hey guys just wondering where i can find good info on keeping blue tree monitors I am a total novice when it comes to lizards so need help.

From what I understand, exactly the same requirements as keeping Green / Emerald Tree Monitors & Black Tree monitors, with one caveat---Blue Trees get bigger so could use extra housing space.

Blue Trees are a bit harder to come by, so a google search of Black Tree &/or Green Tree care will yield you some good results. :yes:

One caveat---because Tree Monitors are kind of rarer in the pet trade in general, & the Tree Monitor "family" are still not really being bred, I imagine it'd be very difficult to find a CBB Blue Tree. Especially since Blue Trees are much less common then Green & Black. [ hell, CBB Green Trees are hard to find ] So odds are, you'll only be able to find Wild Caught / imported animals.

If going Wild Caught, I suggest following care guides to a T. The Wild Caught specimens seem to be less tolerant to error then their CBB counterparts. Try to aim for a younger specimen so it can adapt easier, or look for a LTC Blue Tree. Of course, there's a lot of scammers out there, so just cause someone says they're long-term captive, don't take their word for it!

Research, research, research! Best of luck!

---

Another note...you say you're a novice to lizards...I'd really recommend going with a young CBB animal before even attempting a WC import...I've been told Tree Monitors are very sensitive in general, let alone WC! This has not been my experience, but both of mine are CBB, one that I raised from a tiny baby, the other who was raised by a friend from a small baby, who I aquired later, while still young.

I had my heart really set on Blue Trees too, but being that most [ all? ] are WC, I decided it would be best to start with some CBB Green Trees & "get my feet wet" before jumping in head first to something more complicated. & I'm glad I did, saves me a hell of a lot of frustration! [ & worst-case scenario, disappointment & heartbreak, should I have shelled out the money for a WC Blue Tree only to let it die from my inexperience ]

My CBB green trees have been no difficult to care for then any of the other herps I keep. & in some ways, even easier. However, I think the same can not be said for WC specimens... [ but hey, I could be wrong. Just going off of what I've heard & what others have told me ]

Anyway, that's my advice. Take what you want from it, throw out the rest. :yes: ~

Osy about covered it already... I wouldn't start with the blues.

If you are just getting into monitors (let alone a novice to lizards) you may want to consider some of the more readily available captive bred varanids. There's more information out there and breeders, in regards to the easier to keep monitors.
Hate to sound like a broken record, but ackies are the best at cutting your teeth with varanids.
Lurking on forums and going through the archives works well. KS monitor forum, varanus.net and Pro-Exotics can supply you with basic information and tips.

Happy herpin!

Timors are a hoot too, IMO.

thanks guys well this is why i asked so i didnt get in over my head.

thanks guys well this is why i asked so i didnt get in over my head.

It's always good to ask questions! :cheers:

God knows I do a lot of that haha ~

I have to be quite honest here. Blue trees are not particularly hard to keep. They are pretty easy to keep actually. No more difficult than any other varanid. They are very hardy. You will not find any CBB. No one here in the States have successfully bred them yet. You may find captive hatched but that is even rare.

There also seems to be a certain stigma attched to wild caughts. Wild caught varanids normally have no problem acclimating to life in captivity. You just need to offer bluetrees the proper husbandry like all reptiles.

The only thing that makes any varanid species hard to keep, IMO, is cage size requirements. Obviously the larger the monitor the more space it will need.

My female laid a week ago... in the water dish. :(

And, having worked for several years with all the trees (and almost all the monitors in general) I still say the blues are much more difficult. They are much flightier and shyer and stress much more easily, making it a more difficult animal to work with for someone with no experience than one that is going to be more malleable. Just the simple act of trying to catch them for a round of de-worming is likely to lead to mouth infections from smashing into the cage if you don't know how to grab them in the first place, and yes, they are that flighty.

Tell ne Gregg, exactly how many different wild caught monitors have you worked with? How many different species? I won't say that all wc's are difficult but MANY types can be. As Sara stated and I agree blue tree's and tree monitors on GENERAL are not a good beginner species. In 35+ years of keeping various herps I base my opinion on my experiences, not what I have read.

im months from getting anything i want to read about each and talk to a few breeders about different species at the shows coming up thanks everyone.

You will find more breeders on line. Unfortunately majority of show vendors with monitors did not produce them, even if they are definitely captive born. And with some vendor attitudes they will tell you what you want to hear to make a sale; not what you NEED to hear that may discourage you from buying their animal.
Good luck with your research and I can honestly say even when you think you have it down; you will learn something new in regards to varanids. As new information comes out every day from various sources; it makes working with monitors that much more fun and exciting.

Tell ne Gregg, exactly how many different wild caught monitors have you worked with? How many different species?
Not sure why I need to show "credentials" but since you need to know...

How many?
Hundreds.

What species?
V. niloticus
V. ornatus
V. exanthimaticus
V. albigularis
V. salvator
V. cumingi
V. salvidori
V. indicus
V. dorianus
V. finchi
V. rudicolus
V. spinulosus
A few never discribed species from indo.
Blue, Green, and Black trees

I won't say that all wc's are difficult but MANY types can be. As Sara stated and I agree blue tree's and tree monitors on GENERAL are not a good beginner species. In 35+ years of keeping various herps I base my opinion on my experiences, not what I have read.

Not sure why your experience has led you to believe that tree varanids are not a good species to start with. Maybe you just had bottom of the crate crappy imports or you just dont have you husbandry correct.

Telling someone to get an ackie or a "beginner" varanid when they want a blue tree makes no sence at all. Why would you advise someone to get a species they are not intrested in?

Not sure why I need to show "credentials" but since you need to know...

Not sure why your experience has led you to believe that tree varanids are not a good species to start with. Maybe you just had bottom of the crate crappy imports or you just dont have you husbandry correct.

Telling someone to get an ackie or a "beginner" varanid when they want a blue tree makes no sence at all. Why would you advise someone to get a species they are not intrested in?

Why did he ask? I am assuming because you seem to be the absolute authority on everything. And I do mean everything. You know everything about everything and almost everybody else is wrong. You have the ONLY correct information about every reptile, every species, and everything about husbandry. You are the be all and end all of it all. You know it ALL and will argue it until your fingers fall off. We've talked about this before. I've simply come to the conclusion that although you vehemently deny it, you live to argue. You are one of those people that says it's raining when the sun is shining and damn what everybody else thinks or says. Now, that being said, I wasn't aware until quite awhile after that he had posted at all, but I will assume that was why he asked. I could stand corrected. Of course, I have that ability. I can be wrong. And I'll admit it when I am.

However, in this case, I don't believe that I am, nor Bruce, nor the other people that all said not to start with a blue tree. It's just not a good starter varanid.

Now I will say this... Don't you dare ever, ever imply that our animals are in any way, shape, or form not cared for properly. EVER. Between just the two of us we put in over 100 hours a week caring for them. And that doesn't count the others there that are doing the same. And don't insult the people we get them from, the people that set them up, nor the husbandry of them. Do that again and we're going to go rounds man and it ain't gonna be pretty.

Also, try reading again, at no point did Bruce nor I tell him to get an ackie. If you knew either one of us at all, or had read other threads in here you would see that I stand pretty tough in defense of NOT telling someone to get something they don't want. And, quite simply, I don't like ackies. Have two pair, don't care for their personalities. That's just my opinion, a whole lot of people love them. Does it mean I'm wrong or they are? Neither, it's an OPINION.

To the OP... sorry for the jack on your thread. It doesn't happen often, but sometimes it seems to be hard to avoid. Please make your decisions based on a lot of research and your capabilities.:cheers:

I think you guys jumped the gun a bit here. I never argued with anyone. I clearly stated that in my experience tree monitors are not hard to look after and you do not need to be an advanced keeper to keep them. Both you and your husband made this confrontational, not me. I may be much more experienced than you both think I am. I am not new to this. I have kept and bred numerous species of lizards and snakes.

I never said that you are not caring for your animals. I simply said that your husbandry could be off. No matter how experienced we are, we can still be doing things not so right. Chill out a bit. You could very well be doing things wrong with certain species and not know it.

If you think tree monitors are so hard to keep, you are obviously not doing something right. Like I said, in my experience, they are just as simple to maintain as what most people consider a "beginner varanid" They do not have any really special husbandry requirements but what they do require should be met. If their husbandry is not being met, then you will have a tough time with them. It is that simple. A garter snake can be hard to keep if you are not keeping it right.

Being that you are so experienced with tree monitors, why not give a rundown of how you keep them from cage to substrate, temps, humidity, feeding. If the OP wants a blue tree, tell him how to care for it properly instead of trying to scare him from getting one by saying they are hard to care for when they are not.

Jumped the gun? Your implications are extremely easy to read. Am I going to sit here and type out a 3 page thread on how they should be kept? No, that's what books are for.

Chill out? Not when even the implication is there that our animals aren't being cared for properly, not going to happen. That is one thing that we do have in common, I won't "chill out" when that happens.

I'm not going to continue to argue, as that is what you want to do, although you are ever so good at making it look like innocence personified. If 4 or 5 others have all said not to start with them and all you want to do is say they are easy as pie, that's going to be what you say. Doesn't matter what I nor anybody else says, you've got to keep going.. and going.. and going.. and going. I'm not getting pulled into the continuation of one of your "I am right" threads, I've read enough of those to know it's a waste of time.

Again, to the OP, sorry for the hijack, I won't reply again in this thread. I am very sorry it got somewhat derailed, you'll see it happens on occasion.

I suggested the ackies. They are often thrown out as a good example of a beginner monitor. And that's all it was; a suggestion based on my experience and having a genuine concern for the animal and keeper. They are for certain a captive bred species as a opposed to a wild caught one. So naturally one would have less concerns with health and interaction as wild caughts can be dehydrated and loaded with parasites versus a healthy captive lizard. Imports also are skittish and can create an empty cage syndrome while I have experienced ackies being less shy and don't run and hide as soon as someone approaches the cage. They are one of the few that will approach out of curiosity when juveniles.
Why did I suggest it? Well, they asked. No where in the topic heading was it specified to one person to respond. They mentioned they are new to lizards and monitors. I gave my opinion based on experience. You gave yours.
The proof is in the market. If blue trees were easy then the classifieds would be flooded with them. As long as you gauge success with a species based on it's needs to hatch, grow, reproduce and repeat process for future generations; it's safe to say they are not easily maintained compared to others more readily available and being produced often in the US.
The OP doesn't have to agree with everything I say. I do hope they double check and research what has been posted, not just taking random advice and applying it without finding consistencies between sources. But then again, you can't say I didn't put it out there and I am surely not giving them false information, just an opinion that differs from your's Gregg M. That's all, an opinion based on experience and observations.

Am I going to sit here and type out a 3 page thread on how they should be kept? No, that's what books are for.


Ok, if you wont, I will type a few paragraphs. Because that is all you really need to give good husbandry advice on this species. No 3 page thread or books needed.

Here is what works for me and many others who keep the species.

First thing is your cage.
I build my own because I like to provide the space I think is needed, not what I am limited to with commercially available caging.
For a pair of blue trees I suggest a cage about 5 feet long, 3 feet deep and 6 feet high. They are not huge lizards but they can max out at around 4 feet long. You can keep them in a smaller cage but if you can offer them the extra space, you should do it.

You should provide a nice, deep substrate. a foot and a half of dirt/sand mix and a nice thick layer of leaf litter. This will keep a nice humidity gradient in the cage without having to over saturate it or spray it down every day. All you will need to do is dump some water in the cage every 1 to 2 weeks. Maybe less. If you can, provide some insect life. It will help keep the cage clean.

You need to have very high basking spots. 120 to 130 degrees will be fine. Make sure your ambient temps are between 80 and 84 degrees. This is a very important part of monitor husbandry in general.

Offer as many hollow logs, tree limbs, and branches as you can. they need lots of hide spots and climbing area. Also offer a few "nest boxes" down low and up high even if you are not breeding them. Females will lay eggs even if they have never been bred.

When you first get your blue tree it will hide a lot during acclimation. During this period, you should have little to no contact with it. Offer food and water and check on it once in a while. Thats it. There is no reason to have to chase the lizard around the cage, ever. The best treatment for parasites at this point is to give your monitor a stress free environment. When they are stressed, their immