But what about the Breeders that sell to the flippers to Flip? Makes your ponder whom you are buying from and what larger breeders do with there "extra's".:devil:

But what about the Breeders that sell to the flippers to Flip? Makes your ponder whom you are buying from and what larger breeders do with there "extra's".:devil:

I'm sure alot of them do, and alot of the "Big Breeders" flip as well. It's a problem, but the BLBC is here to try to educate those that don't know better. :yessir:

luciddream...Im glad we are to educate but if its not good for small breeders then its not acceptable for larger breeders as well right..Who can crash a market faster someone with 50 snakes or someone with a thousand snakes?

I'm sure alot of them do, and alot of the "Big Breeders" flip as well. It's a problem, but the BLBC is here to try to educate those that don't know better. :yessir:

Good post! Thats what we are all about here... we all know we cant stop ALL of it but a little peer pressure sure as hell cant hurt!!! :yessir:

I agree 110%

Good post! Thats what we are all about here... we all know we cant stop ALL of it but a little peer pressure sure as hell cant hurt!!! :yessir:

Those that sell to them are just as bad -- but I guess it's better than freezing the excess stock they don't want to deal with.

luciddream...Im glad we are to educate but if its not good for small breeders then its not acceptable for larger breeders as well right..Who can crash a market faster someone with 50 snakes or someone with a thousand snakes?

I don't think it's acceptable for the big breeders to do it, either. I didn't mean for it to sound like I did. I won't buy from those "Big Breeders" that flip or sell to flippers, either. I don't know if we can convince them to be more responsible with who they sell to, but we can sure as hell try.

It just seams that many projects are on a downward spiral and it seams to speed up every year faster.....I guess theres a fine line between hobby and business...I trhink that once a hobbiest becomes educated on the market then the purchases from the flippers will cease.

It just seams that many projects are on a downward spiral and it seams to speed up every year faster.....I guess theres a fine line between hobby and business...I trhink that once a hobbiest becomes educated on the market then the purchases from the flippers will cease.
Which is why we need to get more info out on the net for newbies to see. The more they see that these scumbags are potential time bombs waiting to go off, the better off the industry will be....

It just seams that many projects are on a downward spiral and it seams to speed up every year faster.....I guess theres a fine line between hobby and business...I trhink that once a hobbiest becomes educated on the market then the purchases from the flippers will cease.

I agree with you to a point. The line between market and hobbyist is extremely blurred. By that I mean you see people in the same sentence refer to the hobby as a market. Do I think it should be that way? Hell no. I think too much emphasis has been put on thinking of these incredible animals as nothing more than a commodity to be bought sold and traded. I think the true Bush Leaguers understand that and for the most part we're here because we love the animals and the many different paint jobs.

Sorry to answer the implied question I think if we stop treating the keeping and caring for ball pythons (or any herp for that matter) as simply a market decision and if everyone out there was truly in it for the animals instead of the dollar signs flippers will no longer have a reason to exist. But do I think that will ever happen? Not a chance.

I have more to comment on this but I will wait until after I get to hear what all USARK has to say tonight because if they are successful in making it easier to export some of the big breeders along with the smaller ones will have another market they can reach easier. This in turn will not only help the 'saturated' market place as I have heard it called but it will also take things out of the flippers hands I hope.:cheers:

I have more to comment on this but I will wait until after I get to hear what all USARK has to say tonight because if they are successful in making it easier to export some of the big breeders along with the smaller ones will have another market they can reach easier. This in turn will not only help the 'saturated' market place as I have heard it called but it will also take things out of the flippers hands I hope.:cheers:
I agree. Hopefully it will slow the flippers down by moving the excess overseas. I would LOVE to see a lot of these flippers have to actually breed something....

I have more to comment on this but I will wait until after I get to hear what all USARK has to say tonight because if they are successful in making it easier to export some of the big breeders along with the smaller ones will have another market they can reach easier. This in turn will not only help the 'saturated' market place as I have heard it called but it will also take things out of the flippers hands I hope.:cheers:

If it's what Dan eluded to when he was on you would have to have a closed collection in order to qualify -- most of us hobbiest are still building which would put us out of the running. We will see tho.

I don't know Jeff, according to one of the guys on the show recently (I think it was recently) they were talking about makeing it easier for breeders with closed collections, meaning absolutely nothing new in. No trades or purchases. If I heard that wrong someone please correct me.

Yeah Dan mentioned it getting streamlined for closed collections....

Something needs to be done since they are right we can't keep up with the other countries with our hands tied....

We'll wait to see with fingers crossed....:cheers:

A closed collection requirement would just about exclude everyone!

What about the big breeders that sell there stock through other breeders ? Are they flipping? If so aren't they all doing that?

