Flipper defined...

"A person who sells retail/wholesale a GREATER number animals from breeding other than their own breeding in a given year".

Is this the basic definition that we have adopted up to this point?
If not, please refine so that we may have some standard/basic definition when we discuss the subject. Thoughts???

IMO it doesn't have anything to do with the number they produce -- if they are buying/procuring animals for the sole purpose of reselling then they are flipping -- I don't care if they produce 10,000 and flip 100 -- they are still flipping.

IMO it doesn't have anything to do with the number they produce -- if they are buying/procuring animals for the sole purpose of reselling then they are flipping -- I don't care if they produce 10,000 and flip 100 -- they are still flipping.

I agree 100% with you Tosha...What about those that produce numbers just to flip?

Kevin

www.kmsreptiles.com

If you are producing to sell, that is not flipping, it is just producing. If you produce so many that you are having to give them away to get rid of them, than that is a problem. However, what is wrong with producing to sell?

Bill I've read some of your posts around the different forums.. Your not a dumb guy.. You know what the term means and it's definition.. By the way hows Josh been???

Alan

Okay then...just so I'm clear as well....and I'm not trying to justify anything one way or another...

Say, someone got an animal for the sole purpose of reselling; if it was properly quarantined, accurately represented, and priced reasonably.....would that be considered flipping?

I also think we need to have a stickied/pinned topic clearly defining what a flipper is.

Bump?

Okay then...just so I'm clear as well....and I'm not trying to justify anything one way or another...

Say, someone got an animal for the sole purpose of reselling; if it was properly quarantined, accurately represented, and priced reasonably.....would that be considered flipping?

I also think we need to have a stickied/pinned topic clearly defining what a flipper is.


Yeah it's still flipping, but one or two animals, maybe gotten in trade, (IMO) is forgivable - unless you make a practice out of it.

Ok dumb question.

Call them flippers so be it. However to my mind there are those that do it right and those that are scum.

If you buy CB normals from a big breeder who other wise would put them in the freezer. You get these animals at a fair price, QT them for 30+ day, Feed them properly, then price said normals at a fair normal price and sale them as "normal Ball Pythons" for pets.
Your a flipper but are you a bad person? are you a detriment to the hobby. To me NO!

Now if you buy lots of normal CH baby's don't QT them and pick out some odd ones to jack the price up on, and flood the market with poor quality animals your slim.

If your buying morphs for 1/3rd the going price and selling them for 1/2 the going rate then your slim.

I think that flipping can strengthen the hobby if done right and done with the same devotion and business sense that breeders operate with.

Imagine a normal non-morph market that no longer needs CH supplement. How much happier would beginning hobbiest be if their first experience in the hobby was a quility, healthy, CB normal from a pet-store that gets their stuff from a flipper that buys from say NERD, RDR or VPI instead of a non-feeding, small, CH animal.

Ok dumb question.

Call them flippers so be it. However to my mind there are those that do it right and those that are scum.

If you buy CB normals from a big breeder who other wise would put them in the freezer. You get these animals at a fair price, QT them for 30+ day, Feed them properly, then price said normals at a fair normal price and sale them as "normal Ball Pythons" for pets.
Your a flipper but are you a bad person? are you a detriment to the hobby. To me NO!

Now if you buy lots of normal CH baby's don't QT them and pick out some odd ones to jack the price up on, and flood the market with poor quality animals your slim.

If your buying morphs for 1/3rd the going price and selling them for 1/2 the going rate then your slim.

I think that flipping can strengthen the hobby if done right and done with the same devotion and business sense that breeders operate with.

Imagine a normal non-morph market that no longer needs CH supplement. How much happier would beginning hobbiest be if their first experience in the hobby was a quility, healthy, CB normal from a pet-store that gets their stuff from a flipper that buys from say NERD, RDR or VPI instead of a non-feeding, small, CH animal.
Excellent post :)

Ok dumb question.

Call them flippers so be it. However to my mind there are those that do it right and those that are scum.

If you buy CB normals from a big breeder who other wise would put them in the freezer. You get these animals at a fair price, QT them for 30+ day, Feed them properly, then price said normals at a fair normal price and sale them as "normal Ball Pythons" for pets.
Your a flipper but are you a bad person? are you a detriment to the hobby. To me NO!

Now if you buy lots of normal CH baby's don't QT them and pick out some odd ones to jack the price up on, and flood the market with poor quality animals your slim.

