So rumor has it Ozzy is offering his newly produced banana males for 30k a piece. I have been waiting for the first drop in the banana market to take place this year. I mean really, Brock is pumping out the males, plus Chun, John at albinos unlimited with multiple males and females including one male thats most likely a super and some kid in CA, I believe his name is Keo (?) , Micheal Powell and not to mention Brocks friends within his inner circle he off loaded males too early on, Brad Boa and others. On top of that NERD has a TON of females ( that produce males) and males that produce males!!! Not to mention everyone else who has them that we don’t know about. What about the male TSK produced? How many more males is that producing? Not to mention tri stripe bananas maybe even tri stripe banana males!! Now throw into this giant mix of males that most of these people dont like each other. Things can get ulgly pretty quick. Rumor has it there are so many males that these breeders don’t know what to do with them. I know a few have sold but theres not enough people with 50k to match the amount of males produced and most likely the same goes for females at 10k or so. Guess some one had to be the first to under cut the market. No wonder Ozzy is cutting the price down. Cant keep a market over inflated for ever, but how do you feel if your one of the guy who already paid 50k? They will most likely make their money back and then some( which is why you invest in the first place ) That is, unless Ozzy chops it another 40% or more next year.
:lmao::devil:

Strong first post brah

Should be an interesting thread.

Gonna have to drop a bunch more for my scrawny wallet. :lmao:

This is just my opinion (which some may not like) however, I will post it anyway :) . . . I feel that an animal that can, and has sold for 50k, is worth just that. I think that in order to keep this one of those "really high end" genes, that we need to keep the price where it was, at least for a while. However, with that being said, business is business, and you cannot fault someone who is willing to drop the price in order to sell his product. He is doing what all major busines has done since the beginning of time, dropping the price to sell. Now he will sell his, and make his profit. This being said, it is also hurting the business in a way due to lowering the value of an animal that should be selling for more. Other business will either drop their price to match the competetor, or they will keep their price to maintane the true value of this animal. But the people buying the animal for 20k less than normal are also partly to blame for the price drop on these morphs, because they want a deal, this in turn forces everyone else to drop prices in order to sell what they do have. I don't know if my post makes sense...lol...but i am just throwing in my ten cents. . . either way, i can't afford one yet, but I really really would love to have one :)

I think we need an IP check against a dozen or so banned names I can think of.

I think we need an IP check against a dozen or so banned names I can think of.

Country: United States
State/Region: Michigan
City: Bath

ISP: Sprint PCS
Organization: Sprint PCS
Services: None detected

:cheers:

I smell something....

:lmao: No kidding! Strong first post brah

Ultimately the price will come down. I mean how many people are selling a lot for that price. I am surprised it has not come down faster.

Dan

This whole thing cracks me up with the big boy egos. You guys only get to set the price once. After that, the animals are worth what people are willing to pay for them. Period. The notion that a seller's set price dictates what an animal is worth is ridiculous.

Wow, This is going to get good.....

get your pop corn out...

come on- does that really surprise someone?

after ozzy posted his results it was clear that the price will drop.

I think its pretty obvious that the banana market has been manipulated from the beginning. This notion that males are hard to make is now being exposed for what it is and as a result the price I going to take a hit.

Ball pythons are great but this is just one more incidence of the behind the scenes bullshit that can really turn people off to the market in general.

I mean seriously, how many ball pythons "scandals" are we going to have? Its clear that when big money is involved honestly tends to be the first casualty.

Nick

I think its pretty obvious that the banana market has been manipulated from the beginning. This notion that males are hard to make is now being exposed for what it is and as a result the price I going to take a hit.

Ball pythons are great but this is just one more incidence of the behind the scenes bullshit that can really turn people off to the market in general.

I mean seriously, how many ball pythons "scandals" are we going to have? Its clear that when big money is involved honestly tends to be the first casualty.

Nick
I think it proves they know exactly what I said in my last post. They know they only get to set the price once. After that they are only worth what people will pay. They sometimes purposely manipulate prices to try to maintain the control they don't really have. Other times, they just run with perceived issues that create a buzz. Either way, at the end of the day, the animals are worth what people will pay.

next scandal is probably that males produce males in normal ratios:rolleyes:

next scandal is probably that males produce males in normal ratios:rolleyes:

I have no doubt that they do.

Eventually the truth always comes out.

next scandal is probably that males produce males in normal ratios:rolleyes:


What about males in high ratios ? I heard a leetle rumor that these
F2 males are leetle male factories. But seeing as how the sex linked
theory is crap it does really matter if it's an F2. It means all male
bananas produce just fine. But when the F2s went out and every one
started hitting these males they had to say something to cover their
asses. Either way, now that Ozzy has a male to breed we'll all be able
to afford em next year lol

:rebel:

What about males in high ratios ? I heard a leetle rumor that these
F2 males are leetle male factories. But seeing as how the sex linked
theory is crap it does really matter if it's an F2. It means all male
bananas produce just fine. But when the F2s went out and every one
started hitting these males they had to say something to cover their
asses. Either way, now that Ozzy has a male to breed we'll all be able
to afford em next year lol

:rebel:

Neil is in the house. Horray! Man you always drop in and hit home runs.

The fox is in the chicken coop folks!

Good info though :yes:

kinda funny how many views this ost got, yet not many comments!! hmmmm afraid of the truth????:lmao:

kinda funny how many views this ost got, yet not many comments!! hmmmm afraid of the truth????:lmao:

Nope, just not personally into ball pythons and couldn't give two shits about the pricing. But have contributed to the views, only to see if all hell was going to break loose like people were saying. Thus far I haven't seen it.:dunno::cheers:

kinda funny how many views this ost got, yet not many comments!! hmmmm afraid of the truth????:lmao:

Sorry, just interested in what's being said. Don't come anywhere close to ever owning one of those, but they are pretty.:yes:

I want to hear more from those in the know.

kinda funny how many views this ost got, yet not many comments!! hmmmm afraid of the truth????:lmao:

Not many with a dog in this fight. Not having the desired effect?

I want to hear more from those in the know.

Those in the know don't want you to hear.

Those in the know don't want you to hear.

:yes:

Gonna have to drop a bunch more for my scrawny wallet. :lmao:

Amen! :lmao:

I don't have a dog in this fight, but when people operate solely out of rumors and it flies in the face of guys like Oz, and challenges his integrity- that's when I'll step in and say something. I don't want to speak for Oz, but he had told me about this rumor (that he was selling banana males for much less) way before I knew this thread existed. It's all part of the game and some people just can't live without drama.
As for this thread...I honestly forget this section is down here and it wasn't until a friend pointed it out that I became aware of it. Others may be in the same position and may not be intentionally avoiding this discussion, but then again, maybe some are -I don't know.
(I did let him know it was here just in case he didn't see it)
Like I said, the only reason I'm posting is because the rumor about Oz is not accurate. Anything else that's going on with the bananas is not for me to say.
John

I don't have a dog in this fight, but when people operate solely out of rumors and it flies in the face of guys like Oz, and challenges his integrity- that's when I'll step in and say something. I don't want to speak for Oz, but he had told me about this rumor (that he was selling banana males for much less) way before I knew this thread existed. It's all part of the game and some people just can't live without drama.
As for this thread...I honestly forget this section is down here and it wasn't until a friend pointed it out that I became aware of it. Others may be in the same position and may not be intentionally avoiding this discussion, but then again, maybe some are -I don't know.
(I did let him know it was here just in case he didn't see it)
Like I said, the only reason I'm posting is because the rumor about Oz is not accurate. Anything else that's going on with the bananas is not for me to say.
John

:yes:

Oz is a stand up guy, all the way.... take those kinds of rumors for what they are, a grain of salt.... just remember, the person slinging the "I heard Oz is selling this or selling that or dropping this or rumor has it is that or whatever," doesn't even have the balls to post their name to it. :cheers:

:yes:

Oz is a stand up guy, all the way.... take those kinds of rumors for what they are, a grain of salt.... just remember, the person slinging the "I heard Oz is selling this or selling that or dropping this or rumor has it is that or whatever," doesn't even have the balls to post their name to it. :cheers:

I couldn't agree more Scott. If your going to sling it, you need to sign it.

I can't wait till this is put to rest..

Neil is in the house. Horray! Man you always drop in and hit home runs.

The fox is in the chicken coop folks!

Good info though :yes:

Actually, I don't think this Neil. Just someone pretending to be Neil.

Oz

There isn't one single banana for sale on kingsnake, so where are all the breeders flooding the market that can't sell them and the market crashing prices...........

lol at a 25000 dollar price tag being a market crasher.

IT'S 25000 DOLLARS PEOPLE! THAT IS MORE THAN MOST OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY MAKE IN A YEAR!

lol at a 25000 dollar price tag being a market crasher.

IT'S 25000 DOLLARS PEOPLE! THAT IS MORE THAN MOST OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY MAKE IN A YEAR!

I hear ya but that's like saying the house you just bought for $250,000 with your life savings is now only worth $100,000 because some smuck poorly planned and got deperate. Or a guy is willing to take half what you make at your position at work even though you are highly under paid so you get the ax. It's called undercutting and it creates a rapid downfall for every one mid to long term no matter what industry your in.

not only does this devalue the animale but also a persons time, efforts and resources. I'ts called stability and that in it's self explains every thing. The only people that think it's insane that these snakes are priced at $60,000 are people not in this industry and people who want one but can't afford one.

I hear ya but that's like saying the house you just bought for $250,000 with your life savings is now only worth $100,000 because some smuck poorly planned and got deperate. Or a guy is willing to take half what you make at your position at work even though you are highly under paid so you get the ax. It's called undercutting and it creates a rapid downfall for every one mid to long term no matter what industry your in.

not only does this devalue the animale but also a persons time, efforts and resources. I'ts called stability and that in it's self explains every thing. The only people that think it's insane that these snakes are priced at $60,000 are people not in this industry and people who want one but can't afford one.

That is NOT even close to the truth. IF and ONLY IF the snakes are NOT producing males on a a constant level then yes. IF they are throwing males in a normal rate and the info is wrong and or has been "skewed" then the price does NOT reflect the value of the snake, but rather the value "believed" and this is also a reason for people NOT taking the PLUNGE into various morphs, ALL THE DRAMA associated with them. toffee, banana, desert jsut to name a few. :eek:

lol at a 25000 dollar price tag being a market crasher.

IT'S 25000 DOLLARS PEOPLE! THAT IS MORE THAN MOST OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY MAKE IN A YEAR!


Average household income for married couples was $74K in 2008 ( latest stat. I found). Still $25k is a large chunk of change.

I hear ya but that's like saying the house you just bought for $250,000 with your life savings is now only worth $100,000 because some smuck poorly planned and got deperate. Or a guy is willing to take half what you make at your position at work even though you are highly under paid so you get the ax. It's called undercutting and it creates a rapid downfall for every one mid to long term no matter what industry your in.

not only does this devalue the animale but also a persons time, efforts and resources. I'ts called stability and that in it's self explains every thing. The only people that think it's insane that these snakes are priced at $60,000 are people not in this industry and people who want one but can't afford one.

Here's the problem. I've said it already several times and noone seems to be listening. The animals are only worth what they are worth. Period. Even if Oz was selling his animals for 25K, which he said he wasn't, he only has 3. After that what do people do who want one? They have to go find them somewhere else. What if there are only 3 people who are willing to pay that much? Then they are overpriced. If they are really worth 60k, then everyone who has them will sell them for that. If someone else is willing to sell them for 25k and there are no more buyers at 60k, then they are only worth 25k. You can't keep claiming an animal is worth more just because you want it to be. If people are paying 60k, then they are worth it. If they are not, then they aren't. The real gist of this thread was whether or not there were lies told to create a FALSE impression that these animals were worth more than they actually were.
Bottom line. Oz sold his animals for what he sold them for. Period. What he sold them for is really only between he and his customers unless they want to publish it, which he did. If there are more people out there that want banana males, then Oz has no more for sale. They'll have to go to Brock or someone else and pay their price. If noone wants to pay their price, then the animals are overpriced. It's simple supply and demand.
And to the job market, that has 0 to do with this. What you are talking about now is a employee/employer loyalty issue. I have people coming to me all the time willing to work for less than what I pay my employees, but I don't fire my current employees to hire the less expensive ones. What does that have to do with the cost of a new commodity?

I hear ya but that's like saying the house you just bought for $250,000 with your life savings is now only worth $100,000 because some smuck poorly planned and got deperate. Or a guy is willing to take half what you make at your position at work even though you are highly under paid so you get the ax. It's called undercutting and it creates a rapid downfall for every one mid to long term no matter what industry your in.

not only does this devalue the animale but also a persons time, efforts and resources. I'ts called stability and that in it's self explains every thing. The only people that think it's insane that these snakes are priced at $60,000 are people not in this industry and people who want one but can't afford one.


First of all, these are reproducing animals, not homes. My house cannot produce more houses every year that i can sell and quadruple my investement every year.

Second of all, these are reproducing animals, not someone hit hard by the economy and willing to do your job for less...nevermind, that argument is so retarded i can't even think of an analogy.

As far as undercutting, that is the American way man! Who can provide the same service/product for the least amount of money. Snakes are not exempt from this. It's a business!

As far as stability goes, you got into the wrong business if you were after stability.

and yes 60,000 dollars for a snake is absurd, unless you are ready to take a hit when the market for that gene inevitably crashes. especially when you are talking about a co-dominant gene. that can be reproduced in mass inside of a year. (the whole male/female ratio brewhaha aside).

Average household income for married couples was $74K in 2008 ( latest stat. I found). Still $25k is a large chunk of change.

Still only a 37000 per person. point still stands.

That is NOT even close to the truth. IF and ONLY IF the snakes are NOT producing males on a a constant level then yes. IF they are throwing males in a normal rate and the info is wrong and or has been "skewed" then the price does NOT reflect the value of the snake, but rather the value "believed" and this is also a reason for people NOT taking the PLUNGE into various morphs, ALL THE DRAMA associated with them. toffee, banana, desert jsut to name a few. :eek:

Im not sure what your disagreement with me is but what I said is TRUE...

For one thing i'm not bashing OZ or saying he did any thing wrong so get over that BS. Hell I just pm'd OZ about getting and Orange Dream Fire from him.

Wow so it's not market crashing it's take what ever some one is willling to give you at that moment. lol. so let me get this right The market is at $60,000 for an animal and

Person(s) A. sells them at $55,000 to $60,000

Person(s) B. Sells them at $20,000 to $30,000

Person B would not be crashing the market?

First of all, these are reproducing animals, not homes. My house cannot produce more houses every year that i can sell and quadruple my investement every year.

Second of all, these are reproducing animals, not someone hit hard by the economy and willing to do your job for less...nevermind, that argument is so retarded i can't even think of an analogy.

As far as undercutting, that is the American way man! Who can provide the same service/product for the least amount of money. Snakes are not exempt from this. It's a business!

As far as stability goes, you got into the wrong business if you were after stability.

and yes 60,000 dollars for a snake is absurd, unless you are ready to take a hit when the market for that gene inevitably crashes. especially when you are talking about a co-dominant gene. that can be reproduced in mass inside of a year. (the whole male/female ratio brewhaha aside).



Still only a 37000 per person. point still stands.

You are obviously new to the Bush-League. You sound as if you're part of the "fish tank and heat rock crowd" that frequents some of the other boards...

First of all, these are reproducing animals, not homes. My house cannot produce more houses every year that i can sell and quadruple my investement every year.

Second of all, these are reproducing animals, not someone hit hard by the economy and willing to do your job for less...nevermind, that argument is so retarded i can't even think of an analogy.

As far as undercutting, that is the American way man! Who can provide the same service/product for the least amount of money. Snakes are not exempt from this. It's a business!

As far as stability goes, you got into the wrong business if you were after stability.

and yes 60,000 dollars for a snake is absurd, unless you are ready to take a hit when the market for that gene inevitably crashes. especially when you are talking about a co-dominant gene. that can be reproduced in mass inside of a year. (the whole male/female ratio brewhaha aside).



Still only a 37000 per person. point still stands.


I'm Talking about undercutting and market crashing

The american way? No wonder why America is in such bad shape.

How about we all just get together and have a beer? lol

So there is no problem with producing males with Banana's? Whats all the fuss about then?

For one thing i'm not bashing OZ or saying he did any thing wrong so get over that BS. Hell I just pm'd OZ about getting and Orange Dream Fire from him.

Wow so it's not market crashing it's take what ever some one is willling to give you at that moment. lol. so let me get this right The market is at $60,000 for an animal and

Person(s) A. sells them at $55,000 to $60,000

Person(s) B. Sells them at $20,000 to $30,000

Person B would not be crashing the market?

I don't think person B is crashing the market. I think person be is the first person to accept that the market for that animal is changing. Now if this was a first or second generation move I could see it as crashing the market. but Banana's aren't exactly a new kid on the block and co-dom to boot.

You are obviously new to the Bush-League. You sound as if you're part of the "fish tank and heat rock crowd" that frequents some of the other boards...

This is a pretty disappointing comment, coming from one of the head honchos of this board.

For starters you can drop the smart ass gig.

It's obvious I have only been a member for a couple months, says so next to my name.

It makes you look stupid you insult my knowledge of snake husbandry because you disagree with my view on the economics involved with a fluctuating market or the tactics used by persons involved.

I don't think person B is crashing the market. I think person be is the first person to accept that the market for that animal is changing. Now if this was a first or second generation move I could see it as crashing the market. but Banana's aren't exactly a new kid on the block and co-dom to boot.



This is a pretty disappointing comment, coming from one of the head honchos of this board.

For starters you can drop the smart ass gig.

It's obvious I have only been a member for a couple months, says so next to my name.

It makes you look stupid you insult my knowledge of snake husbandry because you disagree with my view on the economics involved with a fluctuating market or the tactics used by persons involved.

:eek:

I'm Talking about undercutting and market crashing

The american way? No wonder why America is in such bad shape.

How about we all just get together and have a beer? lol

So there is no problem with producing males with Banana's? Whats all the fuss about then?

Undercutting is the foundation of the current American business model. Wal-mart didn't become wal-mart by not finding ways to undercut the competition.

to me undercutting and market crashing are not the same thing.

Undercutting is making your price better than your competitions to increase your business and ultimately your profits.

Market crashing is making the market volatile for everyone involved.

If person A buys a snake, with the intention of breeding it and selling its offspring, from person B, persons A and B become competitors in the market at the moment of their transaction. There seems to be this thought in reptile breeding that no one is competing to sell animals. You are not on the same team. There is no profit sharing. If someone doesn't want to hold onto a snake for 4 years because they won't come off of a 60000 dollar price tag by 15 or 20 grand, then that is their business. But if someone is out to make money (this is a business) then who is anyone else to judge their business practices when it increases their bottom line and still maintains a viable market for other people.

:eek:

just because someone started a forum, doesn't give them the right to berate the people you use it because they disagree.

oopsie

just because someone started a forum, doesn't give them the right to berate the people you use it because they disagree.

:cool:

Just to be clear, i don't have a dog in this fight, nor will I ever.

I also wouldn't buy that snake if it dropped to 50 bucks tomorrow. I breed for the experience. I have no dreams of making a living doing this. My offspring will go to the Local shop in trade for rats and mice, or trades for other cool animals

And if they do get sold, they will be sold at a nearby show for 10-15% less than anyone else selling the same types of animals.

nor will I ever.

I also wouldn't buy that snake if it dropped to 50 bucks tomorrow.

Who cares if you would or wouldn't :dunno:

Im not sure what your disagreement with me is but what I said is TRUE...

Who says your right ? The people who have set the price were the ONLY ones producing any of the animals. NOW, people are producing them as ALL the females are now of age and producing.

My point is that people who are know producing these seem to be seeing a difference in the odds on males being produced then as first thought. So they can set the price to what they see fit.

Also, Oz was on here about the 20k rumor and already addressed it. So, if YOU feel you are doing the industry a favor, then go ahead and pay $60k for your male nana.

just because someone started a forum, doesn't give them the right to berate the people you use it because they disagree.

I can tell you what right it does give him............

Who cares if you would or wouldn't :dunno:

i haven't a clue. how many people in this thread are an active participant in the banana market?

I can tell you what right it does give them............

yeah he can ban me. If people can't have differing opinions here, without being harassed by the proprietor, than this isn't the place I thought it was.

i haven't a clue. how many people in this thread are an active participant in the banana market?

Would be very hard to determine....

yeah he can ban me. If people can't have differing opinions here, without being harassed by the proprietor, than this isn't the place I thought it was.

Harassed?...Really?

yeah he can ban me. If people can't have differing opinions here, without being harassed by the proprietor, than this isn't the place I thought it was.

I'd say that's a far cry from being harassed:yes:

okay. to strong a word.

Insulted. disrespected. affronted.

those fit. and are still unflattering, imo. pretty childish.

Who says your right ? The people who have set the price were the ONLY ones producing any of the animals. NOW, people are producing them as ALL the females are now of age and producing.

My point is that people who are know producing these seem to be seeing a difference in the odds on males being produced then as first thought. So they can set the price to what they see fit.

Also, Oz was on here about the 20k rumor and already addressed it. So, if YOU feel you are doing the industry a favor, then go ahead and pay $60k for your male nana.

once again what I am saying is not about OZ:nono:

Would be very hard to determine....



Harassed?...Really?

i bet we could safely say 10% max. in this thread have put their 60k into the pot. if we were betting.

As far as undercutting, that is the American way man! Who can provide the same service/product for the least amount of money. Snakes are not exempt from this. It's a business! .


I think most all here have a different concept of how we see ' The American Way ' . Serious stuff .
This is the Bush League !:rockon::yessir:

There is nothing bush league about 60,000 dollar snakes.

okay. to strong a word.

Insulted. disrespected. affronted.

those fit. and are still unflattering, imo. pretty childish.

Im. going. to take. my ball. and go. home.

okay. to strong a word.

Insulted. disrespected. affronted.

those fit. and are still unflattering, imo. pretty childish.

um I get that impression from you.
If you don't have a horse in this race and could care less about this animal and are only willing to trade your animals for rodents why are you in this race?

Just sayin:dunno:

defend your boy. i get it.

response was to the person who said " :eek: " to how I responded to him. I was must making the point that there is no reason for me to respect someone who doesn't respect me. especially the "bossman"

There is nothing bush league about 60,000 dollar snakes.
You are missing the point ....

um I get that impression from you.
If you don't have a horse in this race and could care less about this animal and are only willing to trade your animals for rodents why are you in this race?

Just sayin:dunno:

same as everyone else, i am putting my opinion in a thread on a board that i am a member of, in which other members are putting forth their opinions. members who also don't have any involvement other than internet speculation and back patting.

You are missing the point ....

no i am not. I don't think you know the definition/connotation of "bush league".

There is nothing bush league about 60,000 dollar snakes.

Why, cause you say so?

A business selling a product at 60K seems to piss you off and I think that is more where we are at here.... it's an absurd price, simply because you say so.

You don't like the fact something is priced out of your league, it's out of mine too.... way out, but I ain't gunna start promoting a flea market selling mentality towards things because I don't like it.... take whatever comes your way crap. Everything would be worth nothing if this attitude prevailed.

same as everyone else, i am putting my opinion in a thread on a board that i am a member of, in which other members are putting forth their opinions. members who also don't have any involvement other than internet speculation and back patting.

ok :yes:

You are missing the point ....

Clearly!

no i am not. I don't think you know the definition/connotation of "bush league".

I don't think you understand much of this site or the business....

i haven't a clue. how many people in this thread are an active participant in the banana market?

I have a couple of banana girls. If I had $60k to spend on a male I would be getting myself one :)

An animal is worth what ever someone is willing to spend on it. Doesn't matter if anybody thinks that is to high, that is just the way it is.

Why, cause you say so?

A business selling a product at 60K seems to piss you off and I think that is more where we are at here.... it's an absurd price, simply because you say so.

You don't like the fact something is priced out of your league, it's out of mine too.... way out, but I ain't gunna start promoting a flea market selling mentality towards things because I don't like it.... take whatever comes your way crap. Everything would be worth nothing if this attitude prevailed.


No it doesn't piss me off. none of this pisses me off (well except for ol' larry here insulting me because i don't agree). I don't get mad because I can't afford a mercedes. I don't get mad at people who do buy them. or 10 of them.

Do i think it is absurd to spend 60k on a car. yeah because if i wait 5 years i can get that car at half price all day long. but so what. IT'S AN OPINION. I just don't think a 30k price drop on a 60k snake is a market crasher. because it's not. It's just a change in the market. (obviously we are not talking about the original subject of this thread anymore, since that was resolved) And yet the market remains viable. look at any other morph, especially co-dom morphs. The real market stabilizer is going to be in the combo animals that come from it. that is where the money is. a single gene animal just cant be expected to hold such a high price tag for that long. And there is nothing wrong with setting a lower price than the competition. It's how businesses work.

And in the end, somebody has to foot the bill. whether it be the 4th investor or the 50th investor, someone is going to be left holding the bag after they dumped a ton of money into something and the market adjusts.

no i am not.

Yes you missed my point .

no i am not. I don't think you know the definition/connotation of "bush league".

I hate it for you man .

Yes you missed my point .

then i would like to know your point.

you said we had differing views on "the american way"

and that this was the bush league.

What did i miss.

note: not being an ass, i want to know.

No it doesn't piss me off. none of this pisses me off (well except for ol' larry here insulting me because i don't agree). I don't get mad because I can't afford a mercedes. I don't get mad at people who do buy them. or 10 of them.

Do i think it is absurd to spend 60k on a car. yeah because if i wait 5 years i can get that car at half price all day long. but so what. IT'S AN OPINION. I just don't think a 30k price drop on a 60k snake is a market crasher. because it's not. It's just a change in the market. (obviously we are not talking about the original subject of this thread anymore, since that was resolved) And yet the market remains viable. look at any other morph, especially co-dom morphs. The real market stabilizer is going to be in the combo animals that come from it. that is where the money is. a single gene animal just cant be expected to hold such a high price tag for that long. And there is nothing wrong with setting a lower price than the competition. It's how businesses work.

And in the end, somebody has to foot the bill. whether it be the 4th investor or the 50th investor, someone is going to be left holding the bag after they dumped a ton of money into something and the market adjusts.

You just don't get how it works. Look at it like the Pirates code!!! lol Stick to the code. no market crashing.

That's the bush league way

Well , I will try to make a simple statement . It is generally frowned upon strongly here to operate in the manner you state... by trying to make money, justifying undercutting market price to beat out the next guy . That will undermine the market or crash it . There are more important concepts that offer respect to fellow breeders and the market itself . Right now the market is on the rise and although some of the questionable marketing practices survive for a season...they will be uncovered..eventually . Better to selectively breed and conduct yourself in an ethical manner ....respectful manner .
To me the people who buy and then try to make the sales by undercutting market prices are the scum of this business . business means a lot more than making a sale . You gotta stand for something . Maybe I misunderstood your words but I dont think so .
You really don't want to be that guy and try to be a viable member of this forum imo . It won't work out well for you . Maybe you could take a little time and read through the Industry Watchdog section to get a better feel for this forum and what we stand for . Maybe then you could understand the general consensus here and understand the posts subsequent to your statements and why they didn't go over well . As for ''harassment ''...consider yourself lucky you didn't get run out of town already . The words are fighting words .....around here .

Well , I will try to make a simple statement . It is generally frowned upon strongly here to operate in the manner you state... by trying to make money, justifying undercutting market price to beat out the next guy . That will undermine the market or crash it . There are more important concepts that offer respect to fellow breeders and the market itself . Right now the market is on the rise and although some of the questionable marketing practices survive for a season...they will be uncovered..eventually . Better to selectively breed and conduct yourself in an ethical manner ....respectful manner .
To me the people who buy and then try to make the sales by undercutting market prices are the scum of this business . business means a lot more than making a sale . You gotta stand for something . Maybe I misunderstood your words but I dont think so .
You really don't want to be that guy and try to be a viable member of this forum imo . It won't work out well for you . Maybe you could take a little time and read through the Industry Watchdog section to get a better feel for this forum and what we stand for . Maybe then you could understand the general consensus here and understand the posts subsequent to your statements and why they didn't go over well . As for ''harassment ''...consider yourself lucky you didn't get run out of town already . The words are fighting words .....around here .

:cheers:

That pretty much sums it up.

Well , I will try to make a simple statement . It is generally frowned upon strongly here to operate in the manner you state... by trying to make money, justifying undercutting market price to beat out the next guy . That will undermine the market or crash it . There are more important concepts that offer respect to fellow breeders and the market itself . Right now the market is on the rise and although some of the questionable marketing practices survive for a season...they will be uncovered..eventually . Better to selectively breed and conduct yourself in an ethical manner ....respectful manner .
To me the people who buy and then try to make the sales by undercutting market prices are the scum of this business . business means a lot more than making a sale . You gotta stand for something . Maybe I misunderstood your words but I dont think so .
You really don't want to be that guy and try to be a viable member of this forum imo . It won't work out well for you . Maybe you could take a little time and read through the Industry Watchdog section to get a better feel for this forum and what we stand for . Maybe then you could understand the general consensus here and understand the posts subsequent to your statements and why they didn't go over well . As for ''harassment ''...consider yourself lucky you didn't get run out of town already . The words are fighting words .....around here .

:cheers:

And if they do get sold, they will be sold at a nearby show for 10-15% less than anyone else selling the same types of animals.

Nuff said....

The Bush-league Breeders Club was founded on principles of supporting captive breeders and this industry as a whole. Sure we may bicker back and fourth regarding market fluctuation in various projects throughout the reptile industry, but all in all, we as captive breeders, do, or at least should support each other.

What I'm seeing from "some" of the newer up and coming wannabee breeders aka the "fish tank and heat rock crowd" is a different mentality that doesn't sync with the mentality of the hardcore enthusiast which the Bush-League wishes to attract.

That being said, the BLBC isn't for everyone...

Didn't Oz state that he sold the male for $25k cash and $42k trade? Reading this thread it seems like people are overlooking the $42k he is receiving in trade as well...Just a bit confused as to why everyone is saying $20-30k drop?? Does trade value not count in the banana market???? $67k total is clearly not crashing the market....

Didn't Oz state that he sold the male for $25k cash and $42k trade? Reading this thread it seems like people are overlooking the $42k he is receiving in trade as well...Just a bit confused as to why everyone is saying $20-30k drop?? Does trade value not count in the banana market???? $67k total is clearly not crashing the market....

Don't want to speak for everyone Tom, but I'm pretty sure this thread left off being about Oz a long time ago.

Didn't Oz state that he sold the male for $25k cash and $42k trade? Reading this thread it seems like people are overlooking the $42k he is receiving in trade as well...Just a bit confused as to why everyone is saying $20-30k drop?? Does trade value not count in the banana market???? $67k total is clearly not crashing the market....

your right. Set OZ asside who I have no issue with and think highly of. a member on here is posting that it is ok to sell the snakes for half the price and crash the market beacause in his mind it's the American way and it's smart/competitive business. I hope people see the light when all is said done and can repair some of what is broken.

your right. Set OZ asside who I have no issue with and think highly of. a member on here is posting that it is ok to sell the snakes for half the price and crash the market beacause in his mind it's the American way and it's smart/competitive business. I hope people see the light when all is said done and can repair some of what is broken.

That is what it degenerated into....

Didn't Oz state that he sold the male for $25k cash and $42k trade? Reading this thread it seems like people are overlooking the $42k he is receiving in trade as well...Just a bit confused as to why everyone is saying $20-30k drop?? Does trade value not count in the banana market???? $67k total is clearly not crashing the market....

Took the words right out of my mouth Tom.:cheers:

The Bush-league Breeders Club was founded on principles of supporting captive breeders and this industry as a whole. Sure we may bicker back and fourth regarding market fluctuation in various projects throughout the reptile industry, but all in all, we as captive breeders, do, or at least should support each other.

What I'm seeing from "some" of the newer up and coming wannabee breeders aka the "fish tank and heat rock crowd" is a different mentality that doesn't sync with the mentality of the hardcore enthusiast which the Bush-League wishes to attract.

That being said, the BLBC isn't for everyone...

Yep...:yes:

If you want a banana Kroger has them for $1.33 a lb

You sound as if you're part of the "fish tank and heat rock crowd" that frequents some of the other boards...

LMAO! :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it that day, period.

I would pay 60 grand all day long if I had the money regardless of the males/female ratio and all the bs about prices dropping etc. It's still an outrageous looking morph by itself let alone mixed in with other genes. And also if they ever did drop to 50 bucks you would not be able to produce enough for the demand

kinda funny how many views this ost got, yet not many comments!! hmmmm afraid of the truth????:lmao:

"Afraid of the truth" coming from a guy whose name is hidden. :yes:

Here ya go... http://brockwagnerreptiles.com/banana-genetics-and-banana-saga

very interesting...glad he was able to figure it out and share it with everyone

Here ya go... ttp://brockwagnerreptiles.com/banana-genetics-and-banana-saga

Wow I could not quote because it contained a URL and I only had 4 posts. That is nuts....

ANYWAY

I have been away from the reptile scene since 2005 and have only gotten back into it this year.

Everywhere I turn I see code words. "Others, someone, a certain person, you all know who, them, they, he whose name shall not be mentioned"

Yeah I am lost. I have no clue who to trust. Well actually I have a very short list of like 5 names.

I just had to vent. I came back to have some real fun and make a little money on the side. But mostly to share my passion with my children. My children who like the rats a little better than the snakes. But I come into all this back stabbing, lying, rumor mill, he said she said cr@p.

I thought we were all in this together? :dunno:

Wow I could not quote because it contained a URL and I only had 4 posts. That is nuts....

ANYWAY

I have been away from the reptile scene since 2005 and have only gotten back into it this year.

Everywhere I turn I see code words. "Others, someone, a certain person, you all know who, them, they, he whose name shall not be mentioned"

Yeah I am lost. I have no clue who to trust. Well actually I have a very short list of like 5 names.

I just had to vent. I came back to have some real fun and make a little money on the side. But mostly to share my passion with my children. My children who like the rats a little better than the snakes. But I come into all this back stabbing, lying, rumor mill, he said she said cr@p.

I thought we were all in this together? :dunno:

It's not all dark clouds and rain everyday.... there are plenty of people out there that make the hobby as great as it is. :cheers:

It's not all dark clouds and rain everyday.... there are plenty of people out there that make the hobby as great as it is. :cheers:

Agree :yes:

...Everywhere I turn I see code words. "Others, someone, a certain person, you all know who, them, they, he whose name shall not be mentioned"

Yeah I am lost. I have no clue who to trust. Well actually I have a very short list of like 5 names.


That's what people do now when they don't quiet have the balls to just say who they are talking about.It's everywhere.Not just in the BP community.That's partly why the drama keeps going and going and going..

At least you have 5 people you can trust.Most can't say that.

Good to see you that you have decided to come back into the hobby:cheers:

If you want a Banana,pay up and get a male:yessir:

kinda funny how many views this ost got, yet not many comments!! hmmmm afraid of the truth????:lmao:

wasn't this guy (BPOLOGIST)stated in another thread as being an alias on another forum of the recently banned boaguy76 AKA

Matt Tipton AKA:

Bryan Tipton
Bryan Lucas
Bryan T
BThompson
Luke Tipton
Lucas Tipton
mad max
Aelx Taulbee

Not sure if it's the same guy but it was stated that this was one of his aliases in this thread http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?t=32823&page=4 post #23

I haven't seen asplundii around for awhile, but can someone please explain to me how it is physically possible for a sex linked genetic trait to switch sexes from one generation to the next. It seems to me that if it's linked, it's linked. Seems physically impossible for this to be the explanation. There must be some other explanation. There is no doubt that we have definitely left the realm of "the simplest answer is usually the right answer."

Or maybe,the realm of telling the truth from all sides is what has left.....Wait!....Maybe it was never here..

If what Brock says in his blog is true(which I am assuming it is)

F1 males produce mainly females but the F2 male that is produced sires mainly males (F3's)

So now will any female thrown by an F2 Male throw mainly females??

what ratio will the F3 males produce ?

what is going to be the sex ratio between an F2 Male and a female banana pairing?

What sex ratio will a super banana produce?

will customers want/demand a price difference between F1,F2 and F3 males/females?

there are still many questions to be answered

If what Brock says in his blog is true(which I am assuming it is)

F1 males produce mainly females but the F2 male that is produced sires mainly males (F3's)

So now will any female thrown by an F2 Male throw mainly females??

what ratio will the F3 males produce ?

what is going to be the sex ratio between an F2 Male and a female banana pairing?

What sex ratio will a super banana produce?

will customers want/demand a price difference between F1,F2 and F3 males/females?

there are still many questions to be answered

I've wondered those exact same things. Plenty of questions to be answered still and hopefully as more and more people get their hands on bananas and breed them we'll get some more answers.

I know was skeptical of the whole sex linked thing a couple years ago and chalked up the weird ratios of no males and just females from a male banana/coral glow sire to "bad odds", due to the relatively small breeding population. Though as time went on and more and more clutches hatched, it became very apparent there was something going on.
Brock would hatch out a clutch and be very disappointed that he wouldn't hit on a male. He'd even hand me the tub of just hatched babies and I'd pop them and sure enough, all females.

Ideally I think I'd want a banana male that produced an even ratio of males and females. Perhaps an F3, F4, etc. might be able to?

I've wondered those exact same things. Plenty of questions to be answered still and hopefully as more and more people get their hands on bananas and breed them we'll get some more answers.

I know was skeptical of the whole sex linked thing a couple years ago and chalked up the weird ratios of no males and just females from a male banana/coral glow sire to "bad odds", due to the relatively small breeding population. Though as time went on and more and more clutches hatched, it became very apparent there was something going on.
Brock would hatch out a clutch and be very disappointed that he wouldn't hit on a male. He'd even hand me the tub of just hatched babies and I'd pop them and sure enough, all females.

Ideally I think I'd want a banana male that produced an even ratio of males and females. Perhaps an F3, F4, etc. might be able to?
Wait. Now we are predicting that F3 and F4 males are going to produce an even ratio of sexes? Why would we even want to make a guess at that? I may be the only one, and I cannot personally attest to the legitimacy of the claims, but the explanation seems physically impossible to me. Then to completely guess that it's going to switch every generation from now on seem silly to me. So when does it stop? Can we predict then that F7 males are going to only produce males again? If noone is going to release numbers (which I realize is their right, even if I don't understand it), then let's quit speculating all together. If they are going to release numbers, then let's figure it out.

Wait. Now we are predicting that F3 and F4 males are going to produce an even ratio of sexes? Why would we even want to make a guess at that? I may be the only one, and I cannot personally attest to the legitimacy of the claims, but the explanation seems physically impossible to me. Then to completely guess that it's going to switch every generation from now on seem silly to me. So when does it stop? Can we predict then that F7 males are going to only produce males again? If noone is going to release numbers (which I realize is their right, even if I don't understand it), then let's quit speculating all together. If they are going to release numbers, then let's figure it out.

I did NOT "predict" a single thing. It's a hypothetical statement and more wishful thinking than anything.

Don't compound matters by putting words into someone else's mouth.

I did NOT "predict" a single thing. It's a hypothetical statement and more wishful thinking than anything.

Don't compound matters by putting words into someone else's mouth.

The point is YOU are compounding things by even bringing it up. If they are not going to release the actual numbers of what they have done (and like I said, it's there right to do that) THEN STOP SPECULATING. You are the one who is compounding the problem. It is the speculation that is the problem to begin with.

It boils down to this...For better or worse,all of those that have had the Coral Glow/Banana gene's long enough to make such statements better circle the wagons.Numbers reveal the facts.Not a video,or blog,or whatever..There are a lot of people that are going to want numerical,or visual proof.

It boils down to this...For better or worse,all of those that have had the Coral Glow/Banana gene's long enough to make such statements better circle the wagons.Numbers reveal the facts.Not a video,or blog,or whatever..There are a lot of people that are going to want numerical,or visual proof.


Once more and more and people obtain bananas/coral glows and see for themselves what the genetics are, then more and more people will stop doubting.
No wagons need to be circled imho.

The point is YOU are compounding things by even bringing it up. If they are not going to release the actual numbers of what they have done (and like I said, it's there right to do that) THEN STOP SPECULATING. You are the one who is compounding the problem. It is the speculation that is the problem to begin with.


First I was "predicting", now you've down graded it to "speculating". I did NEITHER. Don't worry, to appease you, I will make no further comments.

First I was "predicting", now you've down graded it to "speculating". I did NEITHER. Don't worry, to appease you, I will make no further comments.

Appease me? Why would you do that? I'm nobody. I did use the word predict in the first post when that was probably too strong a word. I apologize for that. And you can patronize me if you want to, but so far you haven't even attempted to answer my original question. I was merely asking for any possible way that this explanation could be possible. How can a sex linked trait switch sexes from generation to generation? And where are all the people that jumped on me in the toffino thread that said the simplest explanation was usually the right explanation? Is there another example anywhere of anything having a sex linked genetic trait that switches sexes from generation to generation? If there is, someone please post a link so that I can read about it.

It'll be interesting in five years to see where this has gone. I mean, could this really be true, or is it just simply that the odds have worked towards the current theory of a sex linked gene and that they will even out as time progresses. In five years after many more bananas are produced and the odds of the sexes even out, we may all look back and laugh at the current theories. I don't believe the sample group is large enough to make any type of hypothesis, we need more time to see where this goes. Not to disagree with the current findings, so far this may be the case. But statistics and numbers can be funny like that.

I haven't seen asplundii around for awhile, but can someone please explain to me how it is physically possible for a sex linked genetic trait to switch sexes from one generation to the next. It seems to me that if it's linked, it's linked. Seems physically impossible for this to be the explanation. There must be some other explanation. There is no doubt that we have definitely left the realm of "the simplest answer is usually the right answer."

Not around as much as I would like Shane but I still get in now and then.:yes:

To answer your question: There is no known mechanism of genetic inheritance that behaves in the manner that is being described here. There are a couple things that are close that may come into play but I would need more data to play with and it just is not out there right now. Maybe in the future...

I do not think we have left the realm of Occam just yet though, I just think we are, collectively, still making this more complicated than it needs to be. I can say that the theory I had just went straight out the window. Glad I did not post it up any where LOL

I have also read Brock's blog from that link. I think it is great that he put out the info that is in there but I wholly disagree with his statement that enough breeding have been done for us to know what is going on. We need to see how progressive generations behave, there is no trend line yet.

I know I will be scratching my head for a bit on this though, when I have some free time to do it.

Not around as much as I would like Shane but I still get in now and then.:yes:

To answer your question: There is no known mechanism of genetic inheritance that behaves in the manner that is being described here. There are a couple things that are close that may come into play but I would need more data to play with and it just is not out there right now. Maybe in the future...

I do not think we have left the realm of Occam just yet though, I just think we are, collectively, still making this more complicated than it needs to be. I can say that the theory I had just went straight out the window. Glad I did not post it up any where LOL

I have also read Brock's blog from that link. I think it is great that he put out the info that is in there but I wholly disagree with his statement that enough breeding have been done for us to know what is going on. We need to see how progressive generations behave, there is no trend line yet.

I know I will be scratching my head for a bit on this though, when I have some free time to do it.
When you get this one figured out bro, I'm all ears.:yes:

It'll be interesting in five years to see where this has gone. I mean, could this really be true, or is it just simply that the odds have worked towards the current theory of a sex linked gene and that they will even out as time progresses. In five years after many more bananas are produced and the odds of the sexes even out, we may all look back and laugh at the current theories. I don't believe the sample group is large enough to make any type of hypothesis, we need more time to see where this goes. Not to disagree with the current findings, so far this may be the case. But statistics and numbers can be funny like that.

Agreeing with this statement 100% ... I wonder if it is just bad odds?

Like others have said ... no other phenomenon like this has occurred, and this is the simplest explanation ... bad odds.

Who knows... hope we figure it out soon though :)

I'm all ears.:yes:

next time you quote ross perot, please utilize quotation marks.
ck

next time you quote ross perot, please utilize quotation marks.
ck

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Agreeing with this statement 100% ... I wonder if it is just bad odds?

Like others have said ... no other phenomenon like this has occurred, and this is the simplest explanation ... bad odds.

Who knows... hope we figure it out soon though :)

I've seen enough with my own eyes to be 100% sure it's not just bad odds. How can it be odds when everyone that bred these has had all clutches come out with the CGs being girls and the non CGs being boys over and over again.
Then once in a blue moon a boy pops up.

I've seen enough with my own eyes to be 100% sure it's not just bad odds. How can it be odds when everyone that bred these has had all clutches come out with the CGs being girls and the non CGs being boys over and over again.
Then once in a blue moon a boy pops up.

Thats why I said it, because once in a blue moon, an unexplained boy pops up.

I'm not saying there is nothing behind it though, but it would just suck if it ends up being bad odds after all of this drama and discussion :)

I've seen enough with my own eyes to be 100% sure it's not just bad odds. How can it be odds when everyone that bred these has had all clutches come out with the CGs being girls and the non CGs being boys over and over again.
Then once in a blue moon a boy pops up.You are talking about banana males right? Because I thought the female bananas produced normally?

Oh heck I am getting all confused.

Perhaps I will revisit this subject when I can finally afford one. By then all this stuff should be straightened out.

Hopefully sooner than later.

Hey, you Filipino?

:wamma::wamma::wamma:

You are talking about banana males right? Because I thought the female bananas produced normally?

Oh heck I am getting all confused.

Perhaps I will revisit this subject when I can finally afford one. By then all this stuff should be straightened out.

Hopefully sooner than later.

Hey, you Filipino?

:wamma::wamma::wamma:

yes i was referring to males.
i'm actually from Dominican Republic (born in NY, raised in DR and now live in MA)