If you care to answer David, here is your own thread.

Here is the link to the questionable transaction:

Link (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150366&highlight=Dedrick)

Sent this message to David.

David,
I think it would be better for you to answer the questions here on this new thread in the industry watchdog section of this site. At least give your side of the story. Either way, it does not look good for you but it looks worse that you are not addressing the issue.

There is not enough room on here. Below is the link to my response. For the record, I think it's inappropriate that this questionable thread was started by someone that I have never done business with. I didn't think it was common practice for moderators of this site to regurgitate all of the accusations published on line. It might be more understandable if every BOI post was reposted here... but I'm to Brigadier General, so when in Rome...

http://heresyourresponse.blogspot.com/

There is not enough room on here. Below is the link to my response. For the record, I think it's inappropriate that this questionable thread was started by someone that I have never done business with. I didn't think it was common practice for moderators of this site to regurgitate all of the accusations published on line. It might be more understandable if every BOI post was reposted here... but I'm to Brigadier General, so when in Rome...

http://heresyourresponse.blogspot.com/

David, you havent been around here long enough to understand how the BLBC works obviously. We dont tolerate people with questionable business ethics here. I did not accuse you of anything other than what was posted by the person who DID have a business transaction with you. I simply posted a link. No one regurgitated anything except for you. If you dont like the way we do business here, dont come back. The BLBC isnt for everyone.
:yes:

Way too much stuff to break up over the phone, but here are a few things I noticed.

1. You stated I gave you my dad's business number. You're full of shit, I emailed you my cell number just in case it was not stored. It was before you shipped anything that I received a call at my dad's business.

2. When I stated I found it odd they would decompose from an overnight trip, that was me questioning if they were indeed only in the box overnight. Let's not use your apparent illiteracy to twist my words.

3. I made absolutely no request as to what company you should ship with.

4. I already explained why I refused to deal with you by phone. Much like my third statement, it allows you to make things up without me having proof of anything otherwise. There is no "chasing me down." I never went anywhere, never changed my address, and never changed my email.

5. When I asked if you hatched the snow, I was obviously not trying to "blackmail" you out of it. I clearly stated that I did not expect one, and was only curious if you hit the odds. I even stated I would add cash on the axanthic...

6. The spam email - I'm sure most people have at least heard of getting a virus that sends out spam to your contact list. I had it, and was not aware until David told me I "better stop" sending him links. I changed my password and the problem was gone. You can even see a few emails from my contacts in the "sent to" on that email. Funny thing is, after my account sent that email he began to personally forward spam to me in retaliation.

That's about it for now. Let me know if there are any issues you'd like me to address.

Also, I re-read the part about him shipping again. I didn't check my personal emails or BOI post to confirm dates, but if that is the case then I must have somehow misunderstood his email as me getting them tomorrow when he actually said they'd be shipped tomorrow. That was definitely an error on my end, and I in no way purposely did that to make him look bad.

So, with that said, I feel I should apologize for my apparent illiteracy. :o

I do not feel that takes away from the validity of the issue at hand, though.

Sorry for the triple post. I'm reading/posting by phone, so I keep noticing new things and wanting to hurry up and address them. From now on I'll not go back over his blog unless someone has a specific discrepancy that they would like me to address.

Just seen the part regarding the phone calls. At the time I received the email stating we had talked once on the phone, I had never talked with him over the phone. We did later talk on the phone, and I never denied that. David's argument is - once again - him not being able to properly read my emails/posts.

besides all this bs containing he said she said and all this bla bla bla it boils down to 4 dead animals in a shipment and a never givin alive arrival guarantee.

both sides are equally right if u ask me.

the seller used a shipping company he never used before and therefore didnt guaranteed anything.

the buyer received 4 dead animals.

the seller gave buyer (till now) about 50% of the value in cash back.



in my eyes u guys should let it go by now. both paid in the end about 50/50 for this bad lesson.

the buyer learned never buying animals if theyre not guranteed to be alive by arrival and the seller learned the lesson not to use different shipping companies.


in these days u guys could just use ship ur reptiles, pay a couple bucks more and both of u are on the safe side.

