ive asked myself if recessive genes can react with co dom or dom genes in first generation (without the dom or co dom part being a het).

weve seen that some recessive genes are compatible with others (probably allelic). happend in boas with the paradigm and just recently with the toffino in ball pythons.


ive seen a sentence were raphy posted that albinos still have a few tricks in their sleeve so i started thinking.

would it genereally be possible that a coral glow for example is compatible with an albino (we know they arent in this case- but i guess u guys understand what im going for)?

or is that genetically impossible?


the leopard thing is not what i mean, so please lets not discuss about that


thanks

ive asked myself if recessive genes can react with co dom or dom genes in first generation (without the dom or co dom part being a het).

weve seen that some recessive genes are compatible with others (probably allelic). happend in boas with the paradigm and just recently with the toffino in ball pythons.


ive seen a sentence were raphy posted that albinos still have a few tricks in their sleeve so i started thinking.

would it genereally be possible that a coral glow for example is compatible with an albino (we know they arent in this case- but i guess u guys understand what im going for)?

or is that genetically impossible?


the leopard thing is not what i mean, so please lets not discuss about that


thanks
I'm not 100% sure I know what you are getting at Joe, and I know that you are specifically talking ball pythons, but it seems like what you are describing is exactly the situation with the ulta/amel/ultramel situation in corns. Ultra (if I have this correctly) is codom, amel is recessive, and ultramel is a combination of the two. I don't know if the same situation exists in any ball pythons, but it is genetically possible.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not 100% sure I know what you are getting at Joe, and I know that you are specifically talking ball pythons, but it seems like what you are describing is exactly the situation with the ulta/amel/ultramel situation in corns. Ultra (if I have this correctly) is codom, amel is recessive, and ultramel is a combination of the two. I don't know if the same situation exists in any ball pythons, but it is genetically possible.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ultra and Amel are 2 compatible Recessive genes in corns... the thinking is that Toffee and Albino will react the same way:dunno:

What I believe he is asking is if you breed a Desert to a Het Albino, is it possible to get a Desert Albino or something inbetween!?!?!

I am no expert by any means but I don't believe that is quite possible or at least not to the extent of the Toffino project...

We have however, seen in many cases where the Het combined with a Co-Dom accents/highlights the Co-dom morph...[e.x.] Het Clown, Het Pied, Het Axanthic and Het Hypo can sometimes make things brighter, or cause pattern anomolies that make them eaiser to point out though still not 100% accurate...

Ultra and Amel are 2 compatible Recessive genes in corns... the thinking is that Toffee and Albino will react the same way:dunno:

What I believe he is asking is if you breed a Desert to a Het Albino, is it possible to get a Desert Albino or something inbetween!?!?!

I am no expert by any means but I don't believe that is quite possible or at least not to the extent of the Toffino project...

We have however, seen in many cases where the Het combined with a Co-Dom accents/highlights the Co-dom morph...[e.x.] Het Clown, Het Pied, Het Axanthic and Het Hypo can sometimes make things brighter, or cause pattern anomolies that make them eaiser to point out though still not 100% accurate...
I see where I made my mistake I think. Back to corns for comparison, ultra and amel are codom to each other and each is recessive to wild type. Is that correct? So that when a snake is het amel OR ultra his phenotype is wild type, but when he is het for BOTH amel and ultra, the new phenotype (ultramel) is expressed. Is this what people are thinking the Toffino is? The Toffino will be a different phenotype than either amel or toffee?
I am still missing something I believe in the Desert example. What we are talking about in the Toffino situation are genes that occur on the same locus, allowing a double heterozygous animal to express a new phenotype. With Desert and albino, those genes are not on the same locus, so regardless of whether desert is codom or recessive, a double heterozygous animal would not be able to express a new phenotype.
Forgive me for continuing to bring corns into the ball python discussion, but there are parallels that may help. The caramel gene in corns often "bleeds through" in it's heterozygous form, giving a different phenotype than the non-het animals from the same clutch. This is true to the extent that some corn breeders can accurately pick out the het caramel corns from a clutch. Seems like maybe this is what you were getting at?

Is this what people are thinking the Toffino is? The Toffino will be a different phenotype than either amel or toffee? My thought is that the Phenotype may be very similar to Toffee but Genetically will produce in a similar fashion to the Ultra/Amel...

Forgive me for continuing to bring corns into the ball python discussion, but there are parallels that may help. The caramel gene in corns often "bleeds through" in it's heterozygous form, giving a different phenotype than the non-het animals from the same clutch. This is true to the extent that some corn breeders can accurately pick out the het caramel corns from a clutch. Seems like maybe this is what you were getting at? We are on the same page here...

yep- u guys got my thought pretty good. if cornsnake, monitor or ballpython doesnt really matters to me (for the start).

just if its generally possible that a dominant morph like the pinstripe for example is on the same locus (allelic) with a recessive gene like the toffee.


or can just co dom genes be allelic to co dom genes (mojo x lesser) and recessive gene to recessive genes (probably albino x toffee)...?

If what we consider to be a "het recessive" can be identified, is it really a "het recessive". Would it be possible that it is really just a "subtle co-dom" and what we consider the homozygous recessive is actually a homozygous co-dom ??

Joe, I think the closest example is the one you do not want to talk about; Leopard.


Eliminating that morph, in my studies there have been situations described where there are genes that have alleles that behave strangely when combined (weirdly/unexpectedly dominant or recessive). However, most of the cases I am familiar with are in bacteria where the diploid state of the gene is artificially induced. I would not be surprised if a gene had LoF, GoF and/or PE/Rs alleles that behaved in different manners (I am pretty sure some of the mutations we see in a lot of domestic/exotic pets are of this nature). But in those cases usually one or the other allele reigns supreme.

I cannot think of any case, nor do I recall any from my studies, where a recessive allele was able to interact with a dominant allele to bring about a phenotype. I do know that recently there was a gene discovered wherein the mutation was a dominant-negative type but was inherited in a recessive manner. But that is a little different than what you are asking for Joe...

Joe, I think the closest example is the one you do not want to talk about; Leopard.


Eliminating that morph, in my studies there have been situations described where there are genes that have alleles that behave strangely when combined (weirdly/unexpectedly dominant or recessive). However, most of the cases I am familiar with are in bacteria where the diploid state of the gene is artificially induced. I would not be surprised if a gene had LoF, GoF and/or PE/Rs alleles that behaved in different manners (I am pretty sure some of the mutations we see in a lot of domestic/exotic pets are of this nature). But in those cases usually one or the other allele reigns supreme.

I cannot think of any case, nor do I recall any from my studies, where a recessive allele was able to interact with a dominant allele to bring about a phenotype. I do know that recently there was a gene discovered wherein the mutation was a dominant-negative type but was inherited in a recessive manner. But that is a little different than what you are asking for Joe...


thanks for expaling that! its basically what i thought, but that was just based on my gut feeling- not on knowledge.

Joe,
I have wondered the same thing. Won't bring up any specific morphs(because I always gravitate towards my favorites) but when you have what appears to be visual hets in a recessive, is it a true recessive? I personally have 3 examples but I don't have enough information yet to be sure.These are recessives but I can pick out the hets.

Forgive my ignorance but what about Pastel Faders? Are they an example of the combonation of pastel and some here to unknown recessive trait that when combined created the co dom trait known as fader or am I out too lunch? Or is fader selective breeding..
On another note isnt toffino a new thing in balls. I mean technically wasnt the expectation that the breeding would produce a double recessive animal that expressed a wild type phenotype. Like Homo Albino x Homo Pied. You need to breed the offspring of that breeding to produce albino pieds.

Hazhaar,

The "Fader" situation is not fully known. Personally I think it is the result of selective breeding off less stable forms of the allele. Others contend differently.

Re: Toffino, yes most everyone expected a Toffee x Albino to give rise to double hets. However, what it turned out to be is not wholly unexpected. Dig up a couple of the epically long threads on the topic for full breakdowns of it, no point hijacking this thread :yes:

Leaving the leopard alone, look at the effect of a single pied allele on some inc. dom. morphs such as the mojave (as specialtyreptile was saying). The mojave pattern seems to melt and distort along the sides toward the back on a mojave het pied. I know this isn't what you were looking for, but we know that a recessive allele can have some modest effect on an inc. dom. phenotype, but this is not really a case where there appears to be true or direct interaction between the two. They're at different loci on different chromosomes.

LOL dont worry I have read those threads but I cant remember the techicallities with all the BS that was flying around and dont worry no intention of trying too flog that dead horse. Thanks for the explanation.
Has any one done pied x Leopard?

LOL dont worry I have read those threads but I cant remember the techicallities with all the BS that was flying around and dont worry no intention of trying too flog that dead horse. Thanks for the explanation.
Has any one done pied x Leopard?

yep- i guess that was one of the first combos made with the leopard gene. its logic, since the leopard came out of normal piebalds.

iirc is it a split between pieds, leopard pieds and leopards (or was it just leopard and leopard pieds???)

ill have to look it up again to be sure.

how ever- it appears that there are even homozygous leopard pieds.

a friend of mine has bred his leopard pied (which he bought as pied directly from pete kahl) and till this date he has only hatched leopards and leopard combos.

i guess 39 in total by now (would have to ask him again to know the exact figure- however- it was more than 30 leos/ leo combos)