something really weird goes on with them.

i know that 5 mojo tigers have been made by 3 different breeders which are white (look like super mojaves).

but now ive seen 3 other mojave tigers which arent white at all. they look like u would expect em to be.


to top that all of a german breeder made a tiger yb which looks like an ivory. the female yb was a virgin.



this has nothing to do with the desert, but rdr has produced a black eyed lucy from breeding a spotnose to a phantom yb.


how is this possible?

why do we get lucys (blue and black eyed) and ivorys from breedings which shouldnt produce em?

whats going on here?



could it be that deserts have a hidden gene which helps this monosomy thing (NULL) going?

If I had to guess we are probably seeing a stochastisity effect. This is all off the cuff with no more than about five minutes worth of thought but if Desert, Enchi, het BluEL and het Ivory are all genes in a related pathway (or share cross points between pathways) then the level of expression of Desert and Enchi in combination could have the effect of tipping the balance of expression of het BluEL or het Ivory. Like if Desert and Enchi were both PR/Es and their expression levels were higher or the binding site had a minor mutation or something.

If I had to guess we are probably seeing a stochastisity effect. This is all off the cuff with no more than about five minutes worth of thought but if Desert, Enchi, het BluEL and het Ivory are all genes in a related pathway (or share cross points between pathways) then the level of expression of Desert and Enchi in combination could have the effect of tipping the balance of expression of het BluEL or het Ivory. Like if Desert and Enchi were both PR/Es and their expression levels were higher or the binding site had a minor mutation or something.

thanks. exactly the right man for this stuff.

could def. work this way,but if its like this- why does it happen just sometimes?

the german breeder with the tiger yb has made tiger yb's which look like u would expect em to look like too. not in the same clutch tho.


makes no sence to me why it happens just a few times this way and the other times it funtions normally again...

after all these years of captive breeding, we can't discount the possibility that there may have been low grade codoms, or recessive hets, in the ancestry of the breeding stock we are utilizing for our cool new combos.
plus... how about all of the out-of-africa "normal" girls that were utilized to make some of the stock that produced the breeders which produced these new creations ? can we ever be sure what exactly contributed to the inexplicably mutated phenotype that hatches from our eggs ?
too many subtleties in the ball world.
ck

Another possibility is parthanogenesis. All the breedings you mentioned used female het leucistics of one variety or another so its at least a possibility. Statically though it would seem odd for such a rare occurrence to happen in tiger clutches so often.

The deletion/null allele could also explain it but again thats probably a very rare occurance and the high frequency this seems to occur in tiger clutches would seem odd. I have seen at least two cases of this happening for which there really is no other plausible explanation, so it is possible.


Nick

thanks. exactly the right man for this stuff.

Like I said, I was just shooting from the hip, might could be I am wrong. But it is a direction to think on... Could be something more mundane or could be something even further out of left field is going on... Maybe it is Wolbachia :dunno:

could def. work this way,but if its like this- why does it happen just sometimes?

The reason for the sporadic occurrence is that it is a stochastic event. Genes are not expressed at an exact level but at a bell-curve range. It is pure chance what level any given gene in any given animal is going to be expressed at. Most of the time it will fall toward the center of the curve but there are the outside chances where it falls to the far left or far right.

Genes are not expressed at an exact level but at a bell-curve range. It is pure chance what level any given gene in any given animal is going to be expressed at. Most of the time it will fall toward the center of the curve but there are the outside chances where it falls to the far left or far right.

This would also explain a number of other combinations, such as all white or nearly all white spider pieds.


Nick

This would also explain a number of other combinations, such as all white or nearly all white spider pieds.

Yes. The het BluEL Pieds as well.

thats really interesting guys. ill def. keep an eye on this behavior in desert het BEL combos.

maybe well see a white lesser tiger too some day...

Im sure that PE admitted that one of the females used when making Tigers was probably a Russo. If those tigers that were sold were also russo, it would stand to reason that some white snakes popped out when bred to mojaves. Personally I feel that a true tiger mojave with no russo involved will look like just that. A tiger with a mojo pattern, just like we have seen.

Im sure that PE admitted that one of the females used when making Tigers was probably a Russo.

I have never heard this... Maybe we can get Robyn in here to comment...

If those tigers that were sold were also russo, it would stand to reason that some white snakes popped out when bred to mojaves.

Here is the thing though, every Russo x Mojave I have seen has been solid white. And all of these oddities have the purple head one would associate with a SuperMojave. So I am not sure how to reconcile the difference there.

I have hatched quite a few Russo/Mojaves and they are extremely white, actually the whitest of all the BEL combos. This season I hatched 10 BELs and there were super mojos and russo/mojos in the same clutches and its easy to differentiate between the two.


Nick

Im sure that PE admitted that one of the females used when making Tigers was probably a Russo. If those tigers that were sold were also russo, it would stand to reason that some white snakes popped out when bred to mojaves. Personally I feel that a true tiger mojave with no russo involved will look like just that. A tiger with a mojo pattern, just like we have seen.

could be a possibility but i doubt it.

first the reason asplundii and nick mentioned- the white tigers look more like super mojos then russo mojos.

i doubt that the enchi or desert would lead to the head color.

secondly more than 1 animal hatched this way at more than 1 person. iirc 5 animals hatched from 3 different breeders.

would be really a huge coincedence that all tigers would have been het russos too.

the monosomie thing isnt a real possibility too if i understood that correct. it wouldnt happen so often and just in these cases.


however- something is def. going on here. and i think it has something to do with the desert gene.

willi from austria bred a tiger to a yb and got a poss tiger yb which looks like an ivory.

the female was only bred by the tiger in her whole life (the second time this season). so no retained sperm from other animals.

the tiger isnt a tiger yb cause they used em pretty good this year and somewhere in all the clutches would have been a yb or yb combo (plus yb tigers look really different than normal tigers if u ask me).


so- im not really sure whats going on, but there is something going on!!!

dont know why it happens just sometimes. ive meanwhile seen a few other mojo tigers which werent white. not just 1 or 2 and theyre def mojo tigers- not mojo deserts. u just see that.

This whole Thing is really interesting! I will have to experience it on my own! ;)

sorry- didnt read this old thread from the start, so i basically just repeaded myself.