Live arrival is implicit, unless explicitely stated otherwise. Nobody buys something with the expectation that it will be DOA. Any RESPONSIBLE seller will honor that. Otherwise, what prevents unscrupulous sellers from shipping out dead animals?
(This comment isn't directed at David, but is a generalized statement)

Live arrival is implicit, unless explicitely stated otherwise. Nobody buys something with the expectation that it will be DOA. Any RESPONSIBLE seller will honor that. Otherwise, what prevents unscrupulous sellers from shipping out dead animals?
(This comment isn't directed at David, but is a generalized statement)

Nothing prevents unscrupulous sellers from shipping out dead animals except not buying from them. Honest dealers giving a live arrival guarantee still doesn't prevent unscrupulous dealers from shipping out dead animals.

I do agree that it is important to be a responsible seller. In my efforts continue to be a responsible seller; I will only ship using FedEx overnight. By using this company, that has proven to be a responsible shipping company, I am able to give a guaranteed live arrival. That is one of many very important lessons that I have learned from this situation.

(Off topic, and I am not referring to this situation with Tommy.)

I have heard accusations that some buyers change their mind during shipping and purposely sabotaging the snakes upon arrival in order to get a refund. Either they decided that they paid too much, needed the funds for something else or they found other animals that they prefer to put their money towards. We all know that there is bad blood between certain breeders (it's all over these forums and the BOI). I have even heard accusations of a third party getting involved specifically to make a purchase ending in a DOA in order to help their buddy start a smear campaign or eliminate competition. (Thankfully, this has never happened to me.)

To be clear, I have only heard accusations of these things happening; I have not asked for or seen any hard evidence of it actually happening. Just speculating, but what are your thoughts on how to protect sellers from unscrupulous buyers (if, in fact, they do exist)? With everyone giving a live arrival guarantee, it wouldn’t cost a malicious buyer a dime to do these things. We look to the sellers to be responsible in all aspects. We put the burden of proof on them to show that they have been responsible and used due diligence in every aspect of the sale and shipping. It’s automatically assumed that all buyers are truly victims when the sale goes bad, but what if (and I realize that it’s a BIG “what if”) they aren’t. What is the proper procedure, or course of action that a seller should take if they feel that they are the victim? How would one go about proving this?


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zvDInHoVnYE/Tr1Vp_8bx_I/AAAAAAAADM4/SSw8BpzXP7E/s576/2010-05-20%25252008.58.38.jpg?gl=US

I do agree that it is important to be a responsible seller. In my efforts continue to be a responsible seller; I will only ship using FedEx overnight. By using this company, that has proven to be a responsible shipping company, I am able to give a guaranteed live arrival. That is one of many very important lessons that I have learned from this situation.



So i would have had a guarantee if you had decided to go with FedEx? That sure would've been nice to know, as there was no mention of it. You asked if I had used SYR, I said I had several times with no problems, and that was the end of it. I remember you sounding weary of using it, but I never stated you had to or even mentioned it as a preference - you brought it up, and I simply stated I had used it before.

I honestly don't even care about the lost money. I've lost far more over far dumber things (like my $10,000 G-Stripe in a breeding loan). And you know what? I never asked that person to reimburse me so much as a dime. They owned up to the problem, and I let it go because they were in a rough spot in their life. My problem with you is you want to take your lack of terms and use them as an excuse because things didn't go your way. That is why I decided to bring this back up - your ads don't state whether you guarantee live arrival or not, and not many people bother to ask. You can skate by on thousands of easy transactions to keep up that solid rep, and then as soon as something unexpected happens it's right back to "oh, but I didn't guarantee that." I'm just here to prevent that.

As for buyers remorse, that's a complete joke. I can point you to a good $60,000 in transactions with me as the buyer, and you are the only seller I have a problem with. Not the only one where a transaction has gone south, but the only one that has 100% lost any faith I ever had in them.

There is NO live arrival guarantee with FedEx, there is one with SYR.

Jeana, what are you talking about?!?! This has NOTHING to do with that the shipping company offers. At the time, SYR was using UPS and offered no live arrival guarantee.

I was talking about me personally offering a live arrival guarantee.

It is true that they offer that now, with conditions
From the SYR website: “ShipYourReptiles Insurance covers the cost of your shipment if it's delivered late, and it covers the value of the animal if it's delivered late and dead.”

Late was not the problem, dead was. SYR didn’t have all the fancy bells and whistles 3 years ago that they do now. If you read the entire back story involved in this post, you would know that. You may want to go back and read the original BOI post by Tommy (and all of the lovely commentary there) then read the post I put up of my black eyed snake on the bush league hognose forum that reignited this, then read my blog response, come back here and read this thread… and then feel free to comment some more once you are fully up to speed.

