http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=101&de=884444

'Tails And More' selling WC red pigs. They are not even pretending they are CB. ...and one wonders why the F&G try and give every herper an anal exam in hyde or dare co they run into!

:dunno:

Sorry, but I am not sure I see the issue here... Can you elaborate on why this is an issue and why F&G would be giving other herpers a problem???

Sorry, but I am not sure I see the issue here... Can you elaborate on why this is an issue and why F&G would be giving other herpers a problem???

Because they are not legal to collect. This person is basically saying I am selling poached animals and F U to the game officials. I am a herper, I love nothing more than going out and seeing that I can find and photograph. Having to deal with the adversarial relationship with game officials every time one sees you in the field is no fun...and its crap like that fuels it. Try field herping in NC in red pigmy territory and even if all your taking is pictures, expect to run into game officials eventually and have a lot of your time wasted. Been there done that!

Look, I dont really have that big of an issue with someone taking a couple reds. I have seen enough to know they are more common in some areas than they are given credit. ...and 100000x as many are killed on the road as are ever collected. That said, posting WC animals of a protected species just makes herptoculture as a whole look bad. Why give more ammunition to be used against us. It also makes everyone working with established legitimate bloodlines of red pigs look suspect to F&G types.

Talk about being blatant.

ncwildlife.org/wildlife_species_con/documents/protected_species.pdf

The Carolina pygmy is only protected in North Carolina. They also range in South Carolina, Gerogia, and Alabama. Can you say for sure were these snakes were collected? They are very similar looking in Northern South Carolina where they are not protected.

The Carolina pygmy is only protected in North Carolina. They also range in South Carolina, Gerogia, and Alabama. Can you say for sure were these snakes were collected? They are very similar looking in Northern South Carolina where they are not protected.

Please...

Those snakes came form NC, I have zero and I mean zero doubt about it. The reds like those come from the north eastern part of the range. Please provide any evidence to the contrary?

If someone did locate a new mystery locality that was red outside of NC they would not be selling them for 180.00

I have heard of reds coming out of SC. Apparently there are also red populations in Georgia where they are not protected.

http://www.uga.edu/srelherp/snakes/sismil.htm

The Carolina pigmy rattler can be gray, tan, or lavender. Some specimens from northern Georgia and eastern North Carolina are orange or red.

So, until you know for a fact these paople poached these snakes, I would refrain from "calling them out" and labling them as bad guys...

Being links disappear, here is a copy of what is in the advert.


Carolina Red Pygmy Rattlsnake wild caught adult males

$195.00 each

TERMS:
To view our complete Terms go to http://tailsnmore.com/terms.html.

Note that your failure to read my terms will not under any circumstances be a reason to consider them void or altered.

I offer a conditional live arrival guarantee only (go to my web site for details).
The high and low temperature range for the day must be above 38 and below 90 degrees.
Orders sent to the airport must be picked up within 4 hours of their arrival time.
I am not responsible for missed deliveries or carrier delays.

No other guarantees or warrantees are implied or offered.

For additional information please go to my web site at

http://tailsnmore.com.

No sales to minors. Proof of age may be required at my discretion. No shipments will knowingly be sent in violation of any state or federal laws.

ANIMALS SOLD:
Animals offered for sale have not been quarantined or treated for parasites. They are otherwise all in apparent good health. I strongly recommend that all animals (captive born and wild caught) be quarantined, checked by a vet, and treated accordingly. For more information please go to my web site.

PRICING, SHIPPING and PACKING
Prices for animals do not include packing or shipping. Packing charges start at $30.00. Shipping for Delta Dash is $125.00. Venomous reptiles may only be shipped by air cargo. No exceptions.

PHOTOS and REQUESTS:
The photos in this ad may or may not be the actual animal available. Unfortunately due to the large number of photo collectors, tire-kickers, and day dreamers we can no longer put a priority on providing photos of individual animals. If there is something in particular that you are looking for you should give me a detailed description or provide me with a photo of something you like and I will see if I have anything similar. If I do and time allows I will try to provide a photo of that individual animal. I cannot make any promises that I will have time or that I will hold that animal pending your response.

CONTACT:
EMAIL: petservices@tailsnmore.com To insure you get the quickest response to your inquiry I recommend that you put the subject of your inquiry in the subject box of your email. In the text body tell me what you want. Feel free to provide as much detail as you feel is required. If you have no special preferences, requirements, don’t care as long as it’s healthy, or do not know what you want then tell me that as well. Tell me how many of each, sex, size, and whatever else you require. I will respond accordingly. If there is something you do not see in my ads or on my web site feel free to ask.
You may also call 321 505 0504 Monday through Saturday from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. eastern standard time.
URL:

http://tailsnmore.com


Copy of their terms.

http://tailsnmore.com/terms.html

I have heard of reds coming out of SC. Apparently there are also red populations in Georgia where they are not protected.

http://www.uga.edu/srelherp/snakes/sismil.htm

The Carolina pigmy rattler can be gray, tan, or lavender. Some specimens from northern Georgia and eastern North Carolina are orange or red.

So, until you know for a fact these paople poached these snakes, I would refrain from "calling them out" and labling them as bad guys...

Red-ish/orange-ish pigmy rattlers have been found in other localties, none I have ever seen look anything like the red pigs form northeastern NC. Again if they where from some place else other than NC they would be worth more than 195 if they looked like those from the north east.

I have seen my share of pigs and those I have zero doubt are from the north eastern part of the range. Oh and I am not saying bad....just stupid and make us all look bad. :rolleyes:

Please note the pics from the link you post...again so animal that do not look like red from NC. But yea your right, not all pigs in NC are red...hell not all in a litter from two reds look the same. But I have yet to see reds from other parts of the range that red period.....and they would be worth more 195 if they showed themselves. But, that is fine.... believe that you will.

Don't worry about Greg he will argue that the is not blue and ask you for a letter from God as proof. He does this all the time. He is notorious whether or not he knows it

Don't worry about Greg he will argue that the is not blue and ask you for a letter from God as proof. He does this all the time. He is notorious whether or not he knows it

So did you get in this to shit talk me or to provide some info?
If you notice, I have not asked for proof of anything. In fact, I was asked for proof and I provided it like I always do. Unless you have something to add, keep your hands in your pockets.

Don't worry about Greg he will argue that the is not blue and ask you for a letter from God as proof. He does this all the time. He is notorious whether or not he knows it

So did you get in this to shit talk me or to provide some info?
If you notice, I have not asked for proof of anything. In fact, I was asked for proof and I provided it like I always do. Unless you have something to add, keep your hands in your pockets.

Stay on topic gentlemen or take it somewhere else. :yes:

In fact, I was asked for proof and I provided it like I always do.

Really? I have not seen it yet. You posted that sometimes animals outside of NC have some redishness to them.......ok! Does not make them like reds from the northeastern NC populations. Does not change the fact that a truly red populations outside of NC would command more than 195 a pop.

I bet you have sent less time with pigmys than I have... Honestly, I am not trying to fight with you. But you defending a dumba$$ that making us all look bad.

But, I leave it to the forum readers to decide for themselves if they believe these are anything else other than NC pigs.

Honestly, neither one of you fellows have any proof to support either of your points of view. "I just know" does not constitute "proof", it is just supposition. And Gregg, you provided no proof proving they are not NC animals, just more supposition and what if's.

Tails and More is a FL based company, so chances are they did not collect themselves. I see no FACTS to support an Industry Watchdog thread, this should me moved to the Industry Gossip section unless actual proof of wrongdoing can be determined. Has anybody bothered to contact them and ask them what locality the animals are??

Really? I have not seen it yet. You posted that sometimes animals outside of NC have some redishness to them.......ok! Does not make them like reds from the northeastern NC populations. Does not change the fact that a truly red populations outside of NC would command more than 195 a pop.

The link does not say redishness. It says populations or orange and red pygmys.
And why would they command a higher price if they are the same species and color variation??? That makes no sense at all. Its not a new crazy morph. It is a natural color variation. A different locality would not jump the price up.

I bet you have sent less time with pigmys than I have... Honestly, I am not trying to fight with you. But you defending a dumba$$ that making us all look bad.

Do you know for sure that you have "spent more time with pygmys" than I have? You may very well have more experience with pygmys, but you do not know who you are talking to or what I have done. I have been working with many venomous species for close to 20 years. Like I said, I have heard of some pretty smokin reds coming out of SC. Even owned a pair about 8 years ago. And apparently, there are population of reds and oranges in Georgia as stated in the link.

And I am not defending, just being fair. You really can not out someone and call them a dumbass when you have no proof of them doing anything wrong.

But, I leave it to the forum readers to decide for themselves if they believe these are anything else other than NC pigs.

You are right, the forum readers can now decide themselves because now they have two senarios to think about instead of your one sided hyped up view on what you think might be going on, ofcorse without anything to support you other than your opinion.

:rolleyes:

Has anybody bothered to contact them and ask them what locality the animals are??

Yep... I sent an email simple asking the county locality. I did not get zip for a reply. So, they dont want to talk about it or they just dont reply to their own advertisements. Wait, I cant prove that! Maybe they have simply had internet access problems!:yes:

Well, the horse is dead and well beaten!

Well, I sent them an email as well. I got a response today. Here it ie:

Jenea

They appear to be feeding fine.


I have been told they have been in captivity for several months but
cannot say for sure if that is true.

As for locality, I do not have any info available on that.

Thanks
Mark






----- Message from sball4god@cox.net ---------
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:29:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: sball4god@cox.net
Reply-To: sball4god@cox.net
Subject: Message about: Carolina Red Pygmy Rattlsnake wild caught
adult males
To: petservices@tailsnmore.com


> *************
> NOTE: This message was sent to you via the Kingsnake.com
> Classifieds. If you feel this message is fraudulent or abusive
> please forward it to classifieds@pethobbyist.com.
> NOTE: DO NOT flag this message as SPAM/JUNK as your ability to
> receive legitimate messages from Kingsnake.com Classifieds may be
> compromised
> *************
>
> Hi,
>
> Do you have any background information on these guys, such as
> locality or how long they have been in captivity? Are they feeding
> well?
>
> Thanks,
> Jenea
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> Click on (or cut and paste into you browser's
> location window) the URL below to view the ad that
> this message is in response to.
>
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?de=884444&cat=101
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> This message was sent by an unregistered or non logged in user.
> This person may or may not be who they say they are.
> The return address they provide may or may not be their correct address.
>
> Sent 11:29 AM, Sep 30th, 2011 from I.P. Address
> 98.170.212.81/ip98-170-212-81.pn.at.cox.net
>
>


----- End message from sball4god@cox.net -----