Hypothetically speaking if you were to breed a LA/Pied, which Ralphie calls a Dreamsicle, to a super phantom what might be the result?

Are the mutations even combatible? I have no clue. Just curious really.

Good question and I don't have a clue! Another post I will learn from!

You would get all Phantoms double het for dream.

what does phantoms or dreams look like?

what does phantoms or dreams look like?

Check out RDR's site. There are pics there.

You would get all Phantoms double het for dream.

Noah you always come through with the tech stuff. You're hardcore, bro.

Thank you :yessir:

Soooo lemme go a step further. If these little buggers were then bred would that mean you could get super phantoms, pieds, LAs and dreams?

Could you get a phantom pied?

Good question and I don't have a clue! Another post I will learn from!

Yeah I'm pulling up a seat for this one as well...V speaking greek to me and I even now a bit about BP'S Morphs (lol) Good question V

Yeah I'm pulling up a seat for this one as well...V speaking greek to me and I even now a bit about BP'S Morphs (lol) Good question V

Me? Dude im an itty bitty mite on the ass of the ball python world.

I just really like the super phantoms, phantoms and dreams. Just not sure about the genetics if you throw them all together like a goulash.

As Noah mentioned RDR site is a great resource for some of the more esoteric morphs.

Noah you always come through with the tech stuff. You're hardcore, bro.

Thank you :yessir:

Soooo lemme go a step further. If these little buggers were then bred would that mean you could get super phantoms, pieds, LAs and dreams?

Could you get a phantom pied?

I think you could any combo of all those. Including Super Phantom Pieds or Super Phantom Dreams. Your most welcome.

I think you could any combo of all those. Including Super Phantom Pieds or Super Phantom Dreams. Your most welcome.

Super phantom dreams. Wow. Cant even imagine what that might look like. Crazy stuff.

Super phantom dreams. Wow. Cant even imagine what that might look like. Crazy stuff.

Yea there are almost endless possibilities with morphs which is part of what keeps me excited about ball pythons.

Me? Dude im an itty bitty mite on the ass of the ball python world.

I just really like the super phantoms, phantoms and dreams. Just not sure about the genetics if you throw them all together like a goulash.

As Noah mentioned RDR site is a great resource for some of the more esoteric morphs.

I'm a basic's kind of guy....spiders,albino's,bee's,pieds,mojo's

I like the phantoms as well I was just clueless as to what you were asking genetic wise there :)

I'll have to check that site out again Thanks Noah =)

No worries guys. To try to explain it here...the Phantom is a co dom(but consider it het for the Super form) so breed 2 together and you get Super Phantoms. The Pied and LA are both simple recessive. So if you bred a LA Pied aka Dreamsicle, to a normal you would get all double het for Dream. They look normal but carry the gene for both LA and Pied. When you breed a "super" form to whatever all the babies are whatever the "het" form is. So if you bred a Super Phantom to a Dream you get all Phantoms. Those Phantoms are also double het for Dream because they get those genes from the Dream parent. Sorry if that sounds retarded or confusing. :lol:

No worries guys. To try to explain it here...the Phantom is a co dom(but consider it het for the Super form) so breed 2 together and you get Super Phantoms. The Pied and LA are both simple recessive. So if you bred a LA Pied aka Dreamsicle, to a normal you would get all double het for Dream. They look normal but carry the gene for both LA and Pied. When you breed a "super" form to whatever all the babies are whatever the "het" form is. So if you bred a Super Phantom to a Dream you get all Phantoms. Those Phantoms are also double het for Dream because they get those genes from the Dream parent. Sorry if that sounds retarded or confusing. :lol:

No no thats quite clear. I follow that. Good stuff :yessir:

No no thats quite clear. I follow that. Good stuff :yessir:

Ok good.:cheers:

Wow........my mind is spinning from all of that! Sounds like it would produce some amazing animals!

I dont post other peoples pics but here is a link to the pics of the Super Phantom as a hatchling and the Dream as a hatchling.
http://ralphdavisreptiles.com/common/pop_window.asp?image=project_images/05_ball_hatched/05_clutch_91_hatched_4.jpg

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/common/pop_window.asp?image=project_images/05_ball_hatched/05_clutch_93_hatched_5.jpg

Some super phantom pieds or dreams would be sweet. I wonder if ralph will be attempting to make some combo super phantoms any time soon. The Phantom is a project I would love to get in on, but it's just WAY too crazy expensive. I'd give my left nut for one of his karmas (Lesser x phantom lucy).

Some super phantom pieds or dreams would be sweet. I wonder if ralph will be attempting to make some combo super phantoms any time soon. The Phantom is a project I would love to get in on, but it's just WAY too crazy expensive. I'd give my left nut for one of his karmas (Lesser x phantom lucy).

Well he first produced Supers in 05 so he has some that are big enough im sure. It will be interesting to see what comes from that. I would give my left nut for very few things but one of them would be a Super Phantom Goblin. That has to be one of the sickest combos ever made.

I dont post other peoples pics but here is a link to the pics of the Super Phantom as a hatchling and the Dream as a hatchling.
http://ralphdavisreptiles.com/common/pop_window.asp?image=project_images/05_ball_hatched/05_clutch_91_hatched_4.jpg

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/common/pop_window.asp?image=project_images/05_ball_hatched/05_clutch_93_hatched_5.jpg

the first one is awesome, id love to have it but the 2nd one looks more like an albino than anything to me.

the first one is awesome, id love to have it but the 2nd one looks more like an albino than anything to me.

It is an albino. Lavender albino pied. I think they're sweet. I'd love to see a LA clown, too.. That would be sweet.

the first one is awesome, id love to have it but the 2nd one looks more like an albino than anything to me.

Compare a normal albino pic next to that thing and you will see the difference.

Here is another one. Even next to its LA sib you can see the distinct difference in color and pattern.
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/common/pop_window.asp?image=project_images/05_ball_hatched/05_clutch_93_hatched_6.jpg

I dont post other peoples pics but here is a link to the pics of the Super Phantom as a hatchling and the Dream as a hatchling.
http://ralphdavisreptiles.com/common/pop_window.asp?image=project_images/05_ball_hatched/05_clutch_91_hatched_4.jpg

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/common/pop_window.asp?image=project_images/05_ball_hatched/05_clutch_93_hatched_5.jpg

That second link is just amazing.

That second link is just amazing.

They are both really crazy.

I cant even say for sure which I like better. They are so different.

I remember the first time I saw the video of the dream. I was just stunned by it. Really wild stuff.

Bet you could take some serious photos of that bad boy, eh?

I would love to get my camera ahold of that one... you just dont know.

It would be almost as nice as shooting the Naja ashei with out glass between us.... almost. That was a rush.

V... on a seperate note... how are you with Chams.. I know your into the lizards?

Chams really arent my thing. I have never kept a single one. I only have a rudimentary knowledge from reading about them. I have kept mainly varanids, agamids, skinks, geckos, iguanids and a few others.

Noah, how would that be double het for dream? Wouldn't it be just het for dream. I'm no genetics guy, but I don't get the double part. You know more about these bp morphs than me. I'm in developmental bio, I never liked genetics.

Lemme try this. Noah correct me if Im wrong. And hit me with a ruler. Its the only way ill learn...

They would be double het for dream since the dream morph is two recessive traits. Lavender albino and pied.

When the LA/Pied was bred to the super phatom, the babies would be hets for both LA and pied. Thus, double hets.

So if you bred them together 1/16 would be a dream. It would receive both the albino and the pied gene.

Im not even taking into account the phantom craziness. Hes just along for the ride.

Is that close, Noah?

Noah, how would that be double het for dream? Wouldn't it be just het for dream. I'm no genetics guy, but I don't get the double part. You know more about these bp morphs than me. I'm in developmental bio, I never liked genetics.

Your saying the same thing just a different way. It would be double het because "Dream is a double homozygous animal.

V, that looks correct to me buddy. :cheers:

Your saying the same thing just a different way. It would be double het because "Dream is a double homozygous animal.

V, that looks correct to me buddy. :cheers:

:wamma::wamma::wamma:

Woo hoo. Im getting this here ball python stuff by cracky.

This is why I am confused. maybe it is just because I have been reading too many stupid papers but...

dream = LA/Pied which is a combination of two simple recessives phenotypically expressing themselves concurrently.

so

het dream = het LA + het Pied

super phantom X Dream yields phantoms het dream. since phantom is co-dom and i believe the super to be dom.

is this true?

Hey Noah,

thanks for the info. I am just getting back into bps. I got bored with bp years ago and sold out. That was a long time ago when albino was the only morph. Now with all these morphs I have a new vigor for these animals again. I have been away from bps for so long that I didn't even know neodesia (sp?) plastics went out of business. I had all bush herp enclosures and they have been long gone. I gotta lot of catching up to do!

This is why I am confused. maybe it is just because I have been reading too many stupid papers but...

dream = LA/Pied which is a combination of two simple recessives phenotypically expressing themselves concurrently.

so

het dream = het LA + het Pied

super phantom X Dream yields phantoms het dream. since phantom is co-dom and i believe the super to be dom.

is this true?

Yes thats true. I see your point. Same end result and meaning just different ways of saying it. I guess it would be less confusing to say double het Lavender Albino and Pied. I think with all the confusing names people come up with for morphs they create in the end its just less confusing to really spell it out. On RDRs site he actually calls them both Double het Dreamsicle and Double het Lavender Albino X Pied.

On RDRs site he actually calls them both Double het Dreamsicle and Double het Lavender Albino X Pied.

Yes, but he also pronounces luecistic as LEW-SIS-TIK in his videos, so he may not be the best source on info that is technical in nature. Really, I don't see that it really matters either way whether you call them double het or just het dream. People will understand what you mean. I have seen all sorts of people refer to animals as being het snow or double het snow, or hypo het sunglow or double het sunglow or just het sunglow. I don't know which is technically right, but as long as the meaning is conveyed I don't think it matters too much.

I dont post other peoples pics but here is a link to the pics of the Super Phantom as a hatchling and the Dream as a hatchling.
http://ralphdavisreptiles.com/common/pop_window.asp?image=project_images/05_ball_hatched/05_clutch_91_hatched_4.jpg

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/common/pop_window.asp?image=project_images/05_ball_hatched/05_clutch_93_hatched_5.jpg

OHHHHH MYYY GOD! I want BOTH of them! They are simpley GORGEOUS! :D

OHHHHH MYYY GOD! I want BOTH of them! They are simpley GORGEOUS! :D

Ill refinance the house.

:D

V... you may want to hang on to her... or I'll snatch her up :lol:

Ill refinance the house.

:D

i know a guy...
ck

Everytime I see this thread title I hear "The only dumb question is the one not asked" in my head......

thats only cause I havent asked a whole lot of questions yet... I have some dumb ones... I know.

Yes, but he also pronounces luecistic as LEW-SIS-TIK in his videos, so he may not be the best source on info that is technical in nature. Really, I don't see that it really matters either way whether you call them double het or just het dream. People will understand what you mean. I have seen all sorts of people refer to animals as being het snow or double het snow, or hypo het sunglow or double het sunglow or just het sunglow. I don't know which is technically right, but as long as the meaning is conveyed I don't think it matters too much.

See the one that always bugs me is if the animal is an albino het anery some people call it het snow....drives my insane because it is homo amel already....the little things...lol

See the one that always bugs me is if the animal is an albino het anery some people call it het snow....drives my insane because it is homo amel already....the little things...lol

That's why I think as long as the proper meaning is conveyed, it doesn't matter what you call it. An albino het snow and het snow would not be considered the same in my book, but whatever.. I guess people will call them what they want and if people get confused, that's their problem.

An Albino het Snow and a het Snow are not the same thing. A het Snow is a normal looking animal that is both het for Albino and Axanthic. An Albino het Snow is an Albino that is het Axanthic. I think thats why people just say double het Snow like i was saying before. It all can be confusing unless the person knows what they are talking about. I think saying "double het Snow" is sort of the accepted term even if it doesnt make sense to some people or its not 100% correct terminology.

There are a lot of terms people use incorrectly in this business/hobby. Like "sperm plugs", 99% of the people use it incorrectly but you just got to roll with it sometimes or it will make you crazy.:eek:

I would like to respectfully disagree with your statement that an Albino that is heterozygous for Antheristic is not a het Snow. It is a het snow as much it is an Albino het Antheristic.

That being said it's the same as saying a Hypo (Salmon) Boa het Albino is the same as saying they are double het Sunglows.

If you breed one of the Albinos het Anery to another Albino het Anery you WILL get Snows, Albinos 66% het for Anery, and Anerys 100% het for Albino or Anerys het Snow.

An Albino het Anery is just as much het Snow as an Anery het Albino.

It's just two ways of saying the same thing.

As far as the Phantom DH Dreams go, I think they would produce a Dream with a little more faded out pattern, as well as produce Pieds with Phantom coloration in place of the standard Pied pattern, and just faded out Albinos. Either way I think they would be cool looking morphs but I don't think the Lavender Albino Super Phantom would look much different than a LA, just a little more faded. Kind of like Albino Pastels are just faded out Albinos. Just my opinion.

I would like to respectfully disagree with your statement that an Albino that is heterozygous for Antheristic is not a het Snow. It is a het snow as much it is an Albino het Antheristic.

An Albino het Anery is just as much het Snow as an Anery het Albino.

It's just two ways of saying the same thing.


It is the combo of the two in the homo form that make it a snow, so if you had a normal het amel and anery then I could see calling it a het snow. The homo form is being implied as one of the het traits in that combo is what drives me nuts...

When people start throwing out there double het this or that when all in all they are talking about a simple well known 2 recessive gene trait makes me think they are trying to hard wrap that package up in some overly fancy wrapping paper with ribbons and bows....

6 of one and half a dozen of another....all I know is if people can't properly describe it to me when I ask probing questions then no sale for them....lol

I think you will be hard pressed to find any of the large breeders out there that would say that an Albino het Anery isn't an Albino het Snow or vise versa. I think anyone who is in this business knows that you can't have a Snow with out both genes, it's just a way of letting people know that they have the ability to produce something a lot cooler than just an Albino or an Anery. If you tell me that you have an Albino het Anery all that tells me as a "newbie" is that I can produce Albinos and Anerys from breeding two of these animals together. If I'm new that wouldn't tell me that I could and would produce Snows, that would sure make buying that pair of snakes a hell of a lot more appealing to me if I knew I could produce three kinds of snakes from breeding the pair instead of just two kinds.

Snow is one of the oldest 2 morph combos around, I can't even remember how long they have been around in corns they have become so common....most newbies I have dealt with view a snow as an albino anyway with no idea on the genetic side of things until you explain it to them.

I don't know about the big breeders using it, haven't looked specifically for ages, but I never see an albino het blizzard.

Like I said the little things about them being technical about representing that animal....if you say albino het snow and you get a pair and end up breeding them down the line you will get albinos, anery's and snows like you said but to me it is not properly representing that animal to a 'newbie'.

Me? Dude im an itty bitty mite on the ass of the ball python world.



SOMEBODY BREAK OUT THE POV!!!!! :lol:

Personally I'm brain dead wen it comes to all the genetics of these creatures but I love readin' the breakdowns of them all :cheers:

Quig

Basically at this point we are talking semantics. We're saying the same thing just coming at it from different angles.