I believe I heard on Reptile radio a closed collection means no imports. No it was snakebytes

guys
i've got lots of respect for most of us here on this forum.
i understand the dislike of flippers. i don't appreciate the whole idea of the true flipper's mode of operation.
i also believe that there will always be petshop level animals produced.
which, of course, takes the burden off the wild pops.
when i breed a pair of hets, i'm gonna produce some possies, and some homos.
as possies are worth what normals sell for, i'm not gonna be able to move normals by any of the regular means available to the herp community. both because of the prohibitive shipping vs. the price for the animal, and because the herp community that exists on the forums, that shops at shows, and that buys and sells through the classifieds, by and large are not looking for normal anything.
this means i've got to get these animals into a pet shop, where they'll have a chance at selling for retail, and help maintain some sort of price stability.
to do this, as i am not a wholesaler. i need to engage a wholesaler. i used to cruise around long island, selling two rosies here, four rosies there, three kenyans somewhere else. those were pre-internet days. mom and pops have closed, big box petshops ain't buyin' ck's surplus normals.
to quote big V, (who quotes whinny the poo all the time ! ) "what to do, what to do" ????
tell me what to do that will cure all the ills of the world, or help me find a way to stop producing all these normals ( yes, i'm already trying to convert my hets to homos, of course, when i do that, i'll be selling my het breeders! )
don't tell me not to breed, don't tell me to keep everything i produce, don't tell me to freeze my surplus animals. then tell me how someone cares more about my animals than me, tell me how every animal that i produce that makes it to the cash register is gonna die a firey death, tell me that you didn't start off with the best animals you could afford at the time, and that you didn't kill your share because you soared to the apex of the learning curve, tell me you never bought any animals ever from a pet shop. many of us weren't blessed with the resources we have now to locate animals when we started our obsession. many of us actually got our first herps from a petshop, and that first herp came from a wholesaler, with rare exception.
now, as we are all further along than we were in the scenarios i've recollected here, we've developed an elite understanding of the innermost machinations of this hobby. we now realize things can generally be better for the animals of our collective obsession when deals are made between producer and end user. this is all great. as someone who actually worked for two years in a pet shop when most ( not all of course, old farts rock ! ) of you were still in diapers, i can really appreciate being able to buy from the guy who produced the animal. it's totally bleepin' awesome.
now, i'm gettin' the sensation that y'all are fixin' to lynch, crucify, tar and feather the next guy who ever sells an animal to anyone they know won't be the end user. let me know if that's the plan, cause if it is, life's too short for me to spend my days peddling pet shop animals one at a time, and i know that some of my offspring will end up going to a wholesaler every year. life is also too short for me to defend selling some of my animals to a wholesaler every year.
ck

I believe I heard on Reptile radio a closed collection means no imports. No it was snakebytes

Dan said something about being able to skip some of the waiting in the process of exporting, not importing by having a closed collection.

I agree. Hopefully it will slow the flippers down by moving the excess overseas. I would LOVE to see a lot of these flippers have to actually breed something....

all that means bro is that the flipping will happen in a foreign country, different accent, same meaning.
ck

all that means bro is that the flipping will happen in a foreign country, different accent, same meaning.
ck

You are correct ck.

You are correct ck.

aw nors...
you're only sayin' that 'cause it's true !
ck

Jeff your right . I 'm bad, It was Dan Sutherland on R.R. He has a closed facility and it takes 6 months to get paper work through. He loses sales to Canada because customers don't have to wait as long.

A closed collection requirement would just about exclude everyone!

It's really not possible, even realistic while pet stores and sellers of imports make a pretty good killing every year, not as much as in the last few years, but it's still a profit.... I'd like to see it stopped.

And that's all it is really.... they are not even considered animals or even treated like animals by some of these people (If you've seen the crates they are packed/stuffed into you'll know what I mean). We produce enough normals now to the point we even have sad discussions on culling them (just because they are normals), so why not put some value back into normals that are already produced here instead of paying some other country that imo treats them no better?

CK, while I would prefer to sell my animals to the "end user" everytime, of course, this isn't always an option for everyone. I think that there is a big difference between some of the wholesalers that care about the animals and it's care and the flippers like JnJ and Big Daddy's. We're talking about quarantine, making sure the animal is healthy and feeding, etc before going out for sale. Not having a goal of never needing to clean a tub because the animals shouldn't be in them long enough for it to need to be cleaned.

Luckily, I have been able to sell all my offspring I didn't want to keep at the local shows or to the 2 local exotics stores I trust with my animals. I haven't had a need to wholesale any of my offspring. The day may come when I eventually produce more normal retics through my codom breedings than I can easily sell without needing a wholesaler, and if that day should arrive, I will certainly be picky about who I wholesale the animals to. I would prefer to limit my breeding of the animals that will produce most of the "unwanted" offspring, though, than be forced to sell them to someone who has no interest in their health or wellbeing. There's a guy that flips lots of animals at the local shows here that pretty much lived out of his truck and keeps the animals in the truck. I've seen him tossing dead turtles in the trash while getting them out to set up at the show. I'd much rather not breed them than sell to someone like that.

CK, while I would prefer to sell my animals to the "end user" everytime, of course, this isn't always an option for everyone. I think that there is a big difference between some of the wholesalers that care about the animals and it's care and the flippers like JnJ and Big Daddy's. We're talking about quarantine, making sure the animal is healthy and feeding, etc before going out for sale. Not having a goal of never needing to clean a tub because the animals shouldn't be in them long enough for it to need to be cleaned.

Luckily, I have been able to sell all my offspring I didn't want to keep at the local shows or to the 2 local exotics stores I trust with my animals. I haven't had a need to wholesale any of my offspring. The day may come when I eventually produce more normal retics through my codom breedings than I can easily sell without needing a wholesaler, and if that day should arrive, I will certainly be picky about who I wholesale the animals to. I would prefer to limit my breeding of the animals that will produce most of the "unwanted" offspring, though, than be forced to sell them to someone who has no interest in their health or wellbeing. There's a guy that flips lots of animals at the local shows here that pretty much lived out of his truck and keeps the animals in the truck. I've seen him tossing dead turtles in the trash while getting them out to set up at the show. I'd much rather not breed them than sell to someone like that.

copy that bro...
ck

Exactly, be selective in who you wholesale your animals to, just as you are selective in who you buy your animals from.

CK, while I would prefer to sell my animals to the "end user" everytime, of course, this isn't always an option for everyone. I think that there is a big difference between some of the wholesalers that care about the animals and it's care and the flippers like JnJ and Big Daddy's. We're talking about quarantine, making sure the animal is healthy and feeding, etc before going out for sale. Not having a goal of never needing to clean a tub because the animals shouldn't be in them long enough for it to need to be cleaned.

Luckily, I have been able to sell all my offspring I didn't want to keep at the local shows or to the 2 local exotics stores I trust with my animals. I haven't had a need to wholesale any of my offspring. The day may come when I eventually produce more normal retics through my codom breedings than I can easily sell without needing a wholesaler, and if that day should arrive, I will certainly be picky about who I wholesale the animals to. I would prefer to limit my breeding of the animals that will produce most of the "unwanted" offspring, though, than be forced to sell them to someone who has no interest in their health or wellbeing. There's a guy that flips lots of animals at the local shows here that pretty much lived out of his truck and keeps the animals in the truck. I've seen him tossing dead turtles in the trash while getting them out to set up at the show. I'd much rather not breed them than sell to someone like that.

Sometimes you can't tell who you are selling to at a show.... they may seem fine, but they could flip em a day later or have em for the rest of their life.... you just can't tell sometimes and you can't beat yourself to death over it either.

Sometimes you can't tell who you are selling to at a show.... they may seem fine, but they could flip em a day later or have em for the rest of their life.... you just can't tell sometimes and you can't beat yourself to death over it either.

truth is bro
you know you take care of your critters.
if the guy sells it at the show, that's probably the best thing that could have happened to the animal.
ck

Sometimes you can't tell who you are selling to at a show.... they may seem fine, but they could flip em a day later or have em for the rest of their life.... you just can't tell sometimes and you can't beat yourself to death over it either.

This is true, but you can know who you wholesale your critters to. Of course, I don't just sell a retic to just anybody, either.. But with the balls or something else, yeah, you can't know what will happen to the animal once you sell it. If I get a scumbag feeling from a prospective customer, I may try to find a way to not sell to them without being all uptight about it, but you never know and you can't beat yourself up about it if it happens.

I have more to comment on this but I will wait until after I get to hear what all USARK has to say tonight because if they are successful in making it easier to export some of the big breeders along with the smaller ones will have another market they can reach easier.


What are your comments? Thanks.

What are your comments? Thanks.

Well if it all goes the way it seems it will the mass breeders will start shipping more overseas now, which will draw away from them dealing with the US flippers. Not saying that scenario makes it any better since they will probably have some of the same issues in some other country, since the little I know of exporting you still have to have a party on the other end that handles any laws of the importing country so all I can hope is that they deal with good people there, I would think it would be in their best interest to since their name is attached to them.

I see the flippers not being able to get good stock all the time in large wholesale amounts like they do now with the borders being opened up which I hope will just help them dwindle back into the darkness from where they came from. Sure that is a dream but they would have to go back to peddling half dead imports at swap meets showing exactly the caliber of people they are either that or they will have to start producing their own stuff.

This is the part that I see getting tricky, not every small breeder will be able to compete in the world market but with any hope the over saturation that has happened will start to die off with it.

Now if you even wanted to take it a step further you could have someone learn the laws in a few areas overseas and get some contacts and decent people on the other end and have the small breeders form a co op that could then deal as a larger group to get animals overseas. Each small breeder being responsible for their own fees and paperwork but having an outlet that could be trusted if the demand is there. Something like that is a long way off but you get the idea....

There is such as huge market that we couldn't easily get to before that I hope we can now.