If your buying morphs for 1/3rd the going price and selling them for 1/2 the going rate then your slim.

I think that flipping can strengthen the hobby if done right and done with the same devotion and business sense that breeders operate with.

Imagine a normal non-morph market that no longer needs CH supplement. How much happier would beginning hobbiest be if their first experience in the hobby was a quility, healthy, CB normal from a pet-store that gets their stuff from a flipper that buys from say NERD, RDR or VPI instead of a non-feeding, small, CH animal.


Just imagine how much better the marketplace would be if freezing and dumping unwanted animals wasn't considered acceptable.

Just imagine how much better the marketplace would be if freezing and dumping unwanted animals wasn't considered acceptable.

I totally agree. But the only reason they have to freeze them is because the word flipper brings forth images of RI's, mites, and smoke filled back rooms with a black market feel to them.

If bigger breeders weren't given crap for selling to flippers who do it right then the freezer wouldn't be acceptable because they have a quility outlet for them.

So we've now established that flipping is not wrong if it is done in the right way (i.e. proper QT, honest representation, and reasonable price).

Now, I understand from a "bush-league" breeder's standpoint, it is frowned upon, and not as ideal as producing your own animals. But in the big picture of the herp market as a whole, IMHO flipping (if done properly) should not be considered unethical or wrong; it is simply business; nothing more and nothing less. It's just like if you are in the business of selling anything else; you buy said item(s) for X amount, and you sell them for more to make profit. That's how business works. But as said numerous times before, in the area of selling snakes, it behooves a good businessman to QT his stock and accurately represent them when he offers them for sale.


So in all this blanket animosity against flippers in general, I feel all the "haters" really need to distinguish between the good and the bad, because right now, all this contempt is like someone hating all snake-keepers because a few idiots let their burmese pythons loose in the Everglades.

Is it really right to judge an entire practice because of the actions of some?

So we've now established that flipping is not wrong if it is done in the right way (i.e. proper QT, honest representation, and reasonable price).

Now, I understand from a "bush-league" breeder's standpoint, it is frowned upon, and not as ideal as producing your own animals. But in the big picture of the herp market as a whole, IMHO flipping (if done properly) should not be considered unethical or wrong; it is simply business; nothing more and nothing less. It's just like if you are in the business of selling anything else; you buy said item(s) for X amount, and you sell them for more to make profit. That's how business works. But as said numerous times before, in the area of selling snakes, it behooves a good businessman to QT his stock and accurately represent them when he offers them for sale.


So in all this blanket animosity against flippers in general, I feel all the "haters" really need to distinguish between the good and the bad, because right now, all this contempt is like someone hating all snake-keepers because a few idiots let their burmese pythons loose in the Everglades.

Is it really right to judge an entire practice because of the actions of some?

We need a karma feature...... :yessir: Awesome Post.

So in all this blanket animosity against flippers in general, I feel all the "haters" really need to distinguish between the good and the bad, because right now, all this contempt is like someone hating all snake-keepers because a few idiots let their burmese pythons loose in the Everglades.

Is it really right to judge an entire practice because of the actions of some?

:yourock::cheers:

So, who are the good flippers? So who do you know that follows those rules of quarantine etc?

So, who are the good flippers? So who do you know that follows those rules of quarantine etc?

That's the question of the hour. How do we know a good flipper from a bad one?

But it's still wrong to automatically assume that anyone who practices selling snakes they did not personally produce is a bad flipper.

It's really a shame that you guys are so caught up in the whole "flipper" shit that your missing the message...

Read the banner at the door folks..NO FLIPPERS...Someone please explain whats so hard about understanding that??? It's not a matter of right or wrong it's a matter that this sites doesn't want them..take your support and justifying of them else where:machinegun:

Black and White.........Yes or No. Pick a side that's all there is to it. Do you have a separate quarantine building? If not it is still a risk.......why not lessen the risk as much as is possible by only buying from people who breed and don't flip? Decide how important your animals and your reputation are to you and pick a side.

Read the banner at the door folks..NO FLIPPERS...Someone please explain whats so hard about understanding that??? It's not a matter of right or wrong it's a matter that this sites doesn't want them..take your support and justifying of them else where:machinegun:

So.... No Flippers, that means, there arent flippers on this site and are not allowed?

Does that also mean people cant TALK about it? Are people free to have their opinions and give valid points for OR against them? if not..... Change the sign to say " No Flipper Talk" Then :)

Read the banner at the door folks..NO FLIPPERS...Someone please explain whats so hard about understanding that??? It's not a matter of right or wrong it's a matter that this sites doesn't want them..take your support and justifying of them else where:machinegun:

Done!

How do we know a good flipper from a bad one?


That was the point of my question, no one can say good flippers exist. But, I know for a fact that bad ones do.

So.... No Flippers, that means, there arent flippers on this site and are not allowed?

Does that also mean people cant TALK about it? Are people free to have their opinions and give valid points for OR against them? if not..... Change the sign to say " No Flipper Talk" Then :)

Ditto.

I'm all for bush-league breeders and producing your animals, etc; its the reason I joined the site in the first place. I perfectly understand its called the "Bush League BREEDERS Club" and not the Bush-League Sellers Club." Fine; point made, BT.

But if you're going to completely disallow anyone who has ever sold a snake they didn't produce themselves from participating in this site, then there's a problem. It's called a dictatorship, and its precisely why Reptile Channel forums suck, its why Kingsnake forums suck and its why the B.O.I. sometimes sucks.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion about something. You don't like flippers and prefer not to buy from them? Fantastic, I'm right there with you. But I also would like to have the freedom to discuss the matter and share my own opinions. If I'm not allowed to do that, then you and Larry need to specify this in the rules of the site that clearly state "no discussion of flippers will be tolerated" in which case, I will promptly request my account be deleted...because I will not be part of a forum that censors topic just because "they don't like the topic."

For the record, I'm notsupporting all flippers; I'm just trying to look at all sides of a controversial topic and share my thoughts. Once again, if that is against the rules, you need to let me know asap.

So.... No Flippers, that means, there arent flippers on this site and are not allowed?

Does that also mean people cant TALK about it? Are people free to have their opinions and give valid points for OR against them? if not..... Change the sign to say " No Flipper Talk" Then :)

There's flippers here I'm sure lurking....JNJ for example..They can read the sign..you don't see them trying to justify flipping here do you??? We haven't kicked them out...if they try and justify themselves here that may be a different story...Everyone is welcome here from what I have seen from the start...just follow the rules of BT and Larry's site...I don't think they can be any clearer then the sign on the door as to what they want this site to stand for.....I think it's down right disrespectful doing what some are doing here trying to justify flippers on here knowing what is posted on the banner...I mean I wouldn't come to your house and try and justify something you don't belive in why would it be any different on here??? You don't like it here you don't have to be here....I do like wise on other sites myself I don't like...Theres sites out there that support flippers this not one of them from what I take so far....

Well, like them or not, flippers both bad and good (if the latter even exist) are a part of the market...and if anyone here sells snakes (whether they produced them themselves or not) on a semi-regular basis, you are a part of the same market.

Ergo, I really don't think its wrong to discuss the issue here in the Market / Business Talk section of this forum.

I think it's down right disrespectful doing what some are doing here trying to justify flippers on here knowing what is posted on the banner...I mean I wouldn't come to your house and try and justify something you don't belive in why would it be any different on here???

Poor analogy. This isn't a private residence; its a public online forum welcome for anyone to join. Its comparing apples to oranges.

By clearly putting "No Flippers" on the BLBC banner, BT and Larry have essentially opened the door for the issue to be discussed.

Once more, I totally agree with the disadvantages of flipping (right way or wrong).

However, its still my humble opinion that it is not wrong for someone to sell snakes they didn't produce themselves as long as they QT and honestly represent. Still risky to buy from? Of course. Would it be better to get from a trusted breeder? Totally.

But is it necessarily wrong/unethical/evil? Not at all.

That's still just my own opinion. You can take it or leave it. If you don't want to discuss flippers, don't bother with this thread.

Flipping turns this hobby into nothing but a puppy mill type business. It is sad that people want to support such a thing - show me the good in it being acceptable for people to dump animals that they don't want to have to deal with - whether it's a snake or a puppy it's wrong -- I don't care who they come from or how they are QTed. There needs to be a little more ethics, responsibility and accountability in this hobby.

Flipping turns this hobby into nothing but a puppy mill type business. It is sad that people want to support such a thing - show me the good in it being acceptable for people to dump animals that they don't want to have to deal with - whether it's a snake or a puppy it's wrong -- I don't care who they come from or how they are QTed. There needs to be a little more ethics, responsibility and accountability in this hobby.

Agreed. But then part of the problem isn't just the flippers then ; its the big breeders who produce more animals than they can move themselves.

Flipping turns this hobby into nothing but a puppy mill type business. It is sad that people want to support such a thing - show me the good in it being acceptable for people to dump animals that they don't want to have to deal with - whether it's a snake or a puppy it's wrong -- I don't care who they come from or how they are QTed. There needs to be a little more ethics, responsibility and accountability in this hobby.

So when one purchases an animal, and then decides that animal is no longer needed in their future plans and sells said animal (that they didn't produce) - is that dumping the animal? Does that make that person a flipper? Darn skippy if I sell Winston, my lemon pastel (but I'm not) - but if I did, I'd be selling him for more than I paid for him. He's now a proven breeder. Would I then be a flipper? Is it the original intent of my purchase of the animal or length of time it's in my collection (two years now for my lemon pastel) that defines if I'm flipping him/her?

I too am confused where the line is drawn for what defines a flipper according to BLBC. I'd bet a good number of the members here have either purchased from a flipper (at least what I can glean the BLBC definition of a flipper is), or have purchased from a breeder who has purchased from a flipper (or even sold to a flipper) - knowingly or not.

How many degrees of separation must one be from a flipper for it to be ok to support a breeder? A is a flipper. B buys from A, C buys from B, D buys from C......etc.

Not trying to be contrary, I'm really trying to figure out where the line is drawn.

A flipper is someone who buys for the sole intent of re-selling them. Usually as quickly as possible and wayyyyy below what they are selling for on the classifieds.

No you wouldn't be a flipper if you sold winston.... maybe a little nutz, but not a flipper.

Poor analogy. This isn't a private residence; its a public online forum welcome for anyone to join. Its comparing apples to oranges.

I agree that wasn't the best analogy (lol)...I know this site isn't private duh...I never once thought it was and didn't mean to apply it was sorry if that came across that way...Still The sign say's "no flippers" yet a lot seem to think by some means they are gonna justfiy flippers here and not catch any flak for doing so.

I don't see it as comparing apples and oranges it's stirring the pot on a topic that is already made well known by BT and Larry on how they view flippers and what this site stands for and how it views flippers. If someone wants a site that supports flippers then this isn't the site for them. Plain and simple :)


If you don't want to discuss flippers, don't bother with this thread.

I'm not discussing them here...simply was stating the sign at the door and how some seem to keep forgetting we don't support flippers here period!!!:machinegun:

I too am confused where the line is drawn for what defines a flipper according to BLBC. I'd bet a good number of the members here have either purchased from a flipper (at least what I can glean the BLBC definition of a flipper is), or have purchased from a breeder who has purchased from a flipper (or even sold to a flipper) - knowingly or not.

How many degrees of separation must one be from a flipper for it to be ok to support a breeder? A is a flipper. B buys from A, C buys from B, D buys from C......etc.

Not trying to be contrary, I'm really trying to figure out where the line is drawn.

I believe that is the main issue at hand. It would seem many here fervently believe either "you are or you aren't" and there's no point in discussing it any further; end of story, period, zip it. I respectfully disagree. Like you, I would like to know exactly where the line is drawn and what degree of separation is "acceptable" to the BLBC?

It also seems that anyone who resells an animal they themselves did not produce is automatically labeled a flipper. Once again, I respectfully disagree. Such as in the hypothetical scenario you posed, rabarnet, I personally would not term you as a flipper in that situation.

Here's another great case: anyone who regularly checks KS classifieds might have noticed that Pro Exotics is trying to sell one of their adult male Boelen's pythons. They claim they simply have too many males. Robin was on RR not too long ago, and said himself they had not produced any Boelens. So ergo, this large male they have for sale was not produced by ProExotics.

Is Pro Exotics now considered flipper scum by the BLBC never to be dealt with again? Are they wrong and unethical for trying to sell that animal?

So to rephrase the OP's question....

...is anyone who resells an animal they did not produce considered a flipper, regardless of reputation, numbers, length of time, QT practices, price, etc?

I'm so tired of these flipper threads..

The whole anti-flipper campaign that BT and myself started is, was and always will be aimed at the true bad guys and the scum of the industry.

The death dealers, the lack of quarantine, the misrepresentation, the dishonest that is what the campaign is aimed at.

The Bush-League Breeders Club supports breeders and speaks out against the true ailments of the hobby, all the while bringing breeders together. We' re not out to split hairs and divide good breeders into an us against them war.

It seems people are reading way too far into it. We're not looking to label reputable people as trash over the very details of the word "Flipper"

I'm so tired of these flipper threads..

Amen!!!

It's Like trying to reinvent the wheel every week or daily anymore:machinegun:

I'm so tired of these flipper threads..

The whole anti-flipper campaign that BT and myself started is, was and always will be aimed at the true bad guys and the scum of the industry.

The death dealers, the lack of quarantine, the misrepresentation, the dishonest that is what the campaign is aimed at.

The Bush-League Breeders Club supports breeders and speaks out against the true ailments of the hobby, all the while bringing breeders together. We' re not out to split hairs and divide good breeders into an us against them war.

It seems people are reading way too far into it. We're not looking to label reputable people as trash over the very details of the word "Flipper"

Thank you and enough.....too much....has been said and taken out of context that to me the flipper threads are dead threads:machinegun:

I'm so tired of these flipper threads..

The whole anti-flipper campaign that BT and myself started is, was and always will be aimed at the true bad guys and the scum of the industry.

The death dealers, the lack of quarantine, the misrepresentation, the dishonest that is what the campaign is aimed at.

The Bush-League Breeders Club supports breeders and speaks out against the true ailments of the hobby, all the while bringing breeders together. We' re not out to split hairs and divide good breeders into an us against them war.

It seems people are reading way too far into it. We're not looking to label reputable people as trash over the very details of the word "Flipper"

I can't speak for anyone else, but the only reason I was "reading too far" into it because it seemed such a vague term to begin with, and apparently I wasn't the only one with confusion on the definition. Thats why this has been carried on as long as it has.

I think it can safely be said that not every person who resells snakes should automatically be labeled the derogatory term of "flipper."

I'm so tired of these flipper threads..

The whole anti-flipper campaign that BT and myself started is, was and always will be aimed at the true bad guys and the scum of the industry.

The death dealers, the lack of quarantine, the misrepresentation, the dishonest that is what the campaign is aimed at.

The Bush-League Breeders Club supports breeders and speaks out against the true ailments of the hobby, all the while bringing breeders together. We' re not out to split hairs and divide good breeders into an us against them war.

It seems people are reading way too far into it. We're not looking to label reputable people as trash over the very details of the word "Flipper"

I agree! People need to thicken their skin up and quit worrying if they fit the bill of a flipper....I see this all as an attempt to make sure they don't qualify as one with all the run around and different angles, do what you think is right and be willing to stand up behind it if your asked about it.

I agree! People need to thicken their skin up and quit worrying if they fit the bill of a flipper....I see this all as an attempt to make sure they don't qualify as one with all the run around and different angles, do what you think is right and be willing to stand up behind it if your asked about it.

:yourock::yessir:

I agree! People need to thicken their skin up and quit worrying if they fit the bill of a flipper....I see this all as an attempt to make sure they don't qualify as one with all the run around and different angles, do what you think is right and be willing to stand up behind it if your asked about it.

Perfect:yessir:

Ditto.

I'm all for bush-league breeders and producing your animals, etc; its the reason I joined the site in the first place. I perfectly understand its called the "Bush League BREEDERS Club" and not the Bush-League Sellers Club." Fine; point made, BT.

But if you're going to completely disallow anyone who has ever sold a snake they didn't produce themselves from participating in this site, then there's a problem. It's called a dictatorship, and its precisely why Reptile Channel forums suck, its why Kingsnake forums suck and its why the B.O.I. sometimes sucks.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion about something. You don't like flippers and prefer not to buy from them? Fantastic, I'm right there with you. But I also would like to have the freedom to discuss the matter and share my own opinions. If I'm not allowed to do that, then you and Larry need to specify this in the rules of the site that clearly state "no discussion of flippers will be tolerated" in which case, I will promptly request my account be deleted...because I will not be part of a forum that censors topic just because "they don't like the topic."

For the record, I'm notsupporting all flippers; I'm just trying to look at all sides of a controversial topic and share my thoughts. Once again, if that is against the rules, you need to let me know asap.

Since you feel the need to call me out by name - I'll explain it to you..."No flippers, No Middle Men or Wannabe Superstars" is a slogan...Just like the whole "Midnight Madness" - It's a slogan for Reptile Radio? No one ever said they participate - Hell I've ask one in particular why he doesn't participate...Don't act like this is some kind of "dictatorship"...LOL...Everybody is free to their own opinions...What I find amusing is all you peeps are all freak out about my opinion...We're talking about it are we not? To me there's nothing controversial about the topic...Spend your money with whomever you wish...This site and me in particular supports the person that actually produces the product I'm after...What's so hard to understand about that...I'm sure there are great, honest and law abiding flippers out there - More power to them...But they ain't getting my money...We're here to support people like us...I'm still trying to figure out this "flippers can't participate rule"...

Maybe your talking about the rules of the classifieds and no - Flippers will not flip their snakes here at the BLBC...

What really makes me smile is there is 45 sub forums here and the majority of time you and a few other spend here trying to figure out whats a good flipper and a bad flipper...Does make me giggle that little ol me can cause such a shit storm with my little ol opinion about a bad practice...

Enjoy the site - There's actually a whole more to it that the Watchdog Forum, Saloon and BLBC Business Talk...

So when one purchases an animal, and then decides that animal is no longer needed in their future plans and sells said animal (that they didn't produce) - is that dumping the animal? Does that make that person a flipper? Darn skippy if I sell Winston, my lemon pastel (but I'm not) - but if I did, I'd be selling him for more than I paid for him. He's now a proven breeder. Would I then be a flipper? Is it the original intent of my purchase of the animal or length of time it's in my collection (two years now for my lemon pastel) that defines if I'm flipping him/her?

I too am confused where the line is drawn for what defines a flipper according to BLBC. I'd bet a good number of the members here have either purchased from a flipper (at least what I can glean the BLBC definition of a flipper is), or have purchased from a breeder who has purchased from a flipper (or even sold to a flipper) - knowingly or not.

How many degrees of separation must one be from a flipper for it to be ok to support a breeder? A is a flipper. B buys from A, C buys from B, D buys from C......etc.

Not trying to be contrary, I'm really trying to figure out where the line is drawn.

Your not confused - You know exactly were we stand...These questions have come up over and over again and we're beating a dead horse...You know exactly the kinds of flippers we're talking about...You've sent me PM's on BP.net thanksing me for about what I've said on shows about flippers and their BS ad's...You've read my post - On your board - About what I think are flippers and why I don't support them or show them love...

Your not confused - You know exactly were we stand...These questions have come up over and over again and we're beating a dead horse...You know exactly the kinds of flippers we're talking about...You've sent me PM's on BP.net thanksing me for about what I've said on shows about flippers and their BS ad's...You've read my post - On your board - About what I think are flippers and why I don't support them or show them love...

Actually BT, with all due respect - I was confused when I made that post. Yes, I have PM'd you about posts on BP.net and thanked you for what you've said on shows about flippers, and I agreed with you about the large scaled flippers. I've always supported you and still do.

However, I have seen many people (you included) here state that ANYONE who resells ANY animal is a flipper. I didn't expect that asking for some clarification based on more recent threads was somehow a bad thing?

I agree completely with you on the Ed Clark's of this business. What confused me was when it seemed to start to encompass anyone who re-sold an animal. Then the lines started to get fuzzy to me.

I know how I conduct business. If I'm interested in an animal, I go to a handful of trusted friends in the industry to ask them if they've heard of that person, and would they do business with them. Once I get their feedback, I make my decision. It hasn't failed me so far.

I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from, or perhaps I'm simply mis-reading your tone.

It was an honest question - I'm sorry if you thought it wasn't. :)

Actually BT, with all due respect - I was confused when I made that post. Yes, I have PM'd you about posts on BP.net and thanked you for what you've said on shows about flippers, and I agreed with you about the large scaled flippers. I've always supported you and still do.

Same principles here - Nothing more - Nothing less...

However, I have seen many people (you included) here state that ANYONE who resells ANY animal is a flipper. I didn't expect that asking for some clarification based on more recent threads was somehow a bad thing?

I agree completely with you on the Ed Clark's of this business. What confused me was when it seemed to start to encompass anyone who re-sold an animal. Then the lines started to get fuzzy to me.

I know how I conduct business. If I'm interested in an animal, I go to a handful of trusted friends in the industry to ask them if they've heard of that person, and would they do business with them. Once I get their feedback, I make my decision. It hasn't failed me so far.

I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from, or perhaps I'm simply mis-reading your tone.

It was an honest question - I'm sorry if you thought it wasn't. :)

There is no hosility - Sorry your reading it that way...To be honest - I'm just tired of the spinning and trying to justify the practice of flipping...If I'm sick of talking flippers and that ought to tell you something...There's been plenty of post made about selling snakes that don't fit into projects anymore - What we consider flippers - Ect...Were just beating the horse...The majority of us are on the same page - Some just don't see eye to eye and I'm cool with that...I just don't like being told people can't have opinions and this board is a dictatorship...Neither are true...

Just to clear the air, when I was referring to this site possibly turning into a dictatorship of sorts, I was doing so in response because I was interpreting a general consensus that the very topic itself was taboo to discussion. Apparently, I took that the wrong way and I apologize for dragging out a topic that everyone else is tired of seeing. Apparently, in those previous 500+ threads about flippers, I never saw BLBC's clear definition of a true flipper, so coming in late in the game, I was still in the dark. Hence my avid participation in this thread. Perhaps I just missed it.

The thing with me is...I really really really hate stereotypes and blanket statements that are really only meant for a smaller demographic. Its fine for the genuine scumbags who deserve it, but not fair to everyone else.

Its fine if someone chooses not to buy from Joe Smith just because he's reselling a snake he didn't actually produce in his own basement. Just don't paint him out to be a scumbag if he's properly QT and all that. Its simply not fair to lump him in with the lowlifes that don't practice good QT and try to crash the market.

Its just not so cut-and-dry to say, "well a flipper is a flipper and thats all you need to know" etc etc....and that was my underlying point.

But anyway....one thing I'll agree with BT...I'm pretty tired of discussing the issue myself. I think I've said all I can say. Still a few questions left unanswered, but whatever. Peace out.

P.S. and in response to this statement...

What really makes me smile is there is 45 sub forums here and the majority of time you and a few other spend here trying to figure out whats a good flipper and a bad flipper...

Enjoy the site - There's actually a whole more to it that the Watchdog Forum, Saloon and BLBC Business Talk...

I'm not really a ball python guy, nor am I a BCC, BCI, retic, woma, carpet, blood or blackhead guy. To be honest, I'm not really into lizards or hots either.

I like colubrids and very few species at that. Needless to say, there's not a lot of members here that share my interests, so if you want a reason why I don't post much outside the off-topic and business section, there it is.

The thing with me is...I really really really hate stereotypes and blanket statements that are really only meant for a smaller demographic.

The demographics are not small when it comes to what I consider a scumbag flipper...For every 1 honest flipper you name - I'll bet you I can name 10 scumbags...

I'm not really a ball python guy, nor am I a BCC, BCI, retic, woma, carpet, blood or blackhead guy. To be honest, I'm not really into lizards or hots either.

I like colubrids and very few species at that. Needless to say, there's not a lot of members here that share my interests, so if you want a reason why I don't post much outside the off-topic and business section, there it is.

Hate to hear your interest are that narrow...Lots of really cool stuff out there to play with...:yessir:

Wow I really don't get whats so hard to understand about the idealogy of don't buy from flippers??? If you still don't get it after all thats been posted here your never going to.. It's not a hard thing to grasp.. People that only buy to resell don't quarantine their animals, label import ch's as the next new morph, and sell gravids are trash.. I've bought from a flipper when I first got online.. But hell I didn't know a flipper from a hole in the ground.. I also had a bad experience with said flipper.. Yeah one of the animals that I bought died in 2 weeks.. Imagine that!! So now I choose to only buy from the person that produces and has a love for the animals I'm looking for.. So no if you sell your proven breeder pastel male that you no longer need it doesn't make you a flipper!! :lol:

Alan

I like colubrids and very few species at that. Needless to say, there's not a lot of members here that share my interests, so if you want a reason why I don't post much outside the off-topic and business section, there it is.

You got a camera??? Break that baby out...Youv'e posted some pictures before on here...post some more :)We all loves reptiles here and I haven't seen a person yet complain of to many pictures...I think theres more in common among us then some give credit to...We might not see eye to eye on everything...But We all have a passion for reptiles...I don't have any colubrids but I don't mind learning about them..Share some things on them...got questions on any reptiles ask them....

Not sure if you know V on here but he is just one example on this site who has taught a lot of us about monitors..things we never knew about them..at least I didn't. Sharing things on this site is awesome!!!! If you can only post pictures thats great!! If you only respond to pictures that's great...If you lurk that's not great but ok lurk it's your choice that's fine to I guess (lol)...Look at the wider picture and enjoy the site and what it has to offer!!!!

Now for some bananas :wamma::wamma::wamma: and beer for the beer lovers :cheers::cheers:

Now for some bananas :wamma::wamma::wamma: and beer for the beer lovers :cheers::cheers:

Beer, now we're talking! :yessir:

There is no hosility - Sorry your reading it that way...

Good to know! :cheers:

I just don't like being told people can't have opinions and this board is a dictatorship...Neither are true...

I didn't say that in my post, and didn't imply it either. In fact, I probably understand the view where you sit better than most. It isn't any fun having people question how you choose to run your site and every decision you make and every word you write. Unfortunately, it's part of the "job" if you will. :yessir:

Hate to hear your interest are that narrow...Lots of really cool stuff out there to play with...:yessir:

Don't get me wrong, I do lurk around and like to see pics of some of that stuff and learn what I can here and there.

The thing with me is, I like weird and obscure stuff. BPs are cool, but everyone and their brother has got 'em. Everyone breeds them. That's an immediate turn-off for me regrettably. If everyone else messes with them, they're too common to me, regardless of number of morphs. I've done the ball python thing, and they simply don't interest me. Plus, going hand-in-hand with that, its that much harder for any new breeder to find a niche in such a widespread, competitive, and sometimes cutthroat market. Too much trouble to be just like everyone else.

I like the stuff most people have never heard of before, or at least don't work with.

Don't get me wrong, I do lurk around and like to see pics of some of that stuff and learn what I can here and there.

The thing with me is, I like weird and obscure stuff. BPs are cool, but everyone and their brother has got 'em. Everyone breeds them. That's an immediate turn-off for me regrettably. If everyone else messes with them, they're too common to me, regardless of number of morphs. I've done the ball python thing, and they simply don't interest me. Plus, going hand-in-hand with that, its that much harder for any new breeder to find a niche in such a widespread, competitive, and sometimes cutthroat market. Too much trouble to be just like everyone else.

I like the stuff most people have never heard of before, or at least don't work with.


So Post up!!!

I LOVE obscure random, not everyone knows about it stuff!!!

Don't get me wrong, I do lurk around and like to see pics of some of that stuff and learn what I can here and there.

The thing with me is, I like weird and obscure stuff. BPs are cool, but everyone and their brother has got 'em. Everyone breeds them. That's an immediate turn-off for me regrettably. If everyone else messes with them, they're too common to me, regardless of number of morphs. I've done the ball python thing, and they simply don't interest me. Plus, going hand-in-hand with that, its that much harder for any new breeder to find a niche in such a widespread, competitive, and sometimes cutthroat market. Too much trouble to be just like everyone else.

I like the stuff most people have never heard of before, or at least don't work with.


Bps, like anything, ain't for everyone, you gotta get into the stuff you have a passion for... whatever it may be. :cheers:

well i need to read the whole thread before i post lol

If you buy CB normals from a big breeder who other wise would put them in the freezer. You get these animals at a fair price, QT them for 30+ day, Feed them properly, then price said normals at a fair normal price and sale them as "normal Ball Pythons" for pets.
Your a flipper but are you a bad person? are you a detriment to the hobby. To me NO!



Wouldnt that be considered wholesalers?

I agree! People need to thicken their skin up and quit worrying if they fit the bill of a flipper....I see this all as an attempt to make sure they don't qualify as one with all the run around and different angles, do what you think is right and be willing to stand up behind it if your asked about it.


I can QUARANTEE you Mike (shinning snakes) is not a flipper. Ive known him for about 4 years now.

QUARANTEE

NEW WORD , NEW WORD.

What does it mean?:D

NEW WORD , NEW WORD.

What does it mean?:D

Guaranteed to of been quarantined!

yeah... you got me

GUARANTEE.... Im a bit slow today

Are we still beating this dead horse?

Are we still beating this dead horse?

Just as much as on that other thread.... enough with this flipper BS :lol:

http://jetpythons.com/BLBCFlipper.gif

http://jetpythons.com/BLBCFlipper.gif

That horse just won't wake up :yourock:

You got the best images around Tosha! :cheers:

Tosh... I dont think the chest compressions are working.... you may want to try mouth to mouth.... get some air in that thang

Tosh... I dont think the chest compressions are working.... you may want to try mouth to mouth.... get some air in that thang

LOL :cheers: