz...


~Kat

Your post #14 here.
The ad says surplus mice? Just making sure I'm reading it right lol..

HA HA HA. He must have caught on and reposted the ad saying 'surplus' instead of 'sick'. I suddenly am loving that screenshot save.

~Kat

Your post #14 here.
The ad says surplus mice? Just making sure I'm reading it right lol..

Post 17 brother!!!

He changed the ad she linked.

HA HA HA. He must have caught on and reposted the ad saying 'surplus' instead of 'sick'. I suddenly am loving that screenshot save.

~Kat

Post 17 brother!!!

He changed the ad she linked.

Friggin AWESOME!! Nice work Kat!!

He is giving himself a good guy post on fauna..
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=659170#post659170

That's funny, what a frickin' moron!

This is just getting ridiculous. He's trying so hard to peddle his shit. Makes me sick to see animals in the conditions he keeps them in and I can't even imagine how many rodents he loses in that damn trailer he's got for them.

Since he's already got a thread -- thought I'd add picture stealing to the list of issues:

http://jetpythons.com/PhilH2.jpg

http://jetpythons.com/PhilH1.jpg

Not sure why if he was "replaced by a snow son" -- he'd need to steal a picture of someone elses snow" cough cough -- fake het -- cough cough

I will not defend him in anyway for what he has posted or what he has for sale but I have met him, been to his breeding "facility" and his house. The following is based on my two or three deals I have done with him, maybe a year ago.

He is not a crook (in my expereince), he is straight forward and does wha the says he will do. I sold him about 30 adult normal ball python females. I was going to be in Lemoore (town 30 minutes south of Fresno) and told him I would bring him the girls. We met at his "facility" (I quote this because it two refrigerated semi trailers, one for rats the other for snakes). Upon pulling up I was very aprehensive about going through with the deal but since I was there I decided to meet him and take a look.

First we walked into his rodent trailer and I was surprised. It was very clean, didn't smell and all of his animals were in great health. I couldn't find anything wrong with his setup, the animals or the care. All of his racks were built buy him using concrete tubs and van ness cat litter tubs. The tubs were clean, the racks were clean, no dust in the whole trailer (no more than normal and it was obvious he wipes everything down) and everyone had food and water. Nothing like I expected.

The next trailer had all of his reptiles. Again, the same as the rodents. Everything was clean and well taken care of. No mites, no uncleaned cages, fresh water and in general I was satisfied to go ahead with the deal.

I then asked about his rodent production and about some frozen rodents. He took me to his house where his freezers were and again, impressed. Everthing he had was CLEAN, no bedding, no sweat, nothing but perfectly frozen rodents. His sizes were twice that of any rodents supplier out there. A medium was a medium, not a weanling as you get with other major suppliers.

I decided to take trade for all the girls since I was going to be moving and needing a large stash of frozen rodents. I took three four foot chest freezers full of rats (all sizes), including the freezers and some racks he had. The deal was fair and to be honest I probably got the better end of the deal.

He did admit to buying rodents from other vendors when his supply fell short and I did see him turn some of the animals I traded him but who can blame the guy. He was recently laid off of a job he had held for many years and couldn't find anything else. He was paying his bills with the rat and snake money and was moving into an apartment to help save money until he found another good job. I can't knock a guy who is simply trying to live because hard times have fallen.

Now I have seen other good men turn to shit because life throws a curve ball and they are desperately trying to keep things together. The desperation sets in and you do what you feel you have to in order to keep food on the table and your family under a roof. Unless you have lived through these times you have NO CLUE what that is like.

Again, I am not defending him or what he has or is said he has done but from my couple of transactions he is a stand up guy with a clean "facility". I wouldn't hesitate to buy or trade with him again.

I will not defend him in anyway

I don't now the man and have never done business with him so I appreciate your input. I'll tell you this, your post sure as hell looks like a defense to me..


Now I have seen other good men turn to shit because life throws a curve ball and they are desperately trying to keep things together. The desperation sets in and you do what you feel you have to in order to keep food on the table and your family under a roof. Unless you have lived through these times you have NO CLUE what that is like.

We usually hear this same argument from people that share similar pactices, that are attempting to justify the fine art. Not saying you are, just sayin..

The truth is this argument holds little weight with me. In times of despair the best place to go, is to work. Whatever happened to a good ol' fashion J.O.B. I'd be working my ass off delivering pizzas, hangin drywall, painting, roofing whatever it took. I damn sure wouldn't be out buying and flipping snakes.


Again, I am not defending him or what he has or is said he has done but from my couple of transactions he is a stand up guy with a clean "facility". I wouldn't hesitate to buy or trade with him again.

Again, if this isn't defending someone, then what is?

:yessir:

Now I have seen other good men turn to shit because life throws a curve ball and they are desperately trying to keep things together. The desperation sets in and you do what you feel you have to in order to keep food on the table and your family under a roof. Unless you have lived through these times you have NO CLUE what that is like.



I don't see how stealing pictures and using those after you have been asked to stop doing it is some how okay or justifies the means of making money in a deceitful way. That's just not right period....

I don't see how stealing pictures and using those after you have been asked to stop doing it is some how okay or justifies the means of making money in a deceitful way. That's just not right period....

Scott didn't you read his post? He said twice that he isn't defending the guy..

Scott didn't you read his post? He said twice that he isn't defending the guy..

I didn't miss it,... he was just re-assuring everyone he isn't defending the guy.... :rolleyes:

All I was doing was relating MY EXPERIENCE with him and not defending what was being posted. Why is that hard to understand and why does my clarification, twice, now three times, of not defending him catch your eyes? Would this be considered an "attack", like those you accused me of doing on other members when I showed up? Or is this more friendly conversation? I am sure you will justify it.

I didn't say what he is doing is right and by no means do I condone becoming unethical because the shit has hit the fan. If he is able to provide for his family by means of flipping snakes and selling rats then more power to him, he's keeping his family fed and under roof. Ever been so poor you were picking up every bit of loose change you found on the ground and ate pancakes and spaghetti for months because it was cheap and would alleviate the hunger pains? You do whatever it takes; it's the rawest form of survival especially when you have kids to take care of. Does that mean being unethical is OK? No and again, I don't condone throwing the ethics aside. Obviously I should have elaborated on this.

I knew there would be a couple of people who would say exactly what you are insinuating Larry. I am fine with it. I know how I keep my collection so do several others who have been to my place. I am comfortable with it and would put it up against anyone’s. After reading the whole post, I can easily see why some of the comments were made. The melamine cage looks absolutely disgusting.

As far as the KS post, I don't agree with it at all. He should have had permission first and then posted the disclaimer.

Funny, I said I wasn't defending him TWICE because I felt the people on this forum needed clarification so they wouldn't try and turn it against me with insinuations and passive comments trying to make things look different than what I posted. Seems the saying "It all starts from the top" and "Shit rolls down hill" continues to ring true.

I am sure I am now guilty of some unwritten forum rule. Slap my wrists.

The truth is this argument holds little weight with me. In times of despair the best place to go, is to work. Whatever happened to a good ol' fashion J.O.B. I'd be working my ass off delivering pizzas, hangin drywall, painting, roofing whatever it took. I damn sure wouldn't be out buying and flipping snakes.

Flipping anything would be smarter than being a drywaller.

PS....Please ban Rudd for speaking his mind. I don't like him.

Flipping anything would be smarter than being a drywaller.

PS....Please ban Rudd for speaking his mind. I don't like him.

I hate him too! His ***k is three times as big as mine!

I will not defend him in anyway for what he has posted or what he has for sale

I didn't say what he is doing is right

I don't condone throwing the ethics aside.

I said I wasn't defending him TWICE

I wouldn't hesitate to buy or trade with him again

In one breath you don't condone it, didn't say it was right and you definitely aren't defending it but in the next say you wouldn't hesitate to do business with him again.

Am I missing something here?

Flipping anything would be smarter than being a drywaller.

PS....Please ban Rudd for speaking his mind. I don't like him.

I don't like you so how about I ban you along with Rudd?

In one breath you don't condone it, didn't say it was right and you definitely aren't defending it but in the next say you wouldn't hesitate to do business with him again.

Am I missing something here?

That's how I read it too...

Rudd - The smart ass comments aren't helping...:yessir:

So you wouldn't hesitate to do business with the guy even though his conditions and animals are filthy?

So you wouldn't hesitate to do business with the guy even though his conditions and animals are filthy?

I think he was speaking on the conditions when he was there and that was all I got from it........

I don't like you so how about I ban you along with Rudd?

You cant do that for two reasons! 1. It's not nice 2. Think of the fun it will be to argue politics with him!

I hate him too! His ***k is three times as big as mine!

Wood, why do you have a red square on this post?????? You know that is just a myth......:lol:

Hey BT...since when?

I thought we were tight.

I think he was speaking on the conditions when he was there and that was all I got from it........


You cant do that for two reasons! 1. It's not nice 2. Think of the fun it will be to argue politics with him!

Well hell - That just ruins it Phil because everybody knows I'm a nice guy...Politics are beginning to bore me - They all suck - Liberals just suck more...

Hey BT...since when?

I thought we were tight.

Of course we're tight - Remember - I'm a nice guy (that can't stand Liberals)...:devil:

Come on BT you have a reputation to uphold! You are the Rebel!!!!!! :)

Come on BT you have a reputation to uphold! You are the Rebel!!!!!! :)

LOL...Yeah right - Thanks for the laugh...

Anytime...... :)

I don't now the man and have never done business with him so I appreciate your input. I'll tell you this, your post sure as hell looks like a defense to me..

We usually hear this same argument from people that share similar pactices, that are attempting to justify the fine art. Not saying you are, just sayin..

The truth is this argument holds little weight with me. In times of despair the best place to go, is to work. Whatever happened to a good ol' fashion J.O.B. I'd be working my ass off delivering pizzas, hangin drywall, painting, roofing whatever it took. I damn sure wouldn't be out buying and flipping snakes.

Sounds to me like Rudd is just relaying his experience from meeting with the guy in person and to me that holds a helluva lot more weight then someone else's hearsay.


Again, if this isn't defending someone, then what is?
:yessir:

That's like saying 'It's a sunny day today' is a defense of the weather when arguing with a group of people who are complaining that it's always raining out. It's a simple statement gleaned from personal observation.


In one breath you don't condone it, didn't say it was right and you definitely aren't defending it but in the next say you wouldn't hesitate to do business with him again.
Am I missing something here?

Stealing pictures is stupid, and it's not right, and if the guy claimed that the snake in the picture was his (which I don't think he has done) it would be even more dishonest. But it's also not an indication of the health and quality of the guys snakes. Frankly if I were to limit my snake purchases to intelligent people, I'd have a whole lot fewer snakes then I do now. Hell, I even got a snake from Rudd. :devil:

Would I do business with someone who was a picture thief? Well, I'd certainly be inclined to decline, but I'd also want more info before I made a final decision. Rudd on the other hand was doing business with him BEFORE he was a notorious picture thief so he already has that first hand experience behind him. So, while I'd want more information, Rudd already HAS more information so it makes perfect sense when he says that he would not hesitate to do business with him again.. (the 'AGAIN' being the important part)

Sounds to me like Rudd is just relaying his experience from meeting with the guy in person and to me that holds a helluva lot more weight then someone else's hearsay.




That's like saying 'It's a sunny day today' is a defense of the weather when arguing with a group of people who are complaining that it's always raining out. It's a simple statement gleaned from personal observation.




Stealing pictures is stupid, and it's not right, and if the guy claimed that the snake in the picture was his (which I don't think he has done) it would be even more dishonest. But it's also not an indication of the health and quality of the guys snakes. Frankly if I were to limit my snake purchases to intelligent people, I'd have a whole lot fewer snakes then I do now. Hell, I even got a snake from Rudd. :devil:

Would I do business with someone who was a picture thief? Well, I'd certainly be inclined to decline, but I'd also want more info before I made a final decision. Rudd on the other hand was doing business with him BEFORE he was a notorious picture thief so he already has that first hand experience behind him. So, while I'd want more information, Rudd already HAS more information so it makes perfect sense when he says that he would not hesitate to do business with him again.. (the 'AGAIN' being the important part)

Seems to me like you have a big ol chip on your shoulder when it comes to Larry more then anything in that post.... comes across as a little bitter from what I'm reading?

Seems to me like you have a big ol chip on your shoulder when it comes to Larry more then anything in that post.... comes across as a little bitter from what I'm reading?

I did not get that? Guess I will read it again and see........

Seems to me like you have a big ol chip on your shoulder when it comes to Larry more then anything in that post.... comes across as a little bitter from what I'm reading?

He seems to have issues with the way we do just about everything here. Should be glad it's not my forum cuz his ass would have been grass a LONG time and a lot of snarky comments ago :ass:

In one breath you don't condone it, didn't say it was right and you definitely aren't defending it but in the next say you wouldn't hesitate to do business with him again.

Am I missing something here?


Apparently.


I am basing EVERYTHING off of MY EXPERIENCE. Why you want to reference what the others posted to establish holes in MY POINT OF VIEW is completely inappropriate and misleading.

We have seen a lot of people fall from grace in this industry over the past few years -- people that otherwise were in good standing. I don't know Phil H or his previous reputation. I have seen the local ads and the pictures of the feeders and cages and stuff in just disgusting condition -- perhaps Rudds experiences were prior to this perhaps he cleaned up for Rudd -- IDK but he hasn't exactly hidden the disgusting conditions his animals are kept in. Being down on your luck doesn't excuse that - it certainly doesn't mean that you should be bringing more animals into that filth and flipping them out into the general public - it doesn't excuse using someone else's pictures to sell your animals without their permission. I'm still trying to figure out why if he had snowballs he was borrowing someone elses instead of using his own. Wouldn't be the first time someone down on their luck started selling fake hets and disappeared -- so caution might not be a bad idea.

Seems to me like you have a big ol chip on your shoulder when it comes to Larry more then anything in that post.... comes across as a little bitter from what I'm reading?

Really? And here I was thinking that it was Larry that had the big ol chip on his shoulder against Rudd. I guess I'll have to reread it again too.

He seems to have issues with the way we do just about everything here. Should be glad it's not my forum cuz his ass would have been grass a LONG time and a lot of snarky comments ago :ass:

Golly, if you ever start your own forum you'll have to send me a PM so I can make sure I'm the first one to sign up. You can call it the haters club or something cool like that.

Golly, if you ever start your own forum you'll have to send me a PM so I can make sure I'm the first one to sign up. You can call it the haters club or something cool like that.

Honestly man, I'm not looking to get into anything personal with you. You just seem to take any opportunity you can to dig at Larry and BT and if I were them I would not put up with that shit.

It's ok you don't have to worry, I won't be starting a forum anytime soon. Besides, I was under the impression that you had already taken the "haters club" title :devil: If I was starting one can I have your permission to use that name? PLEASE?

Honestly man, I'm not looking to get into anything personal with you.


HA, could of fooled me... LOL

Frankly if I were to limit my snake purchases to intelligent people, I'd have a whole lot fewer snakes then I do now. Hell, I even got a snake from Rudd. :devil:



So, what you are saying is it would probably be the only snake in your collection. Thanks buddy.

That dont say much for me I guess Rudd, he has never got one from me.... :(

Is Phil Hoerner the one with all the Chihuahuas? It might be another Hoerner I'm thinking of.

It's another Phil you are thinking about and he is gay, however, Phil Hoerner is strait, I met his wife.

Was she hot?

Was she hot?


Don't beat this thread up anymore than it already is...:hijacked:

I'll do my best to start a new thread every time I go on a tangent but expect a lot of new threads.

I'll do my best to start a new thread every time I go on a tangent but expect a lot of new threads.

Start as many as you see fit, just please post them in the correct sections..

10-4 :yessir:

Is Phil Hoerner the one with all the Chihuahuas? It might be another Hoerner I'm thinking of.

It's another Phil you are thinking about and he is gay, however, Phil Hoerner is strait, I met his wife.

This is the last time I am going to say this! THEY ARE MY WIFES DOGS!!!!! :lol:

This is the last time I am going to say this! THEY ARE MY WIFES DOGS!!!!! :lol:

I don't care who you are, that's funny!


GIT-R-DONE!

Nice job wrecking this thread fellas....:yessir: