Ok all my new friends out there. Big Gunns is gonna take you all on "the inside" of the reptile importing bizz to give you a better understanding of how things work. He knows you're all "experts", but Big Gunns might be able to give you all a leeeetle info you didn't know.

Big Gunns is also going to introduce you to a good friend of his that most people that have ever gone to any show in the Northeast, or any of the big shows know very well. This man is a true expert when it comes to this business. It's much better if you hear from him than Big Gunns.

Hello everyone....my name is Neil.:cool:

I would like to tell you all about the importation of Ball Pythons to this country. (notice the "I" at the beginning of this sentence?):lol:

As some of you know Ian G is a good friend of mine. I know that most of you here at the BLBC do not like the way he practices his business. I can honestly say I don't like it all either, but I still consider him a good friend.

Ian is clearly one of the biggest importers from Africa. He doesn't concentrate on it as much anymore, but he is still at the very top.

The BLBC has a clear dislike for any animal that is sold as something "different" for more money on Kingsnake. What most of you all probably don't realize is that most of these animals are sold the same way straight out of Africa.

I have opened numerous shipments with Ian straight from Africa. They come in a crate with bags of ten animals each and an invoice of what is in the shipment. These bags are all labeled differently. Ian finds the bags, then looks at the invoice to see what's in it and what he paid for these animals. Let's say there's a bag of ten "specials" with the letter "B" on the bag. Ian may have paid anywhere from $20 to $500 or more for those animals.

The Africans are not dumb. They sort these animals and pick out the "specials" and sell them for more money. Years ago they were sold as normals, but not now. The "gig" is up. Have any of you seen the movie Blood Diamond? The Africans know when they have something of value. Holy sheyat. I have HBO on and they just started interviewing all the actors from Blood Diamond.:lol:

Tell me what Ian is supposed to do. He needs to take these specials to get all the "good stuff". The Ghosts, the Pastels...etc..etc..

Pics of lot of these "specials" are sent to Ian before they are shipped. These are the real special ones that they may be able to sell for thousands to Ian or other importers. Ian has shown me numerous pics of animals in Africa and asked me if I wanted them. I have then seen these same animals in other "Big doggs" collections when I've turned them down.

Now after Ian gets these animals he needs to sell them. He sells them to people that are going to keep and breed them to try and prove them out...and to people that are going to "flip" them. So just because you guys don't see something in a Kingsnake pic, it doesn't mean they are not "different". They usually have cost a whole lot more than a normal also. Sure some cool animals come through with the normals, but not as much anymore. They are sorted numerous times before they ever make it here.

I have bought numerous "specials over the years. Unfortunately I have gotten Lazy on proving these things out. I have produced some things that are "different", but I have yet to breed them beck to see if there is some sort of super that is even cooler. I have genetic granites and a few other cool animals that have produced different looking babies that I'm waiting to see if the produce something better in the next couple of years.


Now what is so wrong with having "dinker" projects. Most of you know Ralph and all of his "dinking" projects. You all go to his birthing page to see what cool thing he may have hatched. Now how many of his "dinkers" proved out? He's proved as many as anyone. Amir and Vin Russo are also a couple of "Big Time Dinkers" and look at all they have done. "Dinking" makes it fun. Any bozo can breed a Spider to a Pastel and know what they're going to get. It's these "dinking" projects that make it more exciting. You're dying to see what comes out of a certain clutch to see if you have something "different".

If there was a jungle behind your house, would all of you go down the same path every day, or would you explore new ones to see what you may find? It's the same thing. It keeps the breeding interesting for some. They like it, so why hate on them as idiots for breeding "specials". It's a gamble and it may pay off BIG. Let people have some fun.

Now I really don't want you all to think that I have something personal against the BLBC. I can promise you I do not. I understand what you guys are trying to do. I don't agree with all of it, but I understand it. I know how my buddy Big Gunns comes across on a forum, well you guys are really coming off as "haters"....and hypocritical haters sometimes also. If you don't care, I sure as hell don't. I just thought I would school you all on a few things.

I hope you all have a better understanding of the reptile importing bizz now. I'm sure I left a few things out, but I think you all get the idea of how things work.

ps. I wonder how long it will take before this ends up in the saloon.:lol:


LONG LIVE THE BLBC!!!!!!!!:master::yourock:

Big Gunns forgot to say something. There is another original saying that Big Gunns has.

"You're gonna hate me till you love me"



If you keep that in mind, it may be easier to deal with Big Gunns right now.


ps. The weaker you are the longer it takes to love Big Gunns.:lol::lol:

agreed :yourock:

Not that I know anything about importing BPs but if people stop dinking 'special' imports then the hobby slowly dies out.


Kind of like drug testing, people cry about how its done, but they sure do enjoy when that drug saves their life or helps them pitch a tent again.

I for one have always enjoyed your posts Kneel. You bring a unique perspective to the table. (or is that a eunuch perspective?) I personally greatly enjoy working on special projects and have spent a few extra dollars buying 'special' import animals from time to time. I can understand some peoples outcry at the exorbitant prices charged for something that doesn't really look all that great and has no guarantee of proving to be anything special. But as long as the customer understands that what they are doing in effect is gambling and they plunk down their money with their eyes open, I don't see where it's anybodies business what anyone charges for the animals. If they're priced too high, they won't sell. A lot of people think lottery tickets are stupid too but they're still being sold left and right. And I think that working with these animals is a lot more fun then watching the little balls pop up for the lottery drawing.

So Here is what I wonder. If we've been importing norms (and 'special' norms) for many many years now, couldn't you argue that there is already a substantial amount of genetic diversity already floating around here in the US/UK/Canada? I have a great many 'dinker' projects and none have been from buying 'specials' that were imported in recent years (most have been previous pets or dinkers that someone else was too lazy to prove out). I personally think the whole line about having to keep importing because it brings in new blood and the hobby would die without it is complete BS. We could be working with the gene pool that already exists and that would keep us busy for quite some time. But, of course, we aren't talking about the hobby or market stability, we are talking about money and how to tap as much out as possible before the market goes boom.

My .02


~Kat

Agreed Kat

At this point, all importation of BPs could be stopped and the genetic diversity we have in the US alone would carry the hobby for decades. Outside if bringing in the next " WOW " animal, this smells of nothing more than trying to justify a means to generate sales in an over saturated market. Granted its a different take than the " financial support of the African collectors, exporters etc.

If the ad clearly states what the animal is, price it at what you want. I think you'll find what the folks around here get bitchy about are the ads that almost guarantee the animal is genetic as an unknown ch that looks kinda sorta like a known proven morph.

Neil...Thank you and everyone doesnt hate you maybe not agree all the time but not hate...
Kevin Stoltz

The Africans are not dumb

I beg to differ, they are sneaky as hell, trust me I have been here (Africa) my entire life.
What I don’t understand is why are Normal balls still being imported to the US??? Honestly, when was the last time anything cool came out of Africa-new morph wise.
Go to West Africa yourself and have a looky loo...it sucks...point blank, live sea turtles on their back flippers hacked off, Large Afrocks with severed spines (still alive), Dwarf crocs tied up or being boiled alive...and lots more, all this as part of the bush meat trade..now you want to tell me somebody like that is going to run a business that takes good care of the animals so they can be exported to the US?
No my friend, YOU, the person still importing NORMAL (YES F-ing pet shop normal) balls from Africa are one massive ulcer filled A-hole! You are going down in a slow spiral that is only going to take the entire market with you...
News flash, balls become endangered in Africa, BAM no more trade in balls, they won’t care if it is a Paradox albino het spongebob... Everybody needs to start thinking about the future, Africa only has so many balls (Prob less than the US at this point) and the locals don’t give a rats ass, they will sell you the last ball on the continent. When is enough enough? We have had threads on here about guys killing off healthy normal balls cos they can’t sell them, but heck, you just keep bringing in more????
I am not damming importing as a whole, if something truly special is found there is merit in getting it into the hands of somebody who knows what they are doing, but bringing in graved normal’s and trying to hit the jackpot is... (I think this is where we step into the Saloon).
Anybody who still does this kind of stuff is a lazy SOB in my book.
THE B

PS-If I was at all unclear in the previous post let me break it down.
Average African=Lazy, violent SOB who will sell you his only child’s liver for a swig of bad piss filled wine.
Average US/UK/SA (Me included) hobbyist=Selfish SOB who only cares about his own wealth/personal collection and what he can get out the deal.
Somewhere we have to think about the bigger picture...I want my grandkiddies to still be able to keep pythons when I am good and gone, that can only happen if the wild populations are being kept alive and healthy, I can promise you the Africans are not caring about that...do you?
THE B

I beg to differ, they are sneaky as hell, trust me I have been here (Africa) my entire life.
What I don’t understand is why are Normal balls still being imported to the US??? Honestly, when was the last time anything cool came out of Africa-new morph wise.
Go to West Africa yourself and have a looky loo...it sucks...point blank, live sea turtles on their back flippers hacked off, Large Afrocks with severed spines (still alive), Dwarf crocs tied up or being boiled alive...and lots more, all this as part of the bush meat trade..now you want to tell me somebody like that is going to run a business that takes good care of the animals so they can be exported to the US?
No my friend, YOU, the person still importing NORMAL (YES F-ing pet shop normal) balls from Africa are one massive ulcer filled A-hole! You are going down in a slow spiral that is only going to take the entire market with you...
News flash, balls become endangered in Africa, BAM no more trade in balls, they won’t care if it is a Paradox albino het spongebob... Everybody needs to start thinking about the future, Africa only has so many balls (Prob less than the US at this point) and the locals don’t give a rats ass, they will sell you the last ball on the continent. When is enough enough? We have had threads on here about guys killing off healthy normal balls cos they can’t sell them, but heck, you just keep bringing in more????
I am not damming importing as a whole, if something truly special is found there is merit in getting it into the hands of somebody who knows what they are doing, but bringing in graved normal’s and trying to hit the jackpot is... (I think this is where we step into the Saloon).
Anybody who still does this kind of stuff is a lazy SOB in my book.
THE B

Thank you beast! The same kind of horror takes place on Madagascar as well. The chameleons are plucked from trees and dropped to the ground if the poacher dosen't have a sachel on him. They are then bagged up and sit on docks waiting for transport.

The whole import business needs an overhaul, however, the imports will not be as cheap and god forbid we can't have anymore cheap imports!

I personally don't give a rats ass how you want to try to justify the higher price for the so called "specials". I don't care if Ian or whoever had to pay so much for them that they're only making $5 on the sale. It's all irrelevant to me because the fact is there is NO reason whatsoever for them to even be brought in in the first place.
Aside from actual honest to goodness morphs, morphs which are either not present or still rare in captive collections, there is no reason to bring any ball python in for any price.
We've brought tens of thousands of balls in from Africa every year for over a decade, and new morphs from the wild have dwindled out for the most part. It's time to get off the ride. It's no longer about establishing the species in the hobby, or building up the number of mutations, it's now solely about flipping the CH babies for a profit.
I've said it many times before, all the big importers of ball pythons are little more than parasites on the hobby. Anyone who brings in 5000 CH babies every year and tries to tell me they care about the hobby or are in it for the love of the animals, I'll call BS to their face. The wholesale pillaging of the wild populations at this point does nothing to benefit the hobby, or anything else for that matter, except maybe the thickness of a few wallets.
I've heard the argument many times how there are soooo many balls in Africa, we aren't hurting the wild population at all really. I think the pale faces said the same thing about buffalo 150 years ago. You can't tell me that pulling 175,000 (sum total of export quotas) snakes from the population annually, especially of a species with normally low reproductive rates, is not having a cumulative effect.

There's enough normal babies produced in this country every year as by products of codom morph breeding to pretty much satisfy the market. As it stands now though, because of the useless mass importing that still continues, real breeders can barely give away their normal babies trying to compete with the $5 each you can get CH for if you buy a dozen.
And still every spring you see the same bunch of parasites joyfully announcing that CH season is here, get your pre orders in today, 100 lots for $550 shipped. Or even worse, "gravid season is here, get your gravid WC females before they're all gone! You might hatch out the next big thing!" Blah blah blah.
They don't look at them as baby snakes, they see them as a crate of $10 bills that they paid $3 each for.

To be perfectly honest however, it's not fair to lay the blame entirely on the parasitic dealers bringing them in from Africa. Every person and pet store who purchases one of these shares in the blame and are equally guilty. Let those guys bring in the first shipment of 1000 and then 4 weeks later they still have 900 left only because 100 died and I bet their next order would get canceled real quick.
The only way to stop it as long as there is money to be made bringing them in is to stop buying them completely. Don't buy them from the importers, don't buy them from the pet stores. Better yet don't buy anything else from the people who participate in the CH ball trade, and let them know why.
All the complaining in the world won't make one bit of difference, only when dealing in WC balls starts to cost them money will they stop.

I guess the school went the other way! Good post Beast, Clay, and Laura!

The BLBC has a clear dislike for any animal that is sold as something "different" for more money on Kingsnake. What most of you all probably don't realize is that most of these animals are sold the same way straight out of Africa.



Seems like either you just want to stir the pot or are looking for attention -- do you really think you are telling us anything we don't already know?

And I don't have a dislike for dinker projects being sold for more money on KS I have a problem with the people who put morph labels and prices on damn near normal unproven import dinker projects - clearly misrepresenting them to be something they are not. I cannot speak for the others everyone has their own opinions.

But seriously if you think you are going to school us on the greater ways of your big doggs please do us a favor and save the bandwidth - we aren't as clueless as you seem to think.

I don't think that there ever going to stop importation of ball pythons unless they become endangered in the wild. With that being said there should be some type of regulation on them and the people bringing them in, there is a little saying "Money Talks Bullshit Walks" sad but true. I think this whole thing lies with the importers and there values they have to obied by integrity, allot have shown they have no morals. I was a little confused about the whole flipper thing at once didn't really understand the whole concept, well I think I overstand now. You only trust the flippers who have values and morals and at the end you will find quality! I say this because it seems that the majority of this industry was built on flipping.

Ophiuchus, there is regulation on them...it's called CITES, they're an Appendix II animal and the exportation from their native countries is pretty well controlled...usually.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x59/NorthStarConstrictors/BallPythonCITES.jpg

Interestingly enough, look at the numbers from the countries that export ball pythons... still quite a large number this last year. Where do those all go? Into the pet trade... it seems that many of these large numbers of Captive Hatched are treated like they're perishable goods to be mindlessly bought and sold, apparently many importers forget they're animals and not commodities. But when you're making a quick buck, who cares about the ultimate fate of the animal, right? I don't see the need for any more imported ball pythons... like has been said here, there are enough captive bred animals to fulfill the needs of the pet industry, anyone who thinks otherwise is blind.

I agree wholeheartedly with African Beast, Clay, and Laura's posts. :cheers:

Just a word about CITES. Ultimately CITES is simply a regulatory agreement between governments. It requires each individual government to ultimately regulate itself within the guidelines agreed upon by the majority. CITES, although better than nothing, is not the bad assed regulatory army that some seem to think it is and, like any bureaucracy, a great deal slips through the cracks.


~Kat

Just a word about CITES. Ultimately CITES is simply a regulatory agreement between governments. It requires each individual government to ultimately regulate itself within the guidelines agreed upon by the majority. CITES, although better than nothing, is not the bad assed regulatory army that some seem to think it is and, like any bureaucracy, a great deal slips through the cracks.


~Kat

Hence "usually"...:lol:

Great post Neil....I mean Big Gunns! I have always enjoyed reading your posts...you tell it like it is...No BS!

Thanks Andy

Interestingly enough, look at the numbers from the countries that export ball pythons... still quite a large number this last year.

You probably already did, but scroll on down that page you took the screen shot of. Notice the quota for Benin has been cut to less than half of the 1998 quota.
If the removal of those numbers of snakes from the wild was having no effect on wild populations as some like to claim, then why hasn't the quota remained the same?

A fairly large percentage of reptiles born in the wild die from predation or other causes before being able to reproduce. No species can sustain an additional 200,000 plus annually added to normal attrition rates indefinitely.
There was a time when the large scale importation was beneficial, when we were bringing in new morphs and additional stock to be raised as breeders, but today the continued practice of this is nothing more than a blatant disregard for the long term survival of wild populations in favor of a short term increase in profits.

Great post Neil....I mean Big Gunns! I have always enjoyed reading your posts...you tell it like it is...No BS!

Thanks Andy
Actually, alot of it is BS.

Actually, alot of it is BS.

I'll second that :yessir:

Actually, alot of it is BS.
I third this

I doubt a US regulatory agency will end imports for moral reasons because opponents would show such a move harms them and law is in place that recognises economic harm. To mobilise a morality driven legislative action, I believe it would end up getting ear marked with other species to the point that I would imagine the greater community at large would oppose the regulations as a perceived threat against the entire 'industry'. Much the same as everyone fights against trade controls on Eunectes, Burmese and Reticulated importation and domestic trade, with a "where does it stop" mindset.

Added, there are other species worse off than ball pythons yet nothing done. I'll cite the Russian tortoise for example. Each Russian tortoises takes many many years to mature; each specimen represents the top of a genetic pyramid yet tens of thousands of adult (due to US 4 " law) specimans are stripped from the wild each year. Nothing done.


US regulatory agencies would stop importation if for example it was discovered ball pythons somehow represented a threat to, say, the US livestock industry. Such as was done with the African Leopard
tortoise/heartwater tick threat. Though ball pythons carry ticks, not much chance of that occurring.

That leaves CITES. If data were published showing the species in serious trouble, (for example such data was published re G sulcata) and a country sponsors the action, the CITES could impliment a world-wide ban on trade in wildcaught specimens, but the range countries generally have to agree to it. The question is, would they agree to it. In light of such data, the CITES could also move the species into appendix I, which would make international trade in captive bred specimens more problematic for breeders. Would all countries agree to this. Hard to say.

Actually, alot of it is BS.

4th it

I beg to differ, they are sneaky as hell, trust me I have been here (Africa) my entire life.
What I don’t understand is why are Normal balls still being imported to the US??? Honestly, when was the last time anything cool came out of Africa-new morph wise.
Go to West Africa yourself and have a looky loo...it sucks...point blank, live sea turtles on their back flippers hacked off, Large Afrocks with severed spines (still alive), Dwarf crocs tied up or being boiled alive...and lots more, all this as part of the bush meat trade..now you want to tell me somebody like that is going to run a business that takes good care of the animals so they can be exported to the US?
No my friend, YOU, the person still importing NORMAL (YES F-ing pet shop normal) balls from Africa are one massive ulcer filled A-hole! You are going down in a slow spiral that is only going to take the entire market with you...
News flash, balls become endangered in Africa, BAM no more trade in balls, they won’t care if it is a Paradox albino het spongebob... Everybody needs to start thinking about the future, Africa only has so many balls (Prob less than the US at this point) and the locals don’t give a rats ass, they will sell you the last ball on the continent. When is enough enough? We have had threads on here about guys killing off healthy normal balls cos they can’t sell them, but heck, you just keep bringing in more????
I am not damming importing as a whole, if something truly special is found there is merit in getting it into the hands of somebody who knows what they are doing, but bringing in graved normal’s and trying to hit the jackpot is... (I think this is where we step into the Saloon).
Anybody who still does this kind of stuff is a lazy SOB in my book.
THE B
:yourock: :rockon: :yourock:

I doubt a US regulatory agency will end imports for moral reasons because opponents would show such a move harms them and law is in place that recognises economic harm. To mobilise a morality driven legislative action, I believe it would end up getting ear marked with other species to the point that I would imagine the greater community at large would oppose the regulations as a perceived threat against the entire 'industry'. Much the same as everyone fights against trade controls on Eunectes, Burmese and Reticulated importation and domestic trade, with a "where does it stop" mindset.


I don't think people are for legislation to END importation altogether, just a "grassroots" effort to put an end to it by making it unprofitable to continue the practice. If we stop buying from importers or the people that support these importers, the money flow to them will end. I'm not saying that ALL importation of ball pythons is bad, but in large, it is unnecessary for these normal or slightly "special" specimens. If something truely unique is found, of course it would be great to get that gene into the pool that is already here, otherwise, we already have a giant genetic pool to work with and further raping of a species is silly. My whole point being, I don't think legislation is necessary to control something that the free markets can already handle if we educate the consumers.

I doubt a US regulatory agency will end imports for moral reasons because opponents would show such a move harms them and law is in place that recognises economic harm. To mobilise a morality driven legislative action, I believe it would end up getting ear marked with other species to the point that I would imagine the greater community at large would oppose the regulations as a perceived threat against the entire 'industry'. Much the same as everyone fights against trade controls on Eunectes, Burmese and Reticulated importation and domestic trade, with a "where does it stop" mindset.

Added, there are other species worse off than ball pythons yet nothing done. I'll cite the Russian tortoise for example. Each Russian tortoises takes many many years to mature; each specimen represents the top of a genetic pyramid yet tens of thousands of adult (due to US 4 " law) specimans are stripped from the wild each year. Nothing done.


I agree with this completely, which is why I have always been a strong opponent of ANY form of reptile related legislation. My thoughts are when you open the door to one piece of legislation you also make it easier for the next and before long we will find ourselves choked out of existence by governmental ineptitude.
Sometimes I think I'm a little too optimistic on the subject, but I'm a believer in self regulation. We as a group, the hobbyists, the end consumers, can regulate any aspect of our hobby if we so choose.
We can stop the importation of ball pythons, or russian tortoises, or affect anything else we want related to herps IF we act together and refuse to support those that proliferate the practices we dislike.
The inherent problem is it's an almost impossible task to get enough people to join the cause to actually effect change.

For instance, concerning the topic at hand, for several years now I have refused to do business with those who import the ball pythons. I like most of the guys that I have met that do this, and their business practices are most often exemplary, but I choose to not do business with them for any animal regardless of the species if they also import the CH balls every year.
While I may have inadvertently bought something from one of these people who I didn't realize was a part of the ball trade, I do not knowingly buy anything, captive born or not, from those sellers. I also do my best not to buy anything from anyone who uses those sellers as their supplier either, whether for CB animals or anything else.
I shop at one pet store and one pet store only because it's the only one that I know for a fact will not carry wild caught balls, Savannah monitors, russian tortoises, or anything else like that.
I've passed up good deals on snakes I would have liked to have had because they were on Ben Seigel's table at a show. I like Ben, and he often has quality CB animals, but he also imports large numbers of balls every year so I don't buy from him.

My point being we do not need legislation at all if we will become proactive and confront the matter ourselves with our wallets. In the end we will be better off all around, we won't have to put up with government interference and we also wouldn't have to tolerate some of the sad practices we have now.

I don't think people are for legislation to END importation altogether, just a "grassroots" effort to put an end to it by making it unprofitable to continue the practice. If we stop buying from importers or the people that support these importers, the money flow to them will end. I'm not saying that ALL importation of ball pythons is bad, but in large, it is unnecessary for these normal or slightly "special" specimens. If something truely unique is found, of course it would be great to get that gene into the pool that is already here, otherwise, we already have a giant genetic pool to work with and further raping of a species is silly. My whole point being, I don't think legislation is necessary to control something that the free markets can already handle if we educate the consumers.

I believe the 'free market' forces most likely to affect the trade will be that of supply in the range countries; such as what occurred with the European garden tortoise (T. graeca and T. hermanni) trade many years ago.

Just a word about CITES. Ultimately CITES is simply a regulatory agreement between governments. It requires each individual government to ultimately regulate itself within the guidelines agreed upon by the majority. CITES, although better than nothing, is not the bad assed regulatory army that some seem to think it is and, like any bureaucracy, a great deal slips through the cracks.


~Kat

That's right. I'd also point out that CITES and related rules are more stringently enforced on (by our governemt ) Americans than most other governments on their respective citizens anywhere else in the world. Possibly some of the European countries excepted like Germany, Italy, France.

I believe the 'free market' forces most likely to affect the trade will be that of supply in the range countries; such as what occurred with the European garden tortoise (T. graeca and T. hermanni) trade many years ago.

I basically tried to make the same point Clay more elagantly put it in his post. You don't think that as a community that we can't make it unprofittable enough for the importers to stop buying the animals from the africans that try to mass export them? Sure, supply would probably end the exportation of balls faster than we can make it less profitable for them, but, we can still have an impact as a community that puts alot of the importers in this country out of business. Without the importers here, who will the exporters sell them to? I really hate the idea of legislation where it's not needed, and I really don't think this is an area where it is needed. All we need to do is expose what is really going on with these animals and it will eventually become a bad business decision to deal in CH or WC animals. Just my opinion on the issue.

I agree wholeheartedly with African Beast, Clay, and Laura's posts. :cheers:

I agree, some great points by these people, Kat and a few others. I have to wonder, okay, fine... "specials".... they are different looking then the typical normal.... worth trying to prove out, but isn't that the point of the problem with people advertising them as "This morph or poss that".... whatever happened to prove it out and then label it that morph? Or does that just eat into the whole profit because of the time and effort that goes into proving something out and of course seeing it not prove it out....

I think the less "we" support those that keep the mass importation alive the better, starting with the importation of gravid females.... which in my book is the most disgusting form of importation, ball python wise. The whole ch importation of juvies is nothing more then a money grab really....

:cheers: Great post

I personally don't give a rats ass how you want to try to justify the higher price for the so called "specials". I don't care if Ian or whoever had to pay so much for them that they're only making $5 on the sale. It's all irrelevant to me because the fact is there is NO reason whatsoever for them to even be brought in in the first place.
Aside from actual honest to goodness morphs, morphs which are either not present or still rare in captive collections, there is no reason to bring any ball python in for any price.
We've brought tens of thousands of balls in from Africa every year for over a decade, and new morphs from the wild have dwindled out for the most part. It's time to get off the ride. It's no longer about establishing the species in the hobby, or building up the number of mutations, it's now solely about flipping the CH babies for a profit.
I've said it many times before, all the big importers of ball pythons are little more than parasites on the hobby. Anyone who brings in 5000 CH babies every year and tries to tell me they care about the hobby or are in it for the love of the animals, I'll call BS to their face. The wholesale pillaging of the wild populations at this point does nothing to benefit the hobby, or anything else for that matter, except maybe the thickness of a few wallets.
I've heard the argument many times how there are soooo many balls in Africa, we aren't hurting the wild population at all really. I think the pale faces said the same thing about buffalo 150 years ago. You can't tell me that pulling 175,000 (sum total of export quotas) snakes from the population annually, especially of a species with normally low reproductive rates, is not having a cumulative effect.

There's enough normal babies produced in this country every year as by products of codom morph breeding to pretty much satisfy the market. As it stands now though, because of the useless mass importing that still continues, real breeders can barely give away their normal babies trying to compete with the $5 each you can get CH for if you buy a dozen.
And still every spring you see the same bunch of parasites joyfully announcing that CH season is here, get your pre orders in today, 100 lots for $550 shipped. Or even worse, "gravid season is here, get your gravid WC females before they're all gone! You might hatch out the next big thing!" Blah blah blah.
They don't look at them as baby snakes, they see them as a crate of $10 bills that they paid $3 each for.

To be perfectly honest however, it's not fair to lay the blame entirely on the parasitic dealers bringing them in from Africa. Every person and pet store who purchases one of these shares in the blame and are equally guilty. Let those guys bring in the first shipment of 1000 and then 4 weeks later they still have 900 left only because 100 died and I bet their next order would get canceled real quick.
The only way to stop it as long as there is money to be made bringing them in is to stop buying them completely. Don't buy them from the importers, don't buy them from the pet stores. Better yet don't buy anything else from the people who participate in the CH ball trade, and let them know why.
All the complaining in the world won't make one bit of difference, only when dealing in WC balls starts to cost them money will they stop.

I basically tried to make the same point Clay more elagantly put it in his post. You don't think that as a community that we can't make it unprofittable enough for the importers to stop buying the animals from the africans that try to mass export them?



Realistically? My opinion is no, if you expect it to occur within this generation. Not everyone feels the same way as do us breeders. It took an entire generation for the British to come to their senses regarding tortoises, and they are noted for their moral handwringing.



Without the importers here, who will the exporters sell them to?

The rest of the world, to put it bluntly. The far east is developing a market for African stuff, on the cheap. Given lax or at best spotty African government enforcement, Africa's wildlife traffickers will stay in business until they can no longer do so. Thus my prediction regarding supply.





I really hate the idea of legislation where it's not needed, and I really don't think this is an area where it is needed. All we need to do is expose what is really going on with these animals and it will eventually become a bad business decision to deal in CH or WC animals. Just my opinion on the issue.

I think it will take a generation, and unfortunately, poor economic conditions are hell for wildlife.
There are many species being exploited, and to much much worse extent. Look at annamensis; the first documented wildcaught specimens in over forty years were recently announced. Meaning, no one could find any more of them in the wild, they would just "appear" in Chinese markets in small numbers.
http://www.claudius-r-us.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3

Meaning, my opinion is, we have a ways to go before ball pythons are used up.

I also agree as Kat pointed out, that a sufficient percentage of the wild ball python population have their genes expressed in USA imports.
Were it me, I'd arbitrarily cut off pet trade reptile imports across the board and thus give captive breeding a much deserved leg up. Some kind of legislation is the shortest, quickest solution. I'm not a lobbyist, so envisioning what form it would take is above my pay scale.

I basically tried to make the same point Clay more elagantly put it in his post. You don't think that as a community that we can't make it unprofittable enough for the importers to stop buying the animals from the africans that try to mass export them? Sure, supply would probably end the exportation of balls faster than we can make it less profitable for them, but, we can still have an impact as a community that puts alot of the importers in this country out of business. Without the importers here, who will the exporters sell them to? I really hate the idea of legislation where it's not needed, and I really don't think this is an area where it is needed. All we need to do is expose what is really going on with these animals and it will eventually become a bad business decision to deal in CH or WC animals. Just my opinion on the issue.

Personally , what I have learned here has and will continue to have an impact on what I buy in the future .
As a newcomer to the bp world....when most of the big breeders show and tell their wc or ch it seems an ok thing to do . When you look on the BOI or read the forums prior to this one ...it is not common to ever see or hear about the reasons against the practice . I know you guys have had an impact on me personally and I assume that the more you continue to educate on the subject the greater impact you will have on the community as a whole .
Toni

Nice post Neil! My only mistake was not listening to Ian when he told me he thought something was special! I still pick up special looking balls every year and have for the last 12 or so years.

Tosha, not everyone is as educated as you are on this industry. I have been doing it for almost 20 years and still learn stuff every day! Just think how boring it would be if all everyone did on the forums was post a picture of a snake and everyone respond "nice snake". I for one like hearing what others have to say even if it is something I know.......

Just think how boring it would be if all everyone did on the forums was post a picture of a snake and everyone respond "nice snake". I for one like hearing what others have to say even if it is something I know.......

Hey Hey leave the snake pic's out of this now http://smileyicons.net/s/1053.gif

I'm just kidding with ya Phil :)

Nice post Neil! My only mistake was not listening to Ian when he told me he thought something was special! I still pick up special looking balls every year and have for the last 12 or so years.

Tosha, not everyone is as educated as you are on this industry. I have been doing it for almost 20 years and still learn stuff every day! Just think how boring it would be if all everyone did on the forums was post a picture of a snake and everyone respond "nice snake". I for one like hearing what others have to say even if it is something I know.......

I hear ya Phil. While I might not agree with everything here, at least its entertaining, informative, and sometimes educational! The "nice snake" posts do get kinda old........

Big Gunns did say that you all were "experts" right Tosha?:cool: It's obvious to Big Gunns that you're a woman that definitely "knows it all".:lol:

BG has not bought a "special" in a couple years now. Although you're all wrong in thinking that the captive born animals can supply the demand, BG would like to see the importation stopped also. Without the importation of animals to begin with though, we would have no hobby/business. There would be no Spider, Pied, Banana, or Candy Ball(shameless self promotion).:lol:

The thing that Big Gunns finds most amusing about this thread is this. The people that have actually met and know Big Gunns like the post....the ones that have never had the pleasure don't. :lol::lol:

Now why is it that the people that have met Big Gunns like him? HMMMMMMMMMM Well a few may not, but it's usally BG that started the dislike first.

BG may change his signature saying from "arrogance only bothers the weak" to "arrogance ALWAYS bothers the weak"

Hello again... Beast/Diaga....my good buddy.:lol:

The thing that Big Gunns finds most amusing about this thread is this. The people that have actually met and know Big Gunns like the post....the ones that have never had the pleasure don't. :lol::lol:



BS, never met you, but I don't have a problem with the post at all.... when you bring up captive hatched importing.... well, it's a bound to get interesting! :lol:

Welcome back by the way! :lol:

And congrats on the Candy.... are the hets sugar free? :lol:

Hello again... Beast/Diaga....my good buddy.

I am glad you liked the fruit basket, planted those myself....

I generally tend to stay away from gay rallies and AAA meetings, so I doubt we will ever meet.

Being liked is nice, glad you had the chance to experience it.

I don’t know your friend Ian, but if he is bringing in WC/W Hatched stuff he is a dip-shit, you will be known by your friends hy Biggie.

Damming importing as a whole is hypocritical, like has been said, without it you guys would still be playing with yourselves or corn snakes and I would prob be dead from puff adder bites...but there must come a time to stop, when the profit to be made from one more rare morph out of Africa is not worth the damage when the entire species is taken out of the hobby by greed.

Let’s get together , sing Kum ba ya and burn these parasitic bastards right out of the hobby!

THE B

PS-has Neil sorted out his Pinkie Penis problem yet.

BS, never met you, but I don't have a problem with the post at all.... when you bring up captive hatched importing.... well, it's a bound to get interesting! :lol:

Welcome back by the way! :lol:

And congrats on the Candy.... are the hets sugar free? :lol:


Thanks for the welcome back. BG can see he's starting to grow on Sputty. He must be stronger than others.:lol:

I am glad you liked the fruit basket, planted those myself....

I generally tend to stay away from gay rallies and AAA meetings, so I doubt we will ever meet.

Being liked is nice, glad you had the chance to experience it.

I don’t know your friend Ian, but if he is bringing in WC/W Hatched stuff he is a dip-shit, you will be known by your friends hy Biggie.

Damming importing as a whole is hypocritical, like has been said, without it you guys would still be playing with yourselves or corn snakes and I would prob be dead from puff adder bites...but there must come a time to stop, when the profit to be made from one more rare morph out of Africa is not worth the damage when the entire species is taken out of the hobby by greed.

Let’s get together , sing Kum ba ya and burn these parasitic bastards right out of the hobby!

THE B

PS-has Neil sorted out his Pinkie Penis problem yet.

Well where do you go Beast? These AAA meetings and gay rallies are getting to be a DRAG (pun intended).:lol:

PP problem all figured out. All 12 inches of the problem.:lol::lol:

According to Larry and BT, Nascar and cow riding shows (I believe he called then ro-da-o’s) are apparently interesting for the more distinguished crowd so I guess that puts you otta luck man...
THE B
Glad its all sorted out man, and wow 12 in wart...that has gotta be some kind of record, hy do you guys have Riplies in the US?

Neil i've never met you but I find your posts funny and some even meaningful:cheers:

I have never yet seen a study that said ball pythons were endangered in the wild.
The numbers of captive bred animals has never been enough to supply the pet trade in the US. Just because some breeders have to suggest euthanizing babys they produce doesn't mean there is no market. It means there is no market they have found, or will sell to.
I keep seeing people post here saying how they refuse to sell to pet stores, I'm guessing that would make THEM flippers to sell to pet stores. SO where will they get the snakes to sell? From imports.
If breeders do produce a lot of normal babies, then a lot will get sold wholesale to other sellers, and stores. Then people start screaming "Flipper!! Flipper!" becuase someone else is selling snakes they did not produce.
In an ideal world, all the snakes bought as pets would be bought directly from the breeder, and all breeders that breed would have enough buyers to never need to consider "where will this baby go?". But the world isn't ideal. One day we'll get it close enough to satisfy, but right now it's not.
There's still a lot of cool animals that do come imported in from africa. They don't seem to be the CH cheap babys though. They are special things snapped up by a importer who got a pic of it from the seller in africa. The general CH imports are normals, rarely anything special. But really special new genetics DO come in every year.
I don't mind imports, as long as the wild population is okay, and all studies I've seen have indicated that wild populations are fine, and as long as they are properly cared for. CH are NOT the same as CBB babys, and require more attention and care. That's why I normally get all CBB babies, unless someone I know and trust has the CH and have already gotten them feeding and settled in. As I produce more babies and sell them, I doubt I'll be picking up any babies, unless they look like something REAL special, or if it's a known morph I want to add into a project.
And for the record, I'm always up for meeting anyone in person and talking snakes. If they turn out to be a buttwipe in person, I'll walk away.
Oh.. and AAA is the travel people.. I wasn't aware they had meetings.

According to Larry and BT, Nascar and cow riding shows (I believe he called then ro-da-o’s) are apparently interesting for the more distinguished crowd so I guess that puts you otta luck man...
THE B
Glad its all sorted out man, and wow 12 in wart...that has gotta be some kind of record, hy do you guys have Riplies in the US?

No worries for Big Gunns.... he has Pimp Daddy Neil for that. Oh yeah...the BLBC hasn't met Pimp Daddy yet have they?:lol:



Yah mean Ripley's right Beast? Yeah we got it. You''ll find Big Gunns on many a page:lol:

Neil i've never met you but I find your posts funny and some even meaningful:cheers:

Big Gunns always says. "You're gonna hate me till you love me".

Along with his "arrogance only bothers the weak" BG has never come up with anything more true.

If only BG could have come up with the saying that he runs his life by. "actions speak louder than words". Always remember that my many fans. Never judge someone by what they say....judge them by what they do.

You're all gonna have a real problem though. Big Gunns is addicting. You'll wake up every day just waiting to see what BG said next. You'll check the forum befoe you go to bed. You old dogs will check it when you get up in the night to pee because of your prostate troubles. :lol:The weak will never admit it, but they will. :cool:There has been many a fellow forum loser that has gone into Big Gunns withdrawal when Big Gunns fails to post. Big Gunns knows this by the amount of fan mail(pm's) he gets when he's gone.

To the BLBC Big Gunns says. :yourock: Big Gunns has made 99.9% of you honorary members of the Big Gunns army. Uniform is 1980's style basketball shorts and a wife beater for the guys.....and what else. String thong bikini for the ladies, but not around BG, his HA gets kinda jealous.:lol:


HA= Healthy anorexic.

I have never yet seen a study that said ball pythons were endangered in the wild.

I don't mind imports, as long as the wild population is okay, and all studies I've seen have indicated that wild populations are fine,


Good to hear since I was unaware that there was any actual legitimate research being done on wild ball pythons (at least not since richard shine). Would you mind posting some citations or links to those studies?? I wouldn't want to presume that quite a few of the african countries are absolute shit for enacting/enforcing conservation when there is clear evidence otherwise.....

~Kat

Good to hear since I was unaware that there was any actual legitimate research being done on wild ball pythons (at least not since richard shine). Would you mind posting some citations or links to those studies?? I wouldn't want to presume that quite a few of the african countries are absolute shit for enacting/enforcing conservation when there is clear evidence otherwise.....

~Kat

Here's the only one I know about.

http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/study-royal-python-ghana.pdf

The author of the study also has a DVD out as well that you can find here.

http://stevegorzulapresents.com/products.html

Good to hear since I was unaware that there was any actual legitimate research being done on wild ball pythons (at least not since richard shine). Would you mind posting some citations or links to those studies?? I wouldn't want to presume that quite a few of the african countries are absolute shit for enacting/enforcing conservation when there is clear evidence otherwise.....

~Kat

Fascinating stuff! It appears that bigunn's school thread is going to metamorphose into something of academic interest afterall...

Wolfyhound, please do post those non-detriment citations. I'm also keen to lay eyes on them. Thankyou very much.

My mind is open. I'm willing to follow the lead here and simply forget about the fact they were considered vulnerable and thus listed in Appendix II some 34 years ago, as well as forget the USFWS's recommendation some 15-ish years ago that imports of these from at least one range country be cut off due to concerns over the high volumes of trade without sufficient biological data for Scientific Authorities to make the necessary judgments that exports are not detrimental to the species..

Here's the only one I know about.

http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/study-royal-python-ghana.pdf

The author of the study also has a DVD out as well that you can find here.

http://stevegorzulapresents.com/products.html

This is the same old (around 10-12 years old) study that the USFWS's petition to cut off imports generated. This study has been called flawed by critics.

Let's wait and see those other citations Wolfyhound has sight of.

This is the same old (around 10-12 years old) study that the USFWS's petition to cut off imports generated. This study has been called flawed by critics.

Let's wait and see those other citations Wolfyhound has sight of.

Like I said it's the only one I know about. What critics are calling it flawed? Do you have documentation proving that it is flawed? Can you list sources?

My face has been called flawed by critics but there is some disagreement on that and at least my wife still likes it.

I should have know it would be Gorzula. Just downloaded the pdf, I'll read it after dinner tonight. Just skimming, though, I find it immensely interesting that the study was funded by the japanese government...

~Kat

That's the main one I read, but there's another one done a few years later(it mentioned that one in it). I'll try to dig it up.

Like I said it's the only one I know about. What critics are calling it flawed? Do you have documentation proving that it is flawed? Can you list sources?


Other researchers, of course. However the study's conclusions have to be accepted, because that is how CITES works. More below.



My face has been called flawed by critics but there is some disagreement on that and at least my wife still likes it.


As I recall, at one of the COPs some 15 years ago, the USFWS petitioned to cut off exports from a range country for the reasons I mentioned earlier. The petition was politely withdrawn after it was promised that the data would be gathered. As she mentioned earlier, CITES is rife with politics, ineptness, footsy playing and politely taking the questionable word of various third world governments, as gospel. Iow, toothless given the range countries have to ratify everything. This gospel appeared a few years later as the promised data. The researchers admitted it is not representative. (Admission does not make the study not representative) An analogy would be drawing the conclusion there is no need for johns to use condoms, from a Nevada funded a study that insinuates all US sex workers are disease-free after researchers tested six sex workers in each of California's 58 counties, as negative. Not to mention complaining that testing sex workers in other counties nation wide would take too long.

I apologize.. the other one I have is also by Gorzula, it's the release of the paper based on his studies. I'll have to check with my aunt to see if she has another one, but both the ones I have here are by him. It's from about 1997. The other stuff I have available right now are the anectdocal of "When collecting, we're finding just as many or more" type stuff, so it's basically opinions.
It appears I fail, and based the opinion on the one survey done, and on opinions.
Of course I'll keep looking.

Sorry, a few items I dug out(do you realize how many studies have been done on sea kraits??)
Togo re-allowed trade in ball pythons to the US,
http://www.epa.gov/EPA-SPECIES/1995/May/Day-19/pr-267.html

I believe that these two links are both to the same Gorzula article, just hosted on diff sites, but one doesn't always work. Just in case someone wants to read the most extensive study done on wild populations.
http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/study-royal-python-ghana.pdf
http://www.stevegorzulapresents.com/study_royal_python_ghana.pdf

Another study(in Benin) that seems to state there is still a large trade, although less now for the pet trade, and more for the meat trade. In one spot it said populations had gone down, but that numbers had gone up. It also said that males outnumbered females, and the ratio was 1.1?? So I dunno if I'm just not reading it correctly after midnight, or if it really doesn't quite make sense in spots.
http://www.notesdecologie.bj.refer.org/document.php?id=574
"It is still possible to observe high number of wild ball pythons but only in localities where they are worshipped." So yes still high populations in areas, and I would "ASSUME" that in others the populations are low.
It's vague. And my eyeballs are bleeding from slogging through the "Pythons are invading Rhode Island because I found one in my son's bedroom and he doesn't know how it got there" stories.
Hope this was helpful.

Oh.. and AAA is the travel people.. I wasn't aware they had meetings.
Dam, aint that weird, they are the people that help hermaphrodites (People that were born with a his and hers...) settle into a normal community over here...

I have never yet seen a study that said ball pythons were endangered in the wild.
Keeping it that way is the entire point...
Mark my words, if this keeps going at the same rate they will be soon...

Just to illustrate my point, here is a short story to illustrate the African mentality.
Friend of mine had a milk farm in Zimbabwe. He was producing 80% of all the milk used in his province, the place was massive and one of the most economical farms in Africa (and prob the world...) he had the works, German engineered cooling tanks, 10ns of thousands of milk cows in pristine condition etc. His workers all had satellite tv, a first class education system for their kids and many went to college.
3 years ago 100ds of 16 year old war veterans (from a war 30 years ago...) took over the farm in a process called land reform (basically government sanctioned thievery where white owned farms are stolen and given to black people).
Him and his family were ordered (By a snot nosed 16 year old runt) to leave their world (his family have lived on the farm for 4 generations) within 30min and get out...
He flew over the farm 18 months later, it was producing ZERO litres of milk as all the cows had been killed and eaten, the house was nothing but a few walls, they just broke everything else but the best part was that they were using the 10 Million $ Cooling systems massive tank as one big shit house, they banged a hole in the top and just squatted over that...

This may sound totally off the point, but what I am trying to illustrate is that 90% of Africa thinks like this (or worse), you really think they care about conserving a small ground dwelling snake so a couple of guys in the US can have them as pets...
WAKE UP FOOL!!!

Keep importing you money hungry weasels, we will see how long the ball hobby lasts.
I will say it again The ONLY way that this is sustainable is if wild populations are kept healthy, the Africans cant/wont/don’t care about how to do it, so it is up to US, the ball (Python)lovers!!!!
THE B

Keep importing you money hungry weasels, we will see how long the ball hobby lasts.
I will say it again The ONLY way that this is sustainable is if wild populations are kept healthy, the Africans cant/wont/don’t care about how to do it, so it is up to US, the ball (Python)lovers!!!!
THE B

You said it yourself, the Africans don't care about conserving the wild populations. So it seems to me that whether the balls get imported over here or not isn't really going to make a difference, as they'll still be harvested for meat and skins anyway. The change needs to happen in Africa, not the US.

The change needs to happen in Africa, not the US.

Agreed, African accountability needs exercised, not perpetual victimology.

Well the good news is according to the Gorzula paper is there is plenty of Ghana python meat to eat, and endless supply if it is to be believed. We'd better let the UN know so they can shift their food operations to the truly needy..

Alright after a rather wasted 30 minutes going through the Gorzula paper (and here I will point out that Gorzula did virtually NONE of the 'research', he was just the guy they reported to, the actual authors are owned by the govt of Ghana), There are quite a few gems in this one.

One point to note is that this is strictly a CITES report, it has so little 'research' and statistical fact that it would NEVER make it into a peer-reviewed journal (which is the foundation of good science in the developed world). Gorzula, btw, is know to favor economic development over solid research, which is partly why his CV covers a wide range of topics (brittle stars?), none of them in depth. This entire paper is a monument for trying to sound legitimate when you are anything but (just throw in a random t-test and some big words).

I'll start by pointing out that according to this paper, the entire wild population and it's stability was determined from 207 individual pythons captured in the wild and a subset of already captured bps. Stop and think about that one. They spent 9 months and roughly 40k (I assume that includes the bottles of schnapps and the $3 bribes) to find 207 wild bp's. They then go on to cite sources that say 'finding snakes and cryptic species is hard' so they can justify the lack of data. Yes, it's hard, but not impossible. It requires legitimate methods (which they mention) such as pit-trapping, but which they also pawn off as being too time consuming and costing too much. So ultimately, they just drove around from district to district, bribed the chiefs and borrowed a 'trapper', then if and when they finally found a snake, they said equivalent of "Oh, we found a snake, they must be present and since we found it, the local population must be just fine". The entire methodology is complete bullshit. They didn't even collect enough field data for a presence/absence survey of the country, much less a comprehensive demographic.

And who the hell is Ron Tate of Dyersburg, TN, that he would be the 'legitimate' source cited from the US?? Dyersburg?? Seriously?

So, anyway, for you nitpickers in the crowd, lets go section by section on this one.

1.1 - paragraph 1, "After laying, it was found that the females were weak and did not feed easily. They were therefore given to the Ghana Wildlife Department for release back into the wild. There is no information as to whether they survived after release." There is also no information on whether they were released at all, how long after laying they were released, or whether they took them out back and fed them to the crocs, for fun. Excellent management policy.

Paragraph 3 lays out some seemingly reasonable guidelines for ranching, but makes no mention of how, or if, this was ever enforced in any way at all.

The export numbers are interesting, but I have to wonder if they line up with our import numbers, or if they were just made up in the first place. I'd love to see proof of any of this data outside of 'because we said so'.

1.2 I love that they were supposed to look at 3 species and instead blew the wad on regius and had to backtrack on their objectives at the end.

1.3 demographic data of Ghana, laying the framework for the economic support provided by harvesting snakes, and thus, the impetus for it continuing at as high a level as possible (we'll get to this later in the paper).

2.1 Oh wait, lets not bother with surveying the country, lets focus on 4 areas in the south and say that those represent the entire country.

2.2 Go take a good look at those given localities on the map, add a 5 mile radius and plot them on your map, then come back and tell me you find those dots are 'representative' of the entire country.

2.3 international relations (AKA break out the schnapps).

2.4 Field Methods - paragraph 1 This would be where they whine about how hard it is to survey snakes and how even an experienced researcher would be lucky just to step on one. Aw shucks. But wait a second, aren't you dudes using experienced trackers who do this for a living?
paragraph 2 - nice little comparisons to adders in SCOTLAND - because of course the idea is the same, right? Not a legitimate comparison, nice try, though.
paragraph 3/4 - Gotta love a plug for the boss. Cause he's an expert and we site another one of his old papers that also never made it to peer-review. I love that they redirect attention at museum expeditions, which is essentially where some cracker from the new world shows up in the country of interest and tries to find something of interest to his museum. But wait a second, aren't you authors locals?? Locals using pro trappers?? Yet another comparison that is anything but. Gotta love the number of misdirects this paper uses. They manage to say a whole lot about very little.

Paragraph 5 - here are some legitimate methods, but we are much too busy traveling and drinking schnapps with the chiefs to bother with spending a week pit-trapping and acquiring legitimate data.

6- I also love this part. They say, well since we've just told you how absolutely impossible our job is, we did not expect to find a single snake. n which case, they'd just use the ranches for data (Cite the boss again). But oh, wait!! We found 207 wild pythons!! So the populations must be thriving!! And this is more than pro field biologists will ever see (No, no it's not).

I can go on, if you'd like an interpretation of the rest...... I love that the authors couldn't determine sex on the smaller bps, so they just take the trappers word for it. And how they lose a snake and say they only collected 206 or 202 farther down in the paper. And how the t-test shows skewed ratios of the sexes they couldn't determine, but it's not a statistical error and no serious explanation is given (aside from, whoops, one of the males we sexed just laid eggs). And how Bp sex is determined by temperature during incubation and on and on and on........

My respect for CITES just went down 2 more notches....


~Kat

You said it yourself, the Africans don't care about conserving the wild populations. So it seems to me that whether the balls get imported over here or not isn't really going to make a difference, as they'll still be harvested for meat and skins anyway.

Why do I keep hearing this?? 'If we didn't take 'em, someone else will'. Total feed the greed mentality. You think these countries could continue to export at the levels they currently are if a big chunk of that market was cut off and had to be redirected? Maybe for a year or two, but nothing like it is now. As long as we enable it, nothing will change. Otherwise, what is the point? Lets just tell them, 'Oh hey, you guys need to get your shit together and manage your resources.. oh and don't forget to put a few extra in my next shipment"

Not a solution.
~Kat

Why do I keep hearing this?? 'If we didn't take 'em, someone else will'. Total feed the greed mentality. You think these countries could continue to export at the levels they currently are if a big chunk of that market was cut off and had to be redirected? Maybe for a year or two, but nothing like it is now. As long as we enable it, nothing will change. Otherwise, what is the point? Lets just tell them, 'Oh hey, you guys need to get your shit together and manage your resources.. oh and don't forget to put a few extra in my next shipment"

Not a solution.
~Kat

Note: I'm not ranting at you, Chris. I've just been hearing variations on this theme a lot recently....

Note: I'm not ranting at you, Chris. I've just been hearing variations on this theme a lot recently....
Good to hear, I was about to rant back! :D I wasn't trying to make out that we aren't part of the problem, but more that in the end it DOES have to come down to the government over there stepping in and actually handling some sort of regulation. I work with a guy who's wife grew up in South Africa, and every year when they take a trip over there to visit her family, he comes back with the same kind of stories that the Beast up there was talking about.

Good to hear, I was about to rant back! :D I wasn't trying to make out that we aren't part of the problem, but more that in the end it DOES have to come down to the government over there stepping in and actually handling some sort of regulation. I work with a guy who's wife grew up in South Africa, and every year when they take a trip over there to visit her family, he comes back with the same kind of stories that the Beast up there was talking about.

We cannot change anything unless we change ourselves and until they do that and we do that it shall continue as is. I'm not apposed to importing, but I am apposed to "Mass" importation and importing adult and gravid adults. But I doubt anything will change when a dollar stands between it.

We cannot change anything unless we change ourselves and until they do that and we do that it shall continue as is. I'm not apposed to importing, but I am apposed to "Mass" importation and importing adult and gravid adults. But I doubt anything will change when a dollar stands between it.


Well stated....
Kevin Stoltz

Some great posts in this thread..

I honestly believe we are currently in the process of changing ourselves. The overall attitude towards importation in regards to WC gravid females has really changed over the last few years. My guess is the numbers are probably already in decline because of this.

As the reptile market more specifically the ball pythons continues to adjust, I'd like to think the demand for WC gravid females will sharply decrease as well..

Some great posts in this thread..

I honestly believe we are currently in the process of changing ourselves. The overall attitude towards importation in regards to WC gravid females has really changed over the last few years. My guess is the numbers are probably already in decline because of this.

As the reptile market more specifically the ball pythons continues to adjust, I'd like to think the demand for WC gravid females will sharply decrease as well..

I think so too.... be interesting to see the data number of gravid imports over the years.

So it seems to me that whether the balls get imported over here or not isn't really going to make a difference, as they'll still be harvested for meat and skins anyway. The change needs to happen in Africa, not the US.

The Us is the main importer of balls, so it is the main problem IMO. If the US stops importing balls that would cut off say 85% of the harvest of balls in the Wild.

Agreed, African accountability needs exercised, not perpetual victimology.
Good luck with that, I think the last time an African took accountability for anything was back when Noah built his ark.
This is just the point, African people DO NOT CARE about wild life (well 90% of them don’t), they have bigger things to worry about, like who is going to kill me today or what can I steal to feed my kids this afternoon...Just simply saying its not my problem is only going to lead to the end of the hobby as we know it (try getting your hands on a red listed animal), is it your problem now?...

THE B

Why do I keep hearing this?? 'If we didn't take 'em, someone else will'. Total feed the greed mentality. You think these countries could continue to export at the levels they currently are if a big chunk of that market was cut off and had to be redirected? Maybe for a year or two, but nothing like it is now. As long as we enable it, nothing will change. Otherwise, what is the point? Lets just tell them, 'Oh hey, you guys need to get your shit together and manage your resources.. oh and don't forget to put a few extra in my next shipment"

Not a solution.
~Kat

A man of great intelligence it seems, thanks for using your noodle!:rockon:

but more that in the end it DOES have to come down to the government over there stepping in and actually handling some sort of regulation.
The government in Africa is about as efficient as a anorexic at a all you can eat contest.
Case in point. SA’s new president is: a Convicted rapist (2 accounts) and has 385 SEPERATE cases of corruption against him totalling up to who knows how many millions...So these are the people you want to “control” the ball populations in the wild...
PS-South Africa is regarded s one of the TOP African countries, so who knows what is going on in the part that actually has wild balls...

Like I said, I understand the need for importing and I am not damming the process (how do i justify having Retics/burms etc if I did), I am just saying that there is only a finite number in the wild, it is time to close the tap, otherwise the tank will run dry and we will be back to playing video games...
You can’t love this hobby and not care about conservation, the one goes hand in hand with the other, perhaps that is the mark of the true scumbag...what is more important, conserving balls for the future or your own pocket?
THE B
PS-I love Africa, it is F’ed up to the wazoo, but I love it, where else do you work bribes into your company’s annual budget....

@ Janeofthejungle.
Just read your large post and gotta say AMEN!!!
That is prob going to be used for the next 100 years to justify the exploitation of balls...
THE B

There is alot of good info in this thread, thanks to those who have brought out stuff I have never read (even if it is all BS)....


You can’t love this hobby and not care about conservation, the one goes hand in hand with the other

:yessir::cheers:

Quote:
Agreed, African accountability needs exercised, not perpetual victimology.


Good luck with that, I think the last time an African took accountability for anything was back when Noah built his ark.
This is just the point, African people DO NOT CARE about wild life (well 90% of them don’t), they have bigger things to worry about, like who is going to kill me today or what can I steal to feed my kids this afternoon...Just simply saying its not my problem is only going to lead to the end of the hobby as we know it (try getting your hands on a red listed animal), is it your problem now?...

THE B

I wrote that "African accountability needs exercised, not perpetual victimology". I didn't write "it is not our problem", I wrote exactly what I said and I stand by what I wrote. It is my contention that accountability is a far more desirable goal than this endless victimological drivel and accomodation of same I see promulgated. At best, this kind of patronising accomodation breeds greater dependence; at worst, it creates papers like the paper being discussed in this thread that facilitate the continuance of large scale exports.

Regards the ball python trade specifically, expecting the US to arbitrarily (in this case based on suspicion of detriment) simply single out and cut off ball python imports is unrealistic because CITES does not work that way. When a range country issues CITES permits that are legally in order, they are to be accepted as bona fide, no matter the farcical nature of their derivation... That is part of the fiduciary that CITES signatories agree to. Next throw international politics on the pile, and we have a complicated mess.

If the US people want a definitive solution, toughen up, step up to the plate and pass morality-driven legislation that ends all pet trade wild caught reptile imports. I'd support it in a heart beat. It would unleash captive breeding from price-point tyrants like Petco et al and give reptiles a much deserved enrichening of intrinsic value. We have sufficient enough specimens of the various (legal) taxa to move captive breeding forward.

If the US people want a definitive solution, toughen up, step up to the plate and pass morality-driven legislation that ends all pet trade wild caught reptile imports. I'd support it in a heart beat. It would unleash captive breeding from price-point tyrants like Petco et al and give reptiles a much deserved enrichening of intrinsic value. We have sufficient enough specimens of the various (legal) taxa to move captive breeding forward.

No thank you, we have enough issues with bogus legislation being thrown around left, right and center. I think the more people continue to not support the demand for imports the better, and it does seem to be happening. So in effect we are slowly regulating the hobby ourselves without legislation.

No thank you, we have enough issues with bogus legislation being thrown around left, right and center.


Well for fun, I'm open to explore this.
What aspects of such legislation would earn it the label of bogus, in your opinion?

Why specifically would you oppose it? Is the reason solely good ol Yankee dislike of legislation? :)

As I said, I would support such a move but I'll add it would have to be well written to address the instantaneous availability of "captive bred" specimens from Africa shortly after its becoming law. Yes, we'd soon see miraculous captive breeding out of Africa, much the same as a sudden African ability to produce "captive bred" adult Malacochersus tornieri by the hundreds as has occurred.


I think the more people continue to not support the demand for imports the better, and it does seem to be happening. So in effect we are slowly regulating the hobby ourselves without legislation.

I think the economy and market saturation are at play more than we would like to believe.

Well for fun, I'm open to explore this.
What aspects of such legislation would earn it the label of bogus, in your opinion?

Why specifically would you oppose it? Is the reason solely good ol Yankee dislike of legislation? :)

As I said, I would support such a move but I'll add it would have to be well written to address the instantaneous availability of "captive bred" specimens from Africa shortly after its becoming law. Yes, we'd soon see miraculous captive breeding out of Africa, much the same as a sudden African ability to produce "captive bred" adult Malacochersus tornieri by the hundreds as has occurred.



I think the economy and market saturation are at play more than we would like to believe.

You may of read it wrong, "bogus" as in what is being put on tables by animal rights groups now and in the past with success.

Why would I appose it? I don't want government or legislators sticking their nose any further into this hobby then they already have it. Being they have the power to affect us greatly, but lack the knowledge to do what is fair and right.

I just wouldn't support it.... there is the probability of animal rights getting involved with fear driven lies, misinformation and their agenda. We have a hobby that is feared by those that know nothing about it imo. I just wouldn't want our hobby to come under un-needed scrutiny to stop one aspect of it. One thing can lead to another....imo

Quote:




I wrote that "African accountability needs exercised, not perpetual victimology". I didn't write "it is not our problem", I wrote exactly what I said and I stand by what I wrote. It is my contention that accountability is a far more desirable goal than this endless victimological drivel and accomodation of same I see promulgated. At best, this kind of patronising accomodation breeds greater dependence; at worst, it creates papers like the paper being discussed in this thread that facilitate the continuance of large scale exports.

Regards the ball python trade specifically, expecting the US to arbitrarily (in this case based on suspicion of detriment) simply single out and cut off ball python imports is unrealistic because CITES does not work that way. When a range country issues CITES permits that are legally in order, they are to be accepted as bona fide, no matter the farcical nature of their derivation... That is part of the fiduciary that CITES signatories agree to. Next throw international politics on the pile, and we have a complicated mess.


That is EXACTLY what I was trying to get across in my post, only worded much better. :cheers:

One thing to consider too... bearded dragons seem to be darned numerous, but I've heard a lot of times from beardie folks about how they can't get any new bloodlines since the australian government closed any exporting. Would that happen with ball pythons? Why would it not? Are the bearded folks just talking through their butts? I don't know, I'm not a bearded dragon person.

I firmly believe that if the african countries said "You can't export ball pythons any more" that all the people currantly collecting snakes/hatching eggs from wild caught gravids would simply turn to killing them as bush meat. Why should they stop collecting the snakes? If they don't care one whit about the animals, they'd still see them as a resource to make money, just (I'd assume) less money than if they sold them for the pet trade.

(I assume that because if they could get MORE money for meat than for pets, they'd already sell them as food instead).
And there ARE good people in african countries.. despite all the bad. I just have to put that out there, since there's a lot of bashing of african people going on. It's just that one bad person does a heck of a lot more damage than one good person can fix.

The U.S. cannot prevent Ghana from collecting ball pythons. Australia closed exporting their animals, which stopped the US from importing them. The same would have to happen for the african countries too.
Self-regulating by producing and SELLING true CBB baby ball pythons is truly the easy answer to me. If we as breeders can supply quality animals at a low price to sellers and buyers, then they "may" decide to take the "Born in the USA" hatchlings, rather than risk getting imports that might not eat, have a stigma of being imports, and have been stressed by shipping overseas. But that does mean that we have to provide the supply! We should find WHERE people buy baby balls. If 75% of people buy baby balls from pet stores, we need to either change it, or supply them with CBB babys to sell. If a pet store has a demand for balls, and the only place to get baby balls is imports, that's where they'll get them.
Education is always key. Almost every issue in the herp hobby ends up coming down to educating the public, educating the breeders, and educating the sellers. It's also hard to tell a person that the snakes he's been collecting are more important than feeding his family. Give him another way to feed his family. There are already some programs out there helping change bush meat hunters to other ways to survive. We'd need more of those to change snake collecting for pets/meat to something else.

One thing to consider too... bearded dragons seem to be darned numerous, but I've heard a lot of times from beardie folks about how they can't get any new bloodlines since the australian government closed any exporting. Would that happen with ball pythons?

"Would that happen with ball pythons?"

Well, I think that is an interesting, long term question. It probably would not go well in the long term without direct steps taken to address the issue.

Ball python males breed readily, so I've noticed this is a driving factor in breeder's strategies; ie the over-representaion of single males appears to be common practice. Male ability to breed multiple females as governance in long term breeding strategies, is cringe-worthy.

One thing to consider too... bearded dragons seem to be darned numerous, but I've heard a lot of times from beardie folks about how they can't get any new bloodlines since the australian government closed any exporting. Would that happen with ball pythons? Why would it not? Are the bearded folks just talking through their butts? I don't know, I'm not a bearded dragon person.


"Would that happen with ball pythons?"

Well, I think that is an interesting, long term question. It probably would not go well in the long term without direct steps taken to address the issue.

Ball python males breed readily, so I've noticed this is a driving factor in breeder's strategies; ie the over-representaion of single males appears to be common practice. Male ability to breed multiple females as governance in long term breeding strategies, is cringe-worthy.
Hey Guys,
You cannot even remotely compare the problems Bearded Dragon breeders are having with what could happen if Ball pythons were not imported any more. First off Australia has never allowed exportation of any of its Reptiles. All of the Australian Reptiles now here in captivity are descendents of Zoo stock that was released to the general public mostly in Germany. Some were smuggled out but none were actually released for the pet trade. There are no distinct Morphs either. All of the Bearded Dragon Color Morphs are Selective or Line Bred animals. With Ball pythons there are literally 1000’s upon 1000’s imported every year and they have been for the last forty years or so. Not to mention every morph is a whole new bloodline when introduced to another Morph. You will never have those kinds of problems with Ball Pythons. http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/thumbsup.gif

Hey Guys,
You cannot even remotely compare the problems Bearded Dragon breeders are having with what could happen if Ball pythons were not imported any more. First off Australia has never allowed exportation of any of its Reptiles. All of the Australian Reptiles now here in captivity are descendents of Zoo stock that was released to the general public mostly in Germany. Some were smuggled out but none were actually released for the pet trade. There are no distinct Morphs either. All of the Bearded Dragon Color Morphs are Selective or Line Bred animals. With Ball pythons there are literally 1000’s upon 1000’s imported every year and they have been for the last forty years or so. Not to mention every morph is a whole new bloodline when introduced to another Morph. You will never have those kinds of problems with Ball Pythons. http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/thumbsup.gif

i second that coherent observation.
ck

No thank you, we have enough issues with bogus legislation being thrown around left, right and center. I think the more people continue to not support the demand for imports the better, and it does seem to be happening. So in effect we are slowly regulating the hobby ourselves without legislation.

Amen :yessir:

Hey Guys,
You cannot even remotely compare the problems Bearded Dragon breeders are having with what could happen if Ball pythons were not imported any more. First off Australia has never allowed exportation of any of its Reptiles. All of the Australian Reptiles now here in captivity are descendents of Zoo stock that was released to the general public mostly in Germany. Some were smuggled out but none were actually released for the pet trade. There are no distinct Morphs either. All of the Bearded Dragon Color Morphs are Selective or Line Bred animals. With Ball pythons there are literally 1000’s upon 1000’s imported every year and they have been for the last forty years or so. Not to mention every morph is a whole new bloodline when introduced to another Morph. You will never have those kinds of problems with Ball Pythons. http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/thumbsup.gif

Great post Albey as always :D

No thank you, we have enough issues with bogus legislation being thrown around left, right and center. I think the more people continue to not support the demand for imports the better, and it does seem to be happening. So in effect we are slowly regulating the hobby ourselves without legislation.

See now my question is, is there enough of us that oppose the mass importation of ball pythons that we could make a difference (I really do hope so BTW) as opposed to the people like Kat pointed out (in the JNJ thread) http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82036 who want to go from their ONE ball python (probably a CH pet store baby no less) to buying a bag or (god forbid) a crate of 1000 ball pythons straight out of Africa.

I really really do hope that we can make a difference but I think that for every one of us who actually does see the continued importation of hundreds of thousands of animals as a bad thing there's another 2 people right behind us who are wondering how they can get their hands on a big lot of imports.

Just my .02 (well maybe .01 me being a newb and all :D)

See now my question is, is there enough of us that oppose the mass importation of ball pythons that we could make a difference (I really do hope so BTW) as opposed to the people like Kat pointed out (in the JNJ thread) http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82036 who want to go from their ONE ball python (probably a CH pet store baby no less) to buying a bag or (god forbid) a crate of 1000 ball pythons straight out of Africa.

I really really do hope that we can make a difference but I think that for every one of us who actually does see the continued importation of hundreds of thousands of animals as a bad thing there's another 2 people right behind us who are wondering how they can get their hands on a big lot of imports.

Just my .02 (well maybe .01 me being a newb and all :D)

With the morphs available now, and continuing to increase the need for normal imports just isn't there like it used to be. I think there is a decreasing demand for them if the price on imports in the classifieds each year is any indicator.

Like I said before, it would interesting to see the numbers imported over the last 3 or 4 years.... but it would be hard to get an accurate figure I'd think. It's not so much apposing it, there seems to just be a natural drift away from it.... imo. Once people realize there is little chance of getting anything else other then a normal, they prefer to spend their money on the morphs.

With the morphs available now, and continuing to increase the need for normal imports just isn't there like it used to be. I think there is a decreasing demand for them if the price on imports in the classifieds each year is any indicator.

Good call Scott :yourock:

The thing I was getting at though and maybe I didn't phrase it correctly is, are there enough people that are brand-spanking, slap your momma new to the hobby that want to get imports and is there enough of a demand out there for what basically EVERY time are going to be normals that people are always going to want imports? Or, as I hope is the case, can we get out the word with real compelling arguments against mass importation, importing adult animals and importation of gravid females NOW before those people continue supporting that industry? And what do we have to do to get that message out there to the people that would otherwise be buying CH or imported balls?

I just want to be clear I'm definitely against importing I'm just trying to play devils advocate somewhat here.

Hey Guys,
You cannot even remotely compare the problems Bearded Dragon breeders are having with what could happen if Ball pythons were not imported any more. First off Australia has never allowed exportation of any of its Reptiles.



Complete prohibition of exports occurred by 1960; not 'never'.




All of the Bearded Dragon Color Morphs are Selective or Line Bred animals. With Ball pythons there are literally 1000’s upon 1000’s imported every year and they have been for the last forty years or so. Not to mention every morph is a whole new bloodline when introduced to another Morph. You will never have those kinds of problems with Ball Pythons.

There is that word, 'never', again. Given today's breeding practices and the hypothetical, permanent closure of all imports, it would not be a question of if, but a question of when the unpleasant effects of inbreeding depression rears its head. A generation or two of ball pythons could pass and thus the de facto loss of the founding specimen pool taken for granted in your post. Meanwhile, rampant inbreeding occurs on its merry path towards production of morphs.

My observation re over representation of males is salient; long term-minded breeders would be wise to address that oversight no matter the hypothetical scenario above.

Regards the ball python trade specifically, expecting the US to arbitrarily (in this case based on suspicion of detriment) simply single out and cut off ball python imports is unrealistic because CITES does not work that way. When a range country issues CITES permits that are legally in order, they are to be accepted as bona fide, no matter the farcical nature of their derivation... That is part of the fiduciary that CITES signatories agree to. Next throw international politics on the pile, and we have a complicated mess.


I wanted to clarify what I wrote here. CITES signatories of course have the right to enact their own stricter domestic regulations; my point was, as a single-species piece of legislation, I think it unlikely for the foreseeable future. I won't use, 'never'..:devil:

See now my question is, is there enough of us that oppose the mass importation of ball pythons that we could make a difference (I really do hope so BTW) as opposed to the people like Kat pointed out (in the JNJ thread) http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82036 who want to go from their ONE ball python (probably a CH pet store baby no less) to buying a bag or (god forbid) a crate of 1000 ball pythons straight out of Africa.

I really really do hope that we can make a difference but I think that for every one of us who actually does see the continued importation of hundreds of thousands of animals as a bad thing there's another 2 people right behind us who are wondering how they can get their hands on a big lot of imports.

Just my .02 (well maybe .01 me being a newb and all :D)


Along with with Scott already said, I think that with education of what the situation over there is, it will become more detestable to more people and further decrease the people willing to buy these imports or support people the likes of JnJ. It's already very easy to get CB normals for very cheap at shows, at close to what people are charging for CH or imports. I think the more we inform the "newbies" about what happens with these animals and what is likely to happen with the population of them in Africa, the less the business practices of these mass importers will be tolerated or supported. It's not always a valid argument that if we don't buy them that someone else is in line to pick up the slack. For every person that doesn't buy them, that's profit lost and less that will be imported. Each person can make an impact, especially when they voice their views on the topic. Just my 2 cents.

For every person that doesn't buy them, that's profit lost and less that will be imported. Each person can make an impact, especially when they voice their views on the topic. Just my 2 cents.

Nice Job man, that's pretty much what I think right there in those few lines above.... we each make an impact, kind of like voting. Each vote counts! :yessir: