Ok guys I have a interesting and what should be impossible genetics situation.
I bought a female cinny back in 05, as a 60 gram baby.
Im only providing that info so everyone knows her history and she had never been with another male before I bought her.
Anyway I bred her to a bumblebee in the 08/09 season, she laid 4 eggs and all 4 hatched, she had a spider, pastel, pewter, and pewterbee!
I bred her the 09/10 season to the same bumblebee and she didnt lay that season.
Again this year the 10/11 season I paired her with the same bumblebee.
She laid 7 eggs and 6 hatched, 1 went bad during incubation.
Here is where it gets crazy, Out of the 6 eggs there were 3 normals, 1 pastel, and 2 Super Cinnamons.:dunno:
That should be impossible. I understand that since she didnt lay last year there was a possibility of sperm retention, but she was bred to a bumblebee
that obviously has no cinnamon in him. She wouldnt be able to retain her Follicles from last year with the sperm and mix it with this years and make these would she?

Here is where it gets more interesting. The pewterbee that this pairing produced in the 08/09 season was bred this year too.
I also bred her to the same bumblebee which is her father. She had 8 small yet fertile eggs, 4 went bad over the course of incubation.
However the 4 that hatched a couple of the snakes inside shouldnt be there. One baby hasnt came out yet and is flipped awkward so I dont know what it is.
Anyway one of the eggs also had a super cinnamon in it, and another had a silver bullet. Again these shouldnt be possible, and there was no chance of retention of anykind in her as this was her first breeding period.

Im very stoked yet very confused, amazed, intrigued, and did I say Confused. I have never heard of this before and am curious of everyone's insight
on the situation. I might also add for more confusion, I understand that super cinnys are infamous for being kinked, and the 2 from the cinny x bumblebee are.
Yet the silver bullet and super cinny from the pewter bee x bumblebee are not!!
Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I think my cinny may have a hidden gene that she passed to the pewterbee,
or maybe my Bee is just simply amazing, it did come from BT! :lmao:

I would guess there is something more going on with the bumblebee. Have you ever bred him to a normal? Just to see what you get.

I would guess there is something more going on with the bumblebee. Have you ever bred him to a normal? Just to see what you get.

Same here

that doesnt necessarly has something to do with the bee. plus i think u would see if the bee is a bee or a pewterbee:lmao:

anyway- i think on the motley boas. ive heard it on many occusasions that a motley bred to something else (not motley containing) led into super motelys or super motley combos.

its pretty common there.

jeremy stone produced a t+ super motley from a motely het t+ to t+ breeding.


maybe nick or asplundii can chime in and explain this a bit more, but again- it isnt the first time i heared about a super being made out of one heterozygous...

The bee is defintley just a bee, pastel spider! I bought him from BT back in 05 as a normal baby bumblebee. I have put him with normals and he throws mostly bubmlebees, a few spiders and pastels, and very few normals. Never a cinny morph of any kind when bred to a normal girl. He is defintley not a pewterbee.
Here are some photos of the animals in this equation
Bumblebee Male
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc457/ChadGray01/cgbp07.jpg (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?t=31798)
Cinnamon Female and Cinnamon Female on eggs from this year
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc457/ChadGray01/cgbp05.jpg (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?t=31798)
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc457/ChadGray01/cinnyeggs.jpg (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=31798)
Pewterbee Female and Pewterbee Female on eggs
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc457/ChadGray01/cgbp11.jpg (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?t=31798)
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc457/ChadGray01/pewterbeeeggs.jpg (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=31798)
Below a few hatchlings from a couple years ago from the Bumblebee and cinnamon pairing, the pewterbee above is the pewterbee in this picture. The bumblebee in this picture is from the same bumblebee above but to a normal female. The other snake at the bottom underneath the pewter was not produced by these, its my espresso and I put it in the box at the time for the picture!
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc457/ChadGray01/ballcollection144.jpg (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?t=31798)

I talked to BT a couple hours ago and he confirmed again that there is absolutley no cinnamon in the bumblebee.

That is all very odd, but very cool none the less! Good Luck in figuring it out.

I'd have to agree with the theory along the lines of the Motley Boa. I know the first 2 Super Motleys were produced from a Motley to a normal. It's crazy to think that its a possibility but crazier things have happened. I'd definitely hold on to that little group though!

There are two ways this could could happen. The first is parthanogenesis. this is what is happening with the boas, and it appears that in such cases the resulting "partho" babies are homozygous at every locus, thus you cant make a parthanogenic "het".
This has never been documented in pythons but it has in many other groups of snakes and lizards.

The second possibility is more complicated. This is whats referred to as a monosomy. In such an case one allele at a particular locus fails to be transferred to the offspring, leaving a the animal with just a single copy of that gene. If this occurs at the locus of a morph, the animal will should show the phenotype of the homozygous form of that gene since it lacks any normal copy of the gene to mitigate the full expression of the morph. The empty spot in the genome is called a "null" and it may be possible for such an animal to pass on the "null" to its offspring.

I personally would suspect the monosomy hypothesis is what is happening, but its all speculation. I have a friend that had a similar thing happen with a black pastel to normal breeding a few years ago. I have also seen this happen with retics and carpet pythons as well.

These two hypothesis seem the most likely to me but its possible there are other explanations as well. It would be relatively simple to determine if they are are parthanogenic babies with genetic testing. when they shed send me a PM, I may know a few people who could do the testing. It would be really fascinating to finally have hard evidence for these theories.

Nick

There are two ways this could could happen. The first is parthanogenesis. this is what is happening with the boas, and it appears that in such cases the resulting "partho" babies are homozygous at every locus, thus you cant make a parthanogenic "het".
This has never been documented in pythons but it has in many other groups of snakes and lizards.

The second possibility is more complicated. This is whats referred to as a monosomy. In such an case one allele at a particular locus fails to be transferred to the offspring, leaving a the animal with just a single copy of that gene. If this occurs at the locus of a morph, the animal will should show the phenotype of the homozygous form of that gene since it lacks any normal copy of the gene to mitigate the full expression of the morph. The empty spot in the genome is called a "null" and it may be possible for such an animal to pass on the "null" to its offspring.

I personally would suspect the monosomy hypothesis is what is happening, but its all speculation. I have a friend that had a similar thing happen with a black pastel to normal breeding a few years ago. I have also seen this happen with retics and carpet pythons as well.

These two hypothesis seem the most likely to me but its possible there are other explanations as well. It would be relatively simple to determine if they are are parthanogenic babies with genetic testing. when they shed send me a PM, I may know a few people who could do the testing. It would be really fascinating to finally have hard evidence for these theories.

Nick


is it generally possible that the monosomy thing is somehow manifested in their genes?

i ask because obviously it happend on more than one incident


edit: sorry- just read it again. its possible that they give the "null" away so my question is answered with that.

is it generally possible to prove this theory with their sheds too, or can u just prove the parthanogenesis theory?

Will do Nick, what will they need for the testing?

A shed skin should do it. Let it dry out and put it in a ziplock bag. I know a couple of guys who might be able to do the testing, but I would have to check with them. I would use their second sheds, as if they are housed together prior to the first shed there may be a possibility of contamination. the partho theory should be easy to test. the monosomy theory would probably be more difficult to test.

It may be useful have sample from the mother and father as well.

Nick

Ill let you know when I have all of them!

Dr. Warren Booth typically does the testing for us boa guys. I'm fairly certain that he can do it for Ball Pythons as well. He typically requests shed skins from both parents and each of the offspring.

Following this!

what is that snake in the last pic under the pewter looks wierd and is not a normal or a morph?

Orlando, He is my project, I call it the Espresso ball, I am breeding him for the first time this season to a normal to see if he is a dominant or if I get to hold back a bunch of hets. Just hope it doesnt have the same outcome as the coffee ball!!
Here is a pic of him now.
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc457/ChadGray01/cgbp12.jpg (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=31798)

If BT says no cinny then you have to believe it, but that bumblebee is aweful dark. Not like browned out pastel but dark as if it may have a secret.

James, I agree. I have got several animals from BT and none have ever been mislabled.
I am still waiting on them to all shed so I can get in touch with Nick!

Great thread!

Wow this is such an interesting topic, I wish I had more input but I will say that I'm VERY interested to see what a geneticist would have to say about this.

I am in agreement with Nick on this being a monosomy case. Black Pastel and Cinny seem to throw a lot of paradox-type animals, I am inclined to think there is something about this locus that is prone to instability.

I think the Bumble bee is a Cinnamon.

Dave

Is it just me or does the bee and pewter bee look a lot alike, normal bees are not that dark.

I think the Bumble bee is a Cinnamon.

Dave

i agree that it really looks very dark, but that doesnt necessarly mean it a pewterbee.

ralph davis got a clown once from a clown x caramel breeding. and the female wasnt a het clown caramel.

Trust me guys, the bumblebee is not a pewterbee.
Here is a pic of the bumblebee as a baby and the pewterbee as a baby!
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc457/ChadGray01/babybumblebee.jpg (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?t=31798&page=4)http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc457/ChadGray01/babypewterbee.jpg (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?t=31798&page=4)

I love all this genetic and scientific talk.

Better than listening to someone tell someone else that they need this and that and a temperature gradient with heat rock and acquariums etc etc etc.

This is right up my alley. I LOVE IT !!!!

I love all this genetic and scientific talk.

Better than listening to someone tell someone else that they need this and that and a temperature gradient with heat rock and acquariums etc etc etc.

This is right up my alley. I LOVE IT !!!!


:lol: I'm not litterate enough to fully grasp most of what's been said in here, but it IS all very interesting :yes:. I'm still half inclined to believe the Bee has something goin' on JUST because it came from BT :lmao:. Either that or Immaculate conception :D.

What happen with this did u ever find out what was going on with the genetics of your snakes.

What happen with this did u ever find out what was going on with the genetics of your snakes.

THIS!