My Eastern up chucked his second rodent meal about 24 hours after he ate. Is this possibly an Eastern thing because of their amphibious diet?

Also there was no damage from digestive juices to the corpse. Isn't 24 hours long enough for the digestive juices to have kicked in?

Lastly, should I treat this like any other regurge and give him a couple weeks off before attempting to feed again?

Thanks in advance for ANY help.

Quig

Been a long time since I've had any easterns, but I don't remember having a problem like that. Once they eat them, it's usually smooth sailing. Getting them to eat them the first time is usually the problem.

24 hours is long enough for the digestive juices to affect the rodent. However, it makes me wonder if the little guy every made it to the stomach, or if the snake only half swallowed it. Did you notice how far down it went?

I would definitely give him at least a week before trying again.
Good luck.

Firstly, what are the temps?
Secondly, how big was the meal?

These two bits of info are important...

I doubt very much it has anything at all to do with the fact it is eating rodents...

I would not wait very long to feed again... Colubrids generally only need a couple of days to recoup after a regurge...

Been a long time since I've had any easterns, but I don't remember having a problem like that. Once they eat them, it's usually smooth sailing. Getting them to eat them the first time is usually the problem.

24 hours is long enough for the digestive juices to affect the rodent. However, it makes me wonder if the little guy every made it to the stomach, or if the snake only half swallowed it. Did you notice how far down it went?

I would definitely give him at least a week before trying again.
Good luck.

Shane, when I DID decide to switch him over he took that first one(scented) almost immediately. I kept an eye on it for the first two or three hours because the meal didn't seem to want to go down all the way so this may be part of the problem. Thanks

Firstly, what are the temps?
Secondly, how big was the meal?

These two bits of info are important...

I doubt very much it has anything at all to do with the fact it is eating rodents...

I would not wait very long to feed again... Colubrids generally only need a couple of days to recoup after a regurge...

Gregg, I'm runnin' room temps in this weather, the room runs warm, which is giving him about 80 or so day time and 70-75 night time temps. I sweat in here all the time :D.

This meal was a rat pink that ran probably 20 grams. Maybe too large? I'm going to the city Friday. I'll pick up some small F/T mice and see how it goes.

Thanks.

Gregg, I'm runnin' room temps in this weather, the room runs warm, which is giving him about 80 or so day time and 70-75 night time temps. I sweat in here all the time :D.


I would run the temps a bit hotter... Give it a hot spot in the low 90's... I have caught Easterns in Long Island NY, mid day, when ground temps were way in the 90's... They bask at high temps during the day... On an all amphibian diet, digestion may be easy and high temps may not be need... If you are making the switch to rodents, higher basking temps would be helpful in my opinion...

If you are sweating at 80 degrees, you do not want to stay in my herp room long... LOL

I would run the temps a bit hotter... Give it a hot spot in the low 90's... I have caught Easterns in Long Island NY, mid day, when ground temps were way in the 90's... They bask at high temps during the day... On an all amphibian diet, digestion may be easy and high temps may not be need... If you are making the switch to rodents, higher basking temps would be helpful in my opinion...

If you are sweating at 80 degrees, you do not want to stay in my herp room long... LOL

Gregg, thanks. It makes sense that they would need hotter temps to digest rodents. That's easily fixed :yes:.

As I've aged I find I don't do near as well in heat as I used to, and I HATE it.

...
I doubt very much it has anything at all to do with the fact it is eating rodents...

I would not wait very long to feed again... Colubrids generally only need a couple of days to recoup after a regurge...

as he sayed :yes:

Quig, only give a hot spot about 85. Eastern do not like it as hot as westerns at all, and do not do very well at the temps Greg suggested at all. Do not make the mistake of caring for your eastern the same way as you would a western.

Also, go with Dr Shane's advice and wait a week before trying to feed again, going with a frozen toad first feed. I find that it is most often back to square one with converting an eastern to rodent if they regurge one of those first few rodent meals.

I have had westerns regurge, and I have had easterns regurge. Easterns do not recover as fast as westerns do. Not sure if it is something to do with the radical change in diet, since most easterns are WC, or what exactly it is, but I have seen it many times. What I can tell you is that they are not as hardy as their western cousins.

Thanks Jenea :yes:

Quig, I keep my easterns 75-80 with no hot spot at all and they do just fine. Only difference I really see are those nighttime drops below 75 that you have, which might be the problem. Another thing to consider is parasite load. Parasite loads can bloom in captivity, especially considering the wc toad diet. That can cause regurge as well. Might be worth getting a fecal done.

Several years ago I had an eastern that would regurge anything with hair...but if I fed hairless would keep it down...easterns are just quirky animals.

Also, go with Dr Shane's advice and wait a week before trying to feed again, going with a frozen toad first feed. I find that it is most often back to square one with converting an eastern to rodent if they regurge one of those first few rodent meals.

Thing is I think we have all seen colubrids eat a day or two after a regurg. The trouble is they are much better at hiding medical problems than boids are. How many times have we seen a seemingly healthy colubrid die for no explainable reason? Not that it doesn't happen in boids, but much less often. My point is, just because we've seen a colubrid eat two days after a regurg with no outward ill effects does not mean that we can difinitively conclude that their digestive tracts always recover that quickly. And believe it or not, there is more in a stomach than hydrochloric acid. When you change a snakes (or any other animal for that matter) diet, over time you will change the make up of the stomach fluids. It takes time for that change to occur. This is why Jenea's idea of feeding a toad for that first meal back is so important. When the snake regurges, it regurges stomach fluids as well as the prey. Since the snake hasn't been on rodents for a significant amount of time, when those stomach fluids are replaced, they are going to be geared for an amphibian diet. Remember the first rule of reptile medicine: They do everything slowly. Except bite your hand.
Good luck Quig.

I have had westerns regurge, and I have had easterns regurge. Easterns do not recover as fast as westerns do. Not sure if it is something to do with the radical change in diet, since most easterns are WC, or what exactly it is, but I have seen it many times. What I can tell you is that they are not as hardy as their western cousins.

I will bet my last dollar that it has a lot to do with your temps... They are a diurnal species that are active during the hottest parts of the year... They do not tuck away when the temps get into the 90's... They may not be as active but they still come out and bask at those temps...

I personally do not keep Easterns but a few people I know do and they keep them very much like Westerns... It is also a species that is native to my area so have data on animals I collected in the field and most were caught while basking at ground temps well into the mid 90's...

People say not to keep corns over 85 degrees and have been for years... My corns are kept with a hot spot in the 90's and an ambient air temp that goes well into the mid 80's... Been keeping them and breeding them like that for years even though people tell me that they will die at those temps...

My gaboons get a hot spot in the 90's as well even though they do not use it often... However, they do use it from time to time which tells me, they do indeed need it...

I know they are not easterns, however, people used to and still believe that they do not need a high basking temp... The fact is, they do... Easterns are no different... People need to get away from this oldschool train of thought and really look at what we truely dealing with... Easterns are an ectothermic reptile that thrives in very warm climates... Just because they are temperate and can tolarate a variety of climates it does not mean we should offer them the minimum in captivity...

I think one of the reasons people have a hard time getting Easterns to thrive is because they do not offer enough options...

Seriously Quig, offer the hotspot... The worst that can happen is it will not use it... I will bet anything it will use it, especially after a meal...

My point is, just because we've seen a colubrid eat two days after a regurg with no outward ill effects does not mean that we can difinitively conclude that their digestive tracts always recover that quickly.

This does not make any sence to me to be honest... What can we conclude then if there are no outward ill effects??? That the digestive tract does not recover that quickly???
Also, being a vet, you should know that it takes no time at all to produce stomach acids... Infact, stomach acids in reptiles (and most other animals) are not produced until the eating process starts... They do not have a stomach filled with acids waiting for a meal to slide down...


And believe it or not, there is more in a stomach than hydrochloric acid. When you change a snakes (or any other animal for that matter) diet, over time you will change the make up of the stomach fluids.

Some literature would be great...

Gregg, I will not argue with a person that has not kept these animals in captivity. Your line of reasoning sounds like the crap that all colubrids can be kept the same. My advice is based on my EXPERIENCE with keeping these animals for the last 30 or so years. Yours is based on what you heard from other people and your own opinion, NOT personal experience with this species captivity. Your "old school" remark is a load of crap, I didn't learn about easterns by basing my care on other species or what other people had to say, I learned by trial and error, by making mistakes and figuring out how to correct them.

First of all, let's not turn this into a pissin' match. No, I'm not sayin' it's headed that way, I just don't wish it to do so. I understand you and Jenea have different ways of doing things and I respect BOTH of your opinions.

That being said, I keep a number of my animals with higher hot spot temps than many people do, and it works well for me. With the Easterns, I've been keeping them at room temp in a room that runs hot on hot days, and with the weather we've had this summer there have been more high 80, low 90 temps in here than I care to remember :D. But I look at it like it's naturally occuring temps in a native area, so it can't be too far off. If they're thriving in it outside, they should be able to do the same in it inside without too much tweakin' yes, no?

As far as a waiting period before feeding again, I think that can be delt with on an individual basis. If I were sure it had swallowed the prey item completely and some digestion had indeed occured, thus weakening the stomache fluids, and some fluids being lost in the regurge, I would likely wait the week or maybe two so those could rebuild somewhat. I saw none of this so assume it didn't get swallowed completely. And will risk feeding it a frog or toad most likely tomorrow.

I appreciate everybodies input and would like this thread to remain simply informative, not turn into a "I'm right and you're wrong" mess. Different things WORK for different people, let's try to respect that.

Thank you

My apologies Quig.

No need for anyone to apologise Jenea :cheers:. I just don't want to see the two of you's bumpin' heads over this is all.

I shall say no more :)

Gregg, I will not argue with a person that has not kept these animals in captivity. Your line of reasoning sounds like the crap that all colubrids can be kept the same. My advice is based on my EXPERIENCE with keeping these animals for the last 30 or so years. Yours is based on what you heard from other people and your own opinion, NOT personal experience with this species captivity. Your "old school" remark is a load of crap, I didn't learn about easterns by basing my care on other species or what other people had to say, I learned by trial and error, by making mistakes and figuring out how to correct them.

My statements were not ment to be argumentative... I was just stating clearly how I see them being kept by a few friends of mine and what conditions I have caught them in in the wild... I have seen easterns thrive when hotspots were added... There is nothing harmful about offering a reptile options... Keeping easterns or any reptile is far from rocket science... You offer them the options and let them pick what they need when they need it... If an Eastern has a ho basking temp and the option to move away from it when they have heated up enough, where is the problem in that??? How can that cause an Eastern to not do well???

Most hognose breeder will tell you that western hogs do not need humidity... I offer a humid hide anyway because in the wild, they will burrow to get humidty... Most, if not all burrowing species do this especially if they are from arrid regions... They use the humid hide often... I have not seen a single URI...

What I meant about old school thought is that it hinders new ideas and progression... Westerns were kept like cornsnakes up until a few years ago... Leopard geckos had a suggested temp maximum of 88 degrees up until 5 or 6 years ago... Now people know better....

This thread was started by Quig to get some ideas on what could be going on... I offered my info that I have gotten from friends, experience with the species on the field and my own experience with species that are far more delicate... There was no need to call everything I wrote "crap"... Its fine if we bump heads a bit... It gives people different views and folks can take bits from both of us and make their own choice... Something you and I did not have when we started keeping reptiles... Just keep it respectful...

This does not make any sence to me to be honest... What can we conclude then if there are no outward ill effects??? That the digestive tract does not recover that quickly???
What I meant was just because there aren't any ill effects sometimes, not all the time. Let me ask you a question Gregg. How many sick animals do you see in a week? For every colubrid you have seen eat one day after regurging, I can recall 10 that either didn't eat or regurged again only to then not eat without lots of trouble.

Also, being a vet, you should know that it takes no time at all to produce stomach acids...
Really? It takes no time at all to produce stomach acid? Is it magic?

Infact, stomach acids in reptiles (and most other animals) are not produced until the eating process starts... They do not have a stomach filled with acids waiting for a meal to slide down..

Where did you go to medical school brother? Not where I did. How many necropsies have you done? Ever open up a dead animal that has no food in it's stomach? Did you find stomach acid in there? My guess is you have no idea. You are assuming because your mouth doesn't start watering and you pacreas doesn't start producing digestive enzymes making your tummy rumble that this equates to stomach acid production. The problem with your theory is the pancreatic duct empties into the duodenum and not the stomach. The two have nothing to do with one another. And yes in fact your stomach does have acid in it 24 hours a day. As far as literature, just pick up any copy of human or veterinary anatomy or physiology book. Any will do. If you need me to give you the name of a particular book, I can do that.

Your opinion is valuable and I think I can speak for Quig that he appreciates it, but I think when you start telling a hognose breeder how to keep hognose snakes and you start telling a Dr. about the anatomy and physiology of an animal, you are in over your head. Doesn't really bother me, I deal with it all the time, but being condescending to Jenea when you admit you have no personal experience with the species and possibly misleading Quig, I think you have gone a little too far.

I think I owe an apology also. Directly to Gregg. And also to Quig for wasting your post.

I don't think it's a waste of a post in any way, shape, or form. Everybody has differing ways of doing things and different things work for different people. Always nice to have a few different things to try, as long as there is no risk to the health of said animal.

I'll use Gregg's moist hide for an example...
I keep them in everything. Including all the kings, including all the greybands. Also never have had a respiratory problem. I also keep water dishes in with them all the time, not giving them water once a week, as several people say is the only way to keep them healthy. That being said... I live in Mn. For a couple of months in the summer it's hot and humid, may as well be in Florida. The rest of the time? Dry as hell. Horrible dry, accidentally drag a foot on the carpet and zap your kids when you touch them dry. We're talking the kind of dry where no matter how much gunk you put in your hair it always looks like you're holding one of those static balls... So I give everybody somewhere to go to get some moisture. Should Jenea do that living in Florida if she always has 60% humidity or better instead of negative (haha)? Up to her to see how they do for her. Should I tell her she has to because I do because it works for my animals? Nope. Different environments.

Just my two cents for what they are worth... which isn't even a penny candy anymore.

Where did you go to medical school brother?.
Never did... Not interested in dealing with sick people or animals on a daily basis... Highly respect people who do though...

Ever open up a dead animal that has no food in it's stomach??.

More than I care to admit...

Did you find stomach acid in there?
Mammal yes, reptile, no...

And yes in fact your stomach does have acid in it 24 hours a day..
Fast metabolizing, warm blooded animals, yes, I agree... Reptiles, not so much...

As far as literature, just pick up any copy of human or veterinary anatomy or physiology book. Any will do. If you need me to give you the name of a particular book, I can do that.
Or, you can cut, paste, and site the literature and prove me wrong right here...

Your opinion is valuable and I think I can speak for Quig that he appreciates it, but I think when you start telling a hognose breeder how to keep hognose snakes and you start telling a Dr. about the anatomy and physiology of an animal, you are in over your head.Well, I am a hognose keeper and breeder, I keep and breed close to 30 different species at this point in time... This is not my first rodeo... And what, you being a doctor means you cant be wrong??? Thats a joke in and of itself... Not saying you have no clue... You seem knowledgeable... I just hate when people pull cards like that... A simple quote of literature pretaining to reptiles and their digestive system will be a good thing at this point... If I am wrong, I will eat it and be on with it...

Doesn't really bother me, I deal with it all the time, but being condescending to Jenea when you admit you have no personal experience with the species and possibly misleading Quig, I think you have gone a little too far.
So, I was being condescending how exactly??? By offering information that makes sense with something behind it other than "because I said so"?

What was so misleading about what I offered up??? Offering a reptile option rather than leaving it a room temperature is bad advice??? Where is the logic in that???

I think I owe an apology also. Directly to Gregg. And also to Quig for wasting your post.

This is how ideas get flowing and how we progress in this hobby... No need to aplogize... I dont mind a bit of head banging once in a while...

OK. this is my last post in this thread. I think I see part of your problem Cut and paste what exactly? You keep talking about old school way of thinking. Guess where that comes from. Internet misinformation. The old school way of thinking is not the problem, the problem is to think that you can find the right answer to everything on the net. Don't be so presumptuous to think just because you can read, you have found the right answer to everything. Not that there is no good info on the web, but what medical textbook exactly do you want me to cut and paste from on the internet? Medical textbooks costs hundreds of dollars, they don't put those on the web for free. Like I said, if you are serious about the books, PM me and I'll point you to the books. You'll have to buy them though (or borrow them from someone). You won't find them on the web for free.
I'll just say this. I am making the statements I am making based on the fact that I've been through medical school. That in and of itself means something. Does it mean that I'm never wrong? No. But you are asking for literature. Why does the Dr. have to come up with literature to back up what he says and the person who has admittedly zero medical background just get to make his claims with nothing to back it up? Not even the medical school background. You cut and paste the info.
If you don't believe it, ok with me. If you really want to learn something and not just try to prove you are right, then go look it up.

OK. this is my last post in this thread. I think I see part of your problem Cut and paste what exactly? You keep talking about old school way of thinking. Guess where that comes from. Internet misinformation. The old school way of thinking is not the problem, the problem is to think that you can find the right answer to everything on the net. Don't be so presumptuous to think just because you can read, you have found the right answer to everything. Not that there is no good info on the web, but what medical textbook exactly do you want me to cut and paste from on the internet? Medical textbooks costs hundreds of dollars, they don't put those on the web for free. Like I said, if you are serious about the books, PM me and I'll point you to the books. You'll have to buy them though (or borrow them from someone). You won't find them on the web for free.
I'll just say this. I am making the statements I am making based on the fact that I've been through medical school. That in and of itself means something. Does it mean that I'm never wrong? No. But you are asking for literature. Why does the Dr. have to come up with literature to back up what he says and the person who has admittedly zero medical background just get to make his claims with nothing to back it up? Not even the medical school background. You cut and paste the info.
If you don't believe it, ok with me. If you really want to learn something and not just try to prove you are right, then go look it up.

:yes: I think I would trust the man with the phd (who also owns reptiles himself) over the the hobbyist breeder like you Gregg.
Gregg if you want to continue to argue, make a new thread. If not, knock it off. I am sick and tired of you destroying threads with your know it all attitude towards the members here. This is your last warning. This thread was started to help a member here, not help to stroke your ego.

This is how ideas get flowing and how we progress in this hobby... No need to aplogize... I dont mind a bit of head banging once in a while...

Gregg, it's the head bangin' I don't need right now. You wanna do it, do it somewhere else.

edit

You do not need medical school under your belt to have a clue...


That's true Gregg, but you're constantly asking people for "proof" of some kind for what they say, but never offer any up yourself for anything you say except that it's info you've gleaned from other keepers or your own experience,. That in itself is no different than what you critisize Jenea for. So that makes you no better, correct?

That's true Gregg, but you're constantly asking people for "proof" of some kind for what they say, but never offer any up yourself for anything you say except that it's info you've gleaned from other keepers or your own experience,. That in itself is no different than what you critisize Jenea for. So that makes you no better, correct?

Last post here as I dont want to continue to "crap up" your thread Quig... This is out of respect for you and nothing else...

You are 100% right... I am done on this thread... Take my info or throw it in the trash...

This has all been a learning experience for me... No more info from me or my experience or my friends experiences... I will just post pics, and say Ooooh and Ahhh when others post pics...

Last post here as I dont want to continue to "crap up" your thread Quig... This is out of respect for you and nothing else...

You are 100% right... I am done on this thread... Take my info or throw it in the trash...

This has all been a learning experience for me... No more info from me or my experience or my friends experiences...

Thanks.

Can somebody lock this thread. I DON'T want it to turn into a 'let's beat this dead horse' for another 3 or 4 pages. Let it be.

Can somebody lock this thread. I DON'T want it to turn into a 'let's beat this dead horse' for another 3 or 4 pages. Let it be.

No this will get back on topic and the next person to post off topic will get an infraction.


Now back to your regularly scheduled program. :yes: