Ok, as if I need something else to work on. I've got a 250 gallon aqaurium that used to be a reef tank in my basement just sitting there doing nothing. (Evidently I'm the only one who wants one that big since I can't seem to sell the thing). :dunno:
Soooo. Can somebody tell me how difficult it would be to set up a breeding colony of frogs in this thing. I'd really like to do dart frogs, but if that wont work for whatever reason, I'm willing to listen to other suggestions.
Here's what I have: About 1200 watts worth of lights that will grow practically any plant (what I used for the reef). Submersible heater. Way more water pumps than would be needed. No top for the aquarium.
So here are the questions I have to start with
1. Is this really to big for a breeding tank? Am I ever going to see them?
2. What kind of frogs can you house together with breeding in mind?
3. Seems logical that I'd have to have a top, but do I? It'll be expensive.
4. What about water? Do they need a pond or water bowls?
5. Live plants or artificial? I'd rather do live.
6. Any suggestions on rarely kept species that I may want to consider?
I don't have any experience keeping or breeding frogs, but I think I've got a pretty good handle on feeding, general husbandry, etc.
That'll get me started I think. If there are other things I need to consider, feel free to throw those in.

Oh Sara!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

Oh Sara!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

Yeah. I just hope she doesn't see this as the perfect opportunity for revenge for all the things I've said about her on this forum. If she does, I'll never be able to wade through it all to get the real answer. And besides I like skinny frogs.:lmao:

This would actually be a fun project. I would focus on producing a nice setup to produce a lush plant growth. The dart frogs can be whatever species you like and you should be able to put quite a bit in there. So how did you do with the reef?

Dan

This would actually be a fun project. I would focus on producing a nice setup to produce a lush plant growth. The dart frogs can be whatever species you like and you should be able to put quite a bit in there. So how did you do with the reef?

Dan

The reef was absolutely beautiful. I had tons of soft and hard corals, inverts, fish, the whole 9 yards. It was up starting with a 125, then moved to the 250. Had it fully up for probably 4 or 5 years. I just got to where I wanted to spend more money on the snakes and the reef was expensive to keep up, so I broke it down. I think over the years, I probably put close to $12K in the thing. It was the maintenance cost that finally made me take it down. I just wanted to use the money on other things. I'd really rather sell the thing, but nobody is willing to pay for it, and I hate just having it sit down there doing nothing.

Oh Sara!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

Yeah. I just hope she doesn't see this as the perfect opportunity for revenge for all the things I've said about her on this forum. If she does, I'll never be able to wade through it all to get the real answer. And besides I like skinny frogs.:lmao:

:devil::devil::lmao:

Actually, in all honesty, the first thing I pictured was a set up that somebody else had put pics up of their darts...

Cover shouldn't be that expensive if you make your own.

That much size you have every option in the world and could do something amazingly beautiful! I'd fill it with cobalts, but that's just me, lol!

I'm going to go see if I can find that link for you.:cheers:

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?t=19851

This one is the first thread, it was broken into two parts.

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?t=19852

Part two.

That is absolutely incredible. Not really possible for me the way they did it. Whatever I do will have to be undoable. This is a $1500 aquarium just by itself and I may sell it someday, so anything permanent will not work. I think all that stuff can be done in a non-permanent way though.
Do they have to have all that water? Or can you get by with less?
What rules are there for housing different species together?
What kind of cost am I looking at for maintenance once it's up and running?
How easy are frogs to sell if I do decide to breed them, or better if they decide to breed themselves?

For sure you can do something like that in not as permanent way, I change my cages up all the time so never do anything that can't be undone. I just like to see change, I guess...

For water it depends on the species, most really do like a fair amount of it.

Depends on the species for housing different ones together, also depends on breeding habits. Some may lay and leave, some "parent" the eggs, etc... you're going to have different aggression levels. Also you have to look at how territorial those species are, and sizes.

Cost of maintenance is low. You're looking at fruit flies or possibly up to small crickets, depending on species. Maybe some phoenix worms as well... But relatively inexpensive.

As for selling, frogs are actually pretty easy to sell, as everybody else is breeding ball pythons, lol! Naw, seriously, they really are pretty easy to move, there are not a ton of people that are working with amphibians and if you look at a frog table at a show it's packed, as there's so few there.

Thank you,
I'd really like to stick to dart frogs if possible.
So in the realm of darts, how many frogs would I start with in a tank that size? (Start out with a lot because they are aggressive to new additions or start with a few and add more later?)
Do you start out with one species and add more later, or if you are going to have several species you need to add them all to start?
Is too much light a problem?
Can you just drive down here once a week and do the maintenance?

Thank you,
I'd really like to stick to dart frogs if possible.
So in the realm of darts, how many frogs would I start with in a tank that size? (Start out with a lot because they are aggressive to new additions or start with a few and add more later?)
Do you start out with one species and add more later, or if you are going to have several species you need to add them all to start?
Is too much light a problem?
Can you just drive down here once a week and do the maintenance?

For how many... depends on the species, same answer to the next question.
Too much light can cause a problem with heat and plant burn, so you'll want to watch that.
And... nope! But, you'll find it's super easy to maintain them, really! And, a nice little tip, toss a bunch of isopods in there, they break down waste and organic matter, they are great little housekeepers, and if the frogs happen to eat them it's not problem they are not toxic. I actually breed two different kinds just because we go through so many for that purpose. People with naturally planted terrariums, be it amphib, tarantula, geckos, even hermit crab, just love em!

OK, now I guess I just need a recommendation for a reliable source of information on the different species. I'm pretty sure I've got most of everything I need except the top, the plants, the frogs, and the food.

I'm pretty sure I've got most of everything I need except the top, the plants, the frogs, and the food.

That only leaves the tank Doc. Oh yeah, you got that. :lmao:

http://s90418222.onlinehome.us/rainforestjunkys.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=6

Not the only person by any means, but one of the few that I deal with. I've never had any problems with any of his stuff, he always shoots straight, and is a font of information. Also if there's a kind you are looking for that he doesn't have, he'll know who does. And, most of all, he's common sense, not neurotic. Don't tell him I sent you though, he'll hang up on you. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

That only leaves the tank Doc. Oh yeah, you got that. :lmao:

I guess you do make a good point.

http://s90418222.onlinehome.us/rainforestjunkys.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=6

Not the only person by any means, but one of the few that I deal with. I've never had any problems with any of his stuff, he always shoots straight, and is a font of information. Also if there's a kind you are looking for that he doesn't have, he'll know who does. And, most of all, he's common sense, not neurotic. Don't tell him I sent you though, he'll hang up on you. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Thank you very much Sara. All the info is much appreciated.

Shane,

Loath as I am to recommend it you may want to check out the DendroBoard forums. Be forewarned that the vast majority of members there are nose-in-the-air snobs but there are some good thread on tank builds. If you can find it there is a "How to make artificial rocks" thread that I am sure would be of great help to you. Give you all the details on how to make pretty awesome rock walls and such that are easy to drop in/pull out.

If you want some advice on how to build a top I would be happy to provide you with the technique I learned from the frog crew at Atlanta Botanical Gardens (they pioneered a lot of the methods that the frog community consider standard today).

You asked about water and Sara touched on it but I want to revisit. I very much advocate the false bottom/sump pump set up. It does seem like a lot of water but you need to consider that these elaborate type tanks are basically closed systems. You want to have that greater volume to help buffer things. The fact that the water is flowing means that you do not have massive accumulation of wastes in one or a few areas, the large volume further dilutes wastes. The flowing, especially if you set up a waterfall or something, also oxygenates the water increasing the microflora that help breakdown the waste.


You also asked about mixing species... If you go to Dendro, never Never NEVER bring that topic up or you will be skinned alive. Many (I dare say most) PDF people are so fanatical about "locality" that they make Nick look tame by comparison. Personally, I do not see anything wrong with mixing species and I have seen many beautiful mixed species exhibits. But, if you plan on selling off surplus, go with species that are not known to be compatible or be ready to meet volatile, antagonistic resistance if you have intergrade forms or hybrids.

Shane,

Loath as I am to recommend it you may want to check out the DendroBoard forums. Be forewarned that the vast majority of members there are nose-in-the-air snobs but there are some good thread on tank builds. If you can find it there is a "How to make artificial rocks" thread that I am sure would be of great help to you. Give you all the details on how to make pretty awesome rock walls and such that are easy to drop in/pull out.

If you want some advice on how to build a top I would be happy to provide you with the technique I learned from the frog crew at Atlanta Botanical Gardens (they pioneered a lot of the methods that the frog community consider standard today).

You asked about water and Sara touched on it but I want to revisit. I very much advocate the false bottom/sump pump set up. It does seem like a lot of water but you need to consider that these elaborate type tanks are basically closed systems. You want to have that greater volume to help buffer things. The fact that the water is flowing means that you do not have massive accumulation of wastes in one or a few areas, the large volume further dilutes wastes. The flowing, especially if you set up a waterfall or something, also oxygenates the water increasing the microflora that help breakdown the waste.


You also asked about mixing species... If you go to Dendro, never Never NEVER bring that topic up or you will be skinned alive. Many (I dare say most) PDF people are so fanatical about "locality" that they make Nick look tame by comparison. Personally, I do not see anything wrong with mixing species and I have seen many beautiful mixed species exhibits. But, if you plan on selling off surplus, go with species that are not known to be compatible or be ready to meet volatile, antagonistic resistance if you have intergrade forms or hybrids.

OH brother, here we are with the hybrid issue again.:lmao: Seems I'm destined to fight this battle forever. Now I think I'll go over there and just make a post to see what I can get stirred up.:lmao: Thank you very much for the info. It is much appreciated.

I have a question about this false bottom thing. Keeping aquariums and reefs for many years, I know that no matter what kind of filtration you have (I've got probably close to $1K worth from that reef), you still have to do water changes because the biological filtration winds up with end products (normally nitrates) that won't be further broken down. How do you go about changing water under that false bottom? Obviously you are not going to break down the entire vivarium to change 10 gallons of water.

Shane,

You also asked about mixing species... If you go to Dendro, never Never NEVER bring that topic up or you will be skinned alive. Many (I dare say most) PDF people are so fanatical about "locality" that they make Nick look tame by comparison. Personally, I do not see anything wrong with mixing species and I have seen many beautiful mixed species exhibits. But, if you plan on selling off surplus, go with species that are not known to be compatible or be ready to meet volatile, antagonistic resistance if you have intergrade forms or hybrids.

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao: I was so nice about not bringing that up, that's why I gave him the link to Novy, he's not so hung up on never allowing more than one species to live together, he says flat out "They :censor: live together in the wild, why can't they in my living room?"

But yeah, serious frog people will tell you flat out that you can't mix copse and grey's tree frogs, absolutely only one species per tank, etc. I've seen a lot of stunning displays that mixed azureus and bumble's, etc.. And haven't interbred either. Not saying that it couldn't happen, but just those particular ones didn't. Oh, and that one also had a couple of anoles and long tail grass lizards in there too!:eek::lmao:

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao: I was so nice about not bringing that up, that's why I gave him the link to Novy, he's not so hung up on never allowing more than one species to live together, he says flat out "They :censor: live together in the wild, why can't they in my living room?"

But yeah, serious frog people will tell you flat out that you can't mix copse and grey's tree frogs, absolutely only one species per tank, etc. I've seen a lot of stunning displays that mixed azureus and bumble's, etc.. And haven't interbred either. Not saying that it couldn't happen, but just those particular ones didn't. Oh, and that one also had a couple of anoles and long tail grass lizards in there too!:eek::lmao:

Now how in the world are we ever going to last in a hobby if people start making long tail azure grass dart frizards? Where are we going? Geez.

Now how in the world are we ever going to last in a hobby if people start making long tail azure grass dart frizards? Where are we going? Geez.

I don't care where we're going... I want one!:rockon::lmao::lmao::lmao:

I don't care where we're going... I want one!:rockon::lmao::lmao::lmao:

I think I can make you one on photoshop. And you won't have to feed it. And you won't have to clean up after it.

I think I can make you one on photoshop. And you won't have to feed it. And you won't have to clean up after it.

Mkae me one, I want to see how it turns out, lol! And, I can feed it typos, so I won't bother correcting the first word I typed.

Mkae me one, I want to see how it turns out, lol! And, I can feed it typos, so I won't bother correcting the first word I typed.

OK. I have to warn you though, if you feed that thing typos, you may be cleaning up the messiest emoticons you've ever seen.:lmao:

Okay, that just made me lol, snort and all!

All right. Not the best artist in the world but here is what I imagine it would look like.
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h424/Qualityserpents/longtailazuregrassfrizard.jpg

All right. Not the best artist in the world but here is what I imagine it would look like.
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h424/Qualityserpents/longtailazuregrassfrizard.jpg

:lmao: :lmao: Wasn't quite what I had in mind but it's good :yes:

Sara, just don't ask for a breeding pair. They are more trouble than they are worth to make.:lmao:

Haaahahahahahahaha! That's cool Shane!

It could be a lot cleaner if I'd spent more time on it, but I didn't want you to have to wait on your new animal. I know you are anxious to start feeding it right away.

It could be a lot cleaner if I'd spent more time on it, but I didn't want you to have to wait on your new animal. I know you are anxious to start feeding it right away.

She will have it up to breeding size in two weeks! :D

I have a question about this false bottom thing. Keeping aquariums and reefs for many years, I know that no matter what kind of filtration you have (I've got probably close to $1K worth from that reef), you still have to do water changes because the biological filtration winds up with end products (normally nitrates) that won't be further broken down. How do you go about changing water under that false bottom? Obviously you are not going to break down the entire vivarium to change 10 gallons of water.

If you get good microflora going the nitrates are generally regulated but you are correct that a flush is warranted now and then. What I do is, when I set up my waterfall, I leave the portion of the hose accessible so that I can attach an additional length to it and pump the water out to a bucket. Generally I flood the tank first, pump it down until the pump is basically sucking dry and then flood and pump again and then I add in the correct amount and unhook the extension. Doing the double flood helps wash out the media a bit and give you a pretty decent clearance of any potential wastes. Depending on the size of the tank I do this every 3 months (for smaller set ups) to once a year (big systems)

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao: I was so nice about not bringing that up, that's why I gave him the link to Novy, he's not so hung up on never allowing more than one species to live together, he says flat out "They :censor: live together in the wild, why can't they in my living room?"

Novy is a good guy though he and I never got off on the right foot. Definitely a good source for information and not having to deal with the melodrama of DendroBoard LOL

But yeah, serious frog people will tell you flat out that you can't mix copse and grey's tree frogs, absolutely only one species per tank, etc. I've seen a lot of stunning displays that mixed azureus and bumble's, etc.. And haven't interbred either. Not saying that it couldn't happen, but just those particular ones didn't.

What finally got me booted from Dendro was me standing up for ABG when people were trashing them for having mixed species tanks. I told them exactly what I thought of their narrow-minded arrogance. I am sure the Dendro crew would have fits if they knew about the "rogue" PDFs that roam ABG. I always loved pointing out the "mint" terribilis to passers by who otherwise would have missed them

Oh, and that one also had a couple of anoles and long tail grass lizards in there too!:eek::lmao:

SACRILEGE!!! Not just mixing species but mixing genera!! Oh the horror of it all!! :lmao: That would be more than enough to induce apoplexy if posted on Dendro

SACRILEGE!!! Not just mixing species but mixing genera!! Oh the horror of it all!! :lmao: That would be more than enough to induce apoplexy if posted on Dendro

I'll bet they don't have any problem with breeding "wobbly" ball pythons though. Since that's a "pure" species, it's ok to do that. Oh boy, did I start that crap again?

OK, Quig. This one was much more difficult. Is this closer to what you imagined?
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h424/Qualityserpents/longtailazuregrassfrizard-1.jpg

OK, Quig. This one was much more difficult. Is this closer to what you imagined?
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h424/Qualityserpents/longtailazuregrassfrizard-1.jpg

I would buy a hundred of those right now!:rockon::master::lmao::lmao:

If you get good microflora going the nitrates are generally regulated but you are correct that a flush is warranted now and then. What I do is, when I set up my waterfall, I leave the portion of the hose accessible so that I can attach an additional length to it and pump the water out to a bucket. Generally I flood the tank first, pump it down until the pump is basically sucking dry and then flood and pump again and then I add in the correct amount and unhook the extension. Doing the double flood helps wash out the media a bit and give you a pretty decent clearance of any potential wastes. Depending on the size of the tank I do this every 3 months (for smaller set ups) to once a year (big systems)



Novy is a good guy though he and I never got off on the right foot. Definitely a good source for information and not having to deal with the melodrama of DendroBoard LOL



What finally got me booted from Dendro was me standing up for ABG when people were trashing them for having mixed species tanks. I told them exactly what I thought of their narrow-minded arrogance. I am sure the Dendro crew would have fits if they knew about the "rogue" PDFs that roam ABG. I always loved pointing out the "mint" terribilis to passers by who otherwise would have missed them



SACRILEGE!!! Not just mixing species but mixing genera!! Oh the horror of it all!! :lmao: That would be more than enough to induce apoplexy if posted on Dendro

Your pump and dump sounds so much easier than my "scoop everything thing out, break everything down, dump, clean, reset up."

I think Novy and I get along well because we have matching vocabulary, lol!

Way to go on letting Dendro know how you felt! I stay away from there, just can't handle the attitude.

And, had to lmao at the Sacrilege comment! Too true!:lmao::lmao::lmao:

I would buy a hundred of those right now!:rockon::master::lmao::lmao:

Well you can have that one for free. You have to hybridize him with the first one, then breed them back until they look like the one you want in order to get more. How do I get in this same thing all the time? You guys are dong this to me on purpose aren't you?

Well you can have that one for free. You have to hybridize him with the first one, then breed them back until they look like the one you want in order to get more. How do I get in this same thing all the time? You guys are dong this to me on purpose aren't you?

LMAO! Of course we are!:devil:
No, not really...:cheers:

Your pump and dump sounds so much easier than my "scoop everything thing out, break everything down, dump, clean, reset up."

Yeah, I got tired of that after a few years and decided to find a way to make life easier. Last time I had to do a full tear down was when the pump went out...

I think Novy and I get along well because we have matching vocabulary, lol!

I am sure Novy and I would have gotten on fine if we just had not gotten off on the wrong foot. I was supposed to call him to discuss P. sauvagii breeding but the day/time we had set I got called in on an emergency at the lab and so I missed it. I emailed him and apologized and asked if we could reschedule. He replied with an email saying "Call me today at X:XX but I did not get that email until after the time he asked. When I explained that to him his reply was that he was irked that I "blew him off twice in a row" and after that I was never really able to make matters right with him. Even though it has been a few years I am hoping that one day he will be at the Hamburg show when I head up there and I can meet him face to face and try and iron it all out. Kind of moot now though since I am down to just one sauvagii

Way to go on letting Dendro know how you felt! I stay away from there, just can't handle the attitude.

And, had to lmao at the Sacrilege comment! Too true!:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Well it is good to know I am in illustrious company here :yes: Anyone who has been shunned by Dendro is a friend of mine :cheers:

OK, Quig. This one was much more difficult. Is this closer to what you imagined?
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h424/Qualityserpents/longtailazuregrassfrizard-1.jpg

That IS more like what I had in mind, but you REALLY didn't have to go through all that trouble. :D

That IS more like what I had in mind, but you REALLY didn't have to go through all that trouble. :D

Actually, that is very fun for me. I'm truly not very artistic normally, but something about photoshop appeals to my left brain and gets it to kick my right brain into gear to do things it normally isn't capable of.
And now you don't have to imagine it, you've seen it.