FedEx has a GREAT track record with me for getting my animals to their destination, alive. That is why I feel comfortable using them and offering a personal live arrival guarantee when I use them. That’s all I was saying. My personal live arrival guarantee completely trumps anything that a shipping company does, or doesn’t offer.

Since you joined this sight about 3 years ago (when this was all happening) and you are averaging a little over 15 posts a day since then, I can only assume you read very quickly… so it shouldn’t take you long to catch up.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you are fully informed.

Tommy, I have more than owned up to my part in things and even tried repeatedly to make it right. I think it’s funny, that you keep coming back with these little comments that bring us closer to the truth and further from your original account of things on the BOI post.

In your original post you lead people to believe that the first time we ever spoke on the phone was after the snakes arrived. Then later you start to back peddle. I had never even heard of SYR until you asked me use it (before shipping). Now you are even admitting that I sounded leery about using them. Hmmm, maybe that is why I told you that I would, but not with a live arrival guarantee!

If you want to follow me all over the web and take screen shots of all of my sale posts to be sure that I am giving a live arrival guarantee, then please, be my guest.

As for the rest of your comment about buyers’ remorse, I flat out said “(Off topic, and I am not referring to this situation with Tommy.)”

Paranoid? Or maybe compulsively suspicious?

You need to learn to read. I stated that we never talked on the phone before that specific email, not before the snakes arrived. And you never stated you'd use them only without a guarantee. You asked what I thought of them, and I gave you my opinion. Feel free to ask anyone - and I mean anyone - else I've bought from what I've suggested about shipping. They'll tell you nothing, as I have zero preference so long as it arrives legally and living.

You also haven't owned up to anything. You're constantly trying to pass the blame to me, by stating it was due to my "lack of planning," falsely stating I forced you to use a specific company, and now outright lying by saying you told me you wouldn't guarantee them.

This is exactly why I refused to deal with you by phone.

Bring us closer to the truth?

Truth - I bought snakes from you
Truth - they arrived dead
Truth - I was never told you wouldn't guarantee live arrival
Truth - I was accused (over the phone) of killing the snakes myself
Truth - on several occasions you asked me if I was and/or accused me of being friends with Mitcham, I stated no every time, and yet you accused me of trying to screw you because we're buddies (who's the paranoid one again?)
Truth - every time I tried to accept a replacement snake, it was suddenly sold or no longer available

I can keep going, if you'd like.

Jeana, what are you talking about?!?! This has NOTHING to do with that the shipping company offers. At the time, SYR was using UPS and offered no live arrival guarantee.

I was talking about me personally offering a live arrival guarantee.

It is true that they offer that now, with conditions
From the SYR website: “ShipYourReptiles Insurance covers the cost of your shipment if it's delivered late, and it covers the value of the animal if it's delivered late and dead.”

Late was not the problem, dead was. SYR didn’t have all the fancy bells and whistles 3 years ago that they do now. If you read the entire back story involved in this post, you would know that. You may want to go back and read the original BOI post by Tommy (and all of the lovely commentary there) then read the post I put up of my black eyed snake on the bush league hognose forum that reignited this, then read my blog response, come back here and read this thread… and then feel free to comment some more once you are fully up to speed.

FedEx has a GREAT track record with me for getting my animals to their destination, alive. That is why I feel comfortable using them and offering a personal live arrival guarantee when I use them. That’s all I was saying. My personal live arrival guarantee completely trumps anything that a shipping company does, or doesn’t offer.

Since you joined this sight about 3 years ago (when this was all happening) and you are averaging a little over 15 posts a day since then, I can only assume you read very quickly… so it shouldn’t take you long to catch up.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you are fully informed.

David, don't be an ass. I have read the full backstory and am completely aware of all the crap spouted off back and forth on this site and Fauna. As far as how long I have been a member, why don't you check how old this site is.....I have been here virtually since the beginning and am one of the senior members. Guess what buddy, 3 years ago, shoot, even 5 years ago I was shipping reptiles and offering a LIVE ARRIVAL GUARANTEE.

The reason I stated what I did was because this statement:

I do agree that it is important to be a responsible seller. In my efforts continue to be a responsible seller; I will only ship using FedEx overnight. By using this company, that has proven to be a responsible shipping company, I am able to give a guaranteed live arrival. That is one of many very important lessons that I have learned from this situation.



makes it sound like your Live Arrival Guarantee is linked and based on FedEx a "responsible shipping company", and not to you a responsible seller. Your Guarantee has NOTHING to do with what company you ship with, but with YOU THE SELLER.

makes it sound like your Live Arrival Guarantee is linked and based on FedEx a "responsible shipping company", and not to you a responsible seller. Your Guarantee has NOTHING to do with what company you ship with, but with YOU THE SELLER.

:yes::yes::yes::yes:

makes it sound like your Live Arrival Guarantee is linked and based on FedEx a "responsible shipping company", and not to you a responsible seller. Your Guarantee has NOTHING to do with what company you ship with, but with YOU THE SELLER.

i dont quite undestand that.

whats wrong with the statement from him?

he only trusts fedex and only uses them. because he had made many shippings and everything was right from the fed ex part hell guarantee that the snakes will arrive alive.

nothing wrong with in my book.


he doesnt know how other shipping companies work so hell guarantee nothing.



that isnt wrong in my book. he isnt responsible for the way THEY ship. he only can pack em correctly- then everything is in the hands of the shipping company. he has no control anymore.


take this example. u sell heatcables. u let them build by the same company for years and all work perfectly.

now a customer wants that u use another company u dont know cause u never worked with them- would u guarantee anything?

ok- to make it more fitting- these heatcables cost 1400$ a piece


same thing.


as i said- both have learned a lesson- both took in the end about the same lost (money wise). they should let it go.

If, as a seller, you can't guarantee live arrival because of your lack of experience with a particular delivery service, don't use them. Period. You are in the business of selling LIVE animals. Period. If you can't or won't guarantee live arrival, you have no business selling live animals.

If, as a seller, you can't guarantee live arrival because of your lack of experience with a particular delivery service, don't use them. Period. You are in the business of selling LIVE animals. Period. If you can't or won't guarantee live arrival, you have no business selling live animals.

Actually it is up to the buyer if they want to get live animals from a seller who does not offer a live arrival guarantee. Its not up to you, me, or anyone else, to deside who should be selling snakes or not.

Actually it is up to the buyer if they want to get live animals from a seller who does not offer a live arrival guarantee. Its not up to you, me, or anyone else, to deside who should be selling snakes or not.

Legally that may be true.
But here on the BLBC we hold ourselves to a higher standard.
People who don't offer a live arrival shouldn't be selling live animals.

Actually it is up to the buyer if they want to get live animals from a seller who does not offer a live arrival guarantee. Its not up to you, me, or anyone else, to deside who should be selling snakes or not.

If, as a seller, you can't or won't guarantee live arrival, that should be stated loud and clear in all of your advertisements. I have seen it regularly with some amphibians. That beimg said, live arrival is, or should be, the minimum standard. If you can't do that, you should be selling dry goods.

Legally that may be true.
But here on the BLBC we hold ourselves to a higher standard.
People who don't offer a live arrival shouldn't be selling live animals.

:yes:

Legally that may be true.
But here on the BLBC we hold ourselves to a higher standard.
People who don't offer a live arrival shouldn't be selling live animals.

Sing that gospel brother! :master::master::master::yes::cheers::rockon:

I tend to agree , i shipped an N amyae knobtail gecko and it was Doa , i never said Live arrival guarantee , yet i gladly send a second one free of charge and it got there and the customer is happy. I just cant see myself screwing someone over because i never mention no live arrival .

Legally that may be true.
But here on the BLBC we hold ourselves to a higher standard.
People who don't offer a live arrival shouldn't be selling live animals.

:rolleyes:Be real dude. It is up to the buyer to figure out who he/she wants to buy from. Not you, me, or anyone else here on BLBC. People will sell what they want with whatever guarantee they want. Where does this "higher standard" of yours stop? Why not just say people who do not offer a 2 week health guarantee should not be selling live reptiles? A live arrival is the choice of the seller. It is not a standard. Something that important to the buyer should be address by the buyer if it is that much of a worry.

I would not buy from someone who does not offer a live arrival and I would not ship an animal without a live arrival but if someone does not offer one, that is their business, not yours, Buck. It does not make them a bad person if they dont. It just means they do not care if they sell their animals or not.

:rolleyes:Be real dude. It is up to the buyer to figure out who he/she wants to buy from. Not you, me, or anyone else here on BLBC. People will sell what they want with whatever guarantee they want. Where does this "higher standard" of yours stop? Why not just say people who do not offer a 2 week health guarantee should not be selling live reptiles?

Really? Maybe you should get real and not put words into people's mouths that are not there.... c'mon man. That's lame and you know it.



I would not buy from someone who does not offer a live arrival and I would not ship an animal without a live arrival but if someone does not offer one, that is their business, not yours, Buck. It does not make them a bad person if they dont. It just means they do not care if they sell their animals or not.

Gregg, it's a higher standard that you can see other people agree with.... if you don't get it, then you just don't get it. Roll your eyes all you like, argue the opposite all you want.... but it is a standard people do agree with here. No biggie if you don't understand where people are coming from or appreciate that view.... or maybe you do.

As always though, people should know who they are buying from. Like you, I wouldn't buy from someone who doesn't offer a live arrival either....

As always though, people should know who they are buying from. Like you, I wouldn't buy from someone who doesn't offer a live arrival either....

So then you do see where I am coming from.

I agree that you should not buy from someone who does not offer a live arrival guarantee. To me, anyone who does is a fool. However, and I am sure you can agree as well, we can not and do not decide for the masses that a person should not be selling animals if they do not offer a live arrival. That is purely a personal opinion.

My point with the health guarantee was that ther are breeders who will offer a 2 week health guarantee. Even some chain pet stores do. That is a high standard but not one that all of us have to follow. Infact, most do not.

And the whole "here at BLBC" is a bit silly to start a reply with. This forum is a place with different people, with different ideas, and different opinions on subjects. Do you think everyone here agrees with everything anyone says here? Sure, there will be sheep that blindly follow, but the majority dont follow just to hang with the "in crowd"...

However, and I am sure you can agree as well, we can not and do not decide for the masses that a person should not be selling animals if they do not offer a live arrival. That is purely a personal opinion.


I'm not sure when this became a point of contention? :dunno: Why would anyone argue against that? :dunno: We don't decide for the masses, but do give our opinions on people selling animals without a LOG...

The point of contention I see, was people selling live animals with no guarantee... and I agree, if you don't offer one, then as you said earlier, they don't care, which means for me that you shouldn't be selling them. That's an opinion being expressed by a number of people.... so maybe there is no disagreement? LOL


And the whole "here at BLBC" is a bit silly to start a reply with. This forum is a place with different people, with different ideas, and different opinions on subjects. Do you think everyone here agrees with everything anyone says here? Sure, there will be sheep that blindly follow, but the majority dont follow just to hang with the "in crowd"...

I don't see what any of that above has to do with anything?
:dunno:

and I agree, if you don't offer one, then as you said earlier, they don't care, which means for me that you shouldn't be selling them. That's an opinion being expressed by a number of people.... so maybe there is no disagreement? LOL

Not caring if you sell your animals does not equal not caring about them. Not offering a live arrival does not equal not caring for your animals. I can tell you that everything I have ever heard about Davids animals and how he keeps them is nothing but good. Well cared for and healthy. Bad stuff happens to the best of us. David said he told Tom that there was no live arrival due David not being comfortable with the shipping company requested. If this is the exact truth, no one really knows but Tom and David.

I have a few animals for sale but dont care if they sell or not. I would be just as happy keeping them as I would selling them. Does that mean I dont care about them? I think it means just the opposite.

I agree with a lot of what is being said here. I just do not agree with the elite attitude some have and people talking bad about someone because they do not do everything by this imaginary book of higher standards. I feel there should be binding industry standards set but it just has not happend as of yet.


I don't see what any of that above has to do with anything?
:dunno:

Here is what I was refering to.

Legally that may be true.
But here on the BLBC we hold ourselves to a higher standard.
People who don't offer a live arrival shouldn't be selling live animals.


Sing that gospel brother! :master::master::master::yes::cheers::rockon:

So saying "here on BLBC" is implying that everyone here has the exact same opinion on this topic. You can hold yourself to any standard you like, but you can not expect everyone to go by what you say.

Not caring if you sell your animals does not equal not caring about them. Not offering a live arrival does not equal not caring for your animals.

No it doesn't, just not something some people here like.... can't blame em!



I agree with a lot of what is being said here. I just do not agree with the elite attitude some have and people talking bad about someone because they do not do everything by this imaginary book of higher standards. I feel there should be binding industry standards set but it just has not happend as of yet.

I agree with what Claude said about a higher standard here.... not everyone will. Yet, I'd hardly call Claude and elitist... am I an elitist too? :eek:I don't see how... I don't think I'm better then anyone else here just because of a view point. :dunno:




So saying "here on BLBC" is implying that everyone here has the exact same opinion on this topic. You can hold yourself to any standard you like, but you can not expect everyone to go by what you say.

Really, geez.... have a good one Gregg. :cheers:

Apparently Gregg you still don't understand what this forum stands for.

I agree with a lot of what is being said here. I just do not agree with the elite attitude some have and people talking bad about someone because they do not do everything by this imaginary book of higher standards. I feel there should be binding industry standards set but it just has not happend as of yet.

Here is what I was refering to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckskin View Post
Legally that may be true.
But here on the BLBC we hold ourselves to a higher standard.
People who don't offer a live arrival shouldn't be selling live animals.



So saying "here on BLBC" is implying that everyone here has the exact same opinion on this topic. You can hold yourself to any standard you like, but you can not expect everyone to go by what you say.

By my statement I was saying what we are trying to instill in the membership here.
Not that all are there yet.

Some may tell lies .
After all there is no written industry standard against it.
Does that mean we shouldn't encourage honest behavior .

You said...I feel there should be binding industry standards set but it just has not happend as of yet.

The people we want here don't need an industry standard to do what's right.

Apparently Gregg you still don't understand what this forum stands for.

I get it Ron. Its the fact that every time you turn around the views seem to get more militant and strict.
What you dont understand is that not everyone here has to agree with everything said, member of this site or not. I do not think many people will agree that a seller is bad because they do not offer a live arrival especially if they are not comfortable with the shipping company.

Scott, do I actually think that you, Claude, Ron or anyone else here are elite? No. I do not even feel you think you are. However some of the things said around here can make it look as if that is the case. Maybe it is just the way it is said.

And remember, we can all be guilty of feeling we are better than someone else in some shape, form, or fasion. It is human nature to do so. So to say you do not feel you are better than anyone else is just not 100% true. There are many people out there that you are indeed better than. There is nothing wrong with knowing that. How you handle that knowledge is what is important. I personally think you do a fine job handling that knowledge.

Someone who does not offer live arrival has no less of a right to sell reptiles than you, me, or anyone else in the industry at this time. Now, if there were actual set in stone industry standards against not having a live arrival guarantee, I would be 100% supportive of your argument. Again, right now, it is solely up to the buyer if they want to take the chance or not. Some will take the chance and some will not. Its not for us to decide.

Claude, I know what is trying to be instilled in the membership, but honestly, that is small time. This is just one internet forum. Do you really think everyone who is a member here agrees with everything this place stands for? We as a community, should be thinking on a much larger scale to set industry standards. As huge of an industry this is, we are are not very organized. Things are a hell of a lot better than it was back in the day because of USARK, but we are still not there.

There is no place in any hobby or indusrty for liars but that is a bad comparison to make in this situation. No live arival does not equal liar.

I understand the people you want here do not need industry standards to do what is right. No one should need set standards for that. But not every good guy is going to follow your standards to a T. The standards we have are subjective. Not everyone who buys animals to resell them is a flipper. Not everyone who has to lower the price of their stock to move it is a market crasher. Not everyone who does not offer a live arrival guarantee for what ever reason should be slated for it.

I get it Ron. Its the fact that every time you turn around the views seem to get more militant and strict.
What you dont understand is that not everyone here has to agree with everything said, member of this site or not. I do not think many people will agree that a seller is bad because they do not offer a live arrival especially if they are not comfortable with the shipping company.

Scott, do I actually think that you, Claude, Ron or anyone else here are elite? No. I do not even feel you think you are. However some of the things said around here can make it look as if that is the case. Maybe it is just the way it is said.

And remember, we can all be guilty of feeling we are better than someone else in some shape, form, or fasion. It is human nature to do so. So to say you do not feel you are better than anyone else is just not 100% true. There are many people out there that you are indeed better than. There is nothing wrong with knowing that. How you handle that knowledge is what is important. I personally think you do a fine job handling that knowledge.

Someone who does not offer live arrival has no less of a right to sell reptiles than you, me, or anyone else in the industry at this time. Now, if there were actual set in stone industry standards against not having a live arrival guarantee, I would be 100% supportive of your argument. Again, right now, it is solely up to the buyer if they want to take the chance or not. Some will take the chance and some will not. Its not for us to decide.

Claude, I know what is trying to be instilled in the membership, but honestly, that is small time. This is just one internet forum. Do you really think everyone who is a member here agrees with everything this place stands for? We as a community, should be thinking on a much larger scale to set industry standards. As huge of an industry this is, we are are not very organized. Things are a hell of a lot better than it was back in the day because of USARK, but we are still not there.

There is no place in any hobby or indusrty for liars but that is a bad comparison to make in this situation. No live arival does not equal liar.

I understand the people you want here do not need industry standards to do what is right. No one should need set standards for that. But not every good guy is going to follow your standards to a T. The standards we have are subjective. Not everyone who buys animals to resell them is a flipper. Not everyone who has to lower the price of their stock to move it is a market crasher. Not everyone who does not offer a live arrival guarantee for what ever reason should be slated for it.
You are correct. and not every member of this hobby is a member of this forum. Why? Because birds of a feather flock together Gregg. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Some people are not welcome to be members here. Sorry if that hurts someone's feelings but thats the way it is and you seem to think its your job to defend anyone who isnt welcome here. Why?

I'm not one to chime in on these threads but I will this time. The BLBC to me is a place that I like to think holds it's pride in moral and ethical breeding and selling. A set standard is hard to maintain among so many individual hobbyists and those that make a living in the breeding world. A few posts back some one mentioned that LEGALLY a person isnt obligated to make good on a guarantee if one isn't implied. While I completely agree with this, morally and ethically I disagree. When a transaction goes south and both sides feel they are in the right and a verdict as far as who is right and who is in the wrong can't be agreed on, it's a stale mate. Like most people on this forum I would simply send another animal to replace the one that was DOA but does the seller have to? No, not legally.(which is a shit move, in my opinion)

Just a thought on this accepted standards idea. Although I think it would be fantastic to have a set list of accepted standards in the hobby/business, it's not as simple as a bunch of people getting together, agreeing on something, and writing it down. Even if that happened, we all know everyone won't follow it. And when people don't follow it, what is written down is only good if a court of law says it is. And to be honest, I think a court of law is more likely to accept the testimony of some well respected people in the industry as to what is "accepted standards" than a written set of rules.
Here is an analogy. In the medical world, there is a thing called "reasonable standard of care". Everything in my job is not black and white. Some things are, most aren't. When a lawsuit comes up and malpractice is the issue, a court will first look at written rules. After that, there will be testimony from usually 2 sources. 1. Experts in the field and 2. Peers who work in the same locality as the defendant What a judge looks for or instructs a jury to look for is "the reasonable standard of care". If the testimony of the experts or peers indicate that "reasonable standard of care" was not met, normally this will supersede any written professional rules. Including law in some cases.
My point is this. What is accepted standard in the reptile hobby/business cannot/should not be determined by a small group of people who decide what is/isn't appropriate. We should do what is the "industry standard" You don't have to, but you should. The only time it is going to matter is in court. And I would guess the court would act much the same as it does in medical issues. Attorneys would find some experts and peers and try to determine what is the reasonable standard of care and rule based on that.
Now that is a different issue than this whole elitist blbc issue. To that I say this. Personally, I would label someone bad, or crappy, or whatever label has been applied to those who don't offer live arrival guarantees, but I can tell you I value that persons opinion less. I believe the accepted standard already is live arrival guarantee. If someone operates with below that standard, I just don't value their opinion as much. Is that right? Don't know, but it's fact. And I think that is what the so-called "elitest" here are getting at is that they believe that accepted standard is already in place and if people choose to operate below those standards, then express your opinions in a different forum. Correct me if I've gotten that wrong.
To the specific issue in this thread, noone has mentioned the possibility that David, who says he was uncomfortable with the shipping company that the buyer wanted to use, could have done what I would have done and said no. Don't use the company. If they buyer doesn't like that, buy somewhere else. However, David has the right to do whatever he wants with his animals. Currently there is no law against what he did. The point is, there doesn't have to be a law or written acceptable standard in place for something to be wrong.

I may be wrong, but I would bet that in most states, as far as the law is concerned, Live arrival when selling a live animal is "implicitely guaranteed", if not explicitely. Take it to a small claims court, and see if a judge doesn't uphold it. If there is not a contract explicitely negating a live arrival guarantee, live arrival is expected. Some things don't have to explicitely contracted, they are implied as a condition of the sale. Whether David (in this case) had an oral agreement voiding that implicit guarantee can be debated. But, there are implicit guarantees in most contracts that the courts WILL uphold.

I may be wrong, but I would bet that in most states, as far as the law is concerned, Live arrival when selling a live animal is "implicitely guaranteed", if not explicitely. Take it to a small claims court, and see if a judge doesn't uphold it. If there is not a contract explicitely negating a live arrival guarantee, live arrival is expected. Some things don't have to explicitely contracted, they are implied as a condition of the sale. Whether David (in this case) had an oral agreement voiding that implicit guarantee can be debated. But, there are implicit guarantees in most contracts that the courts WILL uphold.

You are applying common sense to our legal system. Unfortunately our legal system does not in most cases operate on common sense.

Someone who does not offer live arrival has no less of a right to sell reptiles than you, me, or anyone else in the industry at this time. Now, if there were actual set in stone industry standards against not having a live arrival guarantee, I would be 100% supportive of your argument. Again, right now, it is solely up to the buyer if they want to take the chance or not. Some will take the chance and some will not. Its not for us to decide.


Agreed.

My argument is merely my opinion, as is yours. That's all we have to offer on this. :yes:

Agreed.

My argument is merely my opinion, as is yours. That's all we have to offer on this. :yes:

:yessir:

what i really wonder about is how u guys can guaranty live arrival.

its not in ur hands. u have no control.

lets say u ship a 3000$ snake. not everybody can replace 3k of worth that easy.

what if the shipping company makes a mistake and the animals arrive 2 days later- frozen to death.

how can u guarantee that this is not gonna happen???


here in germany our transport is secured by insurance companies, but as i hear it, its not the same in the us.

how can u guys trust the shipping company so much?

i mean u really have 0,0000 influence. u just pack it the best u can and thats it...

what i really wonder about is how u guys can guaranty live arrival.

its not in ur hands. u have no control.

lets say u ship a 3000$ snake. not everybody can replace 3k of worth that easy.

what if the shipping company makes a mistake and the animals arrive 2 days later- frozen to death.

how can u guarantee that this is not gonna happen???


here in germany our transport is secured by insurance companies, but as i hear it, its not the same in the us.

how can u guys trust the shipping company so much?

i mean u really have 0,0000 influence. u just pack it the best u can and thats it...

Yes, you can't absolutely guarantee it will arrive alive.... the guarantee is a money back guarantee if it doesn't or a replacement or some other option if it doesn't make it alive. It's rare for something to not make it alive.... and it depends on the guarantee you the individual offer. There are some variables at play.

what i really wonder about is how u guys can guaranty live arrival.

its not in ur hands. u have no control.

lets say u ship a 3000$ snake. not everybody can replace 3k of worth that easy.

what if the shipping company makes a mistake and the animals arrive 2 days later- frozen to death.

how can u guarantee that this is not gonna happen???


here in germany our transport is secured by insurance companies, but as i hear it, its not the same in the us.

how can u guys trust the shipping company so much?

i mean u really have 0,0000 influence. u just pack it the best u can and thats it...

The thing is Joe, this is a business decision people have made as a close to fool-proof way of protecting your reputation, which is critical in the snake world. As far as not being able to replace a $3K animal, don't forget that everyone that sells a $3K has $3K. I'm not discounting the cost of keeping the lights on, feeders, etc. But for the most part, as rare as losing an animal in shipping is, refunding the money that someone paid us for an animal is not going to break an operation. For the most part, the animals themselves did not cost hard cash, they were produced. Again, I know it costs money to keep snakes, but I think you get the point. If they had to come up with $3K out of their pocket, yes, but in your example the $3K is going to come from the buyer. The seller is just going to give that money back to them.
Now if I were selling banana balls and $250K of them died in shipment, you better believe it would be hard to turn loose of the $250K.
In the end, if an animal dies in shipment, the net effect is the seller loses an animal and the cost of shipping.

dont get me wrong- im not against it. i think its a good thing and we basically have it here too, just that here the shipping company replaces the loss.

i just wonder why u trust the shipping company so much, without having any influence on how they operate to make sure the snakes come in alive

dont get me wrong- im not against it. i think its a good thing and we basically have it here too, just that here the shipping company replaces the loss.

i just wonder why u trust the shipping company so much, without having any influence on how they operate to make sure the snakes come in alive

It's not that we trust the shipping company, it's we Don't have a choice here, and they don't replace a loss....

It's not that we trust the shipping company, it's we Don't have a choice here, and they don't replace a loss....

:yes: And we choose to replace the loss as sellers rather than have the buyer take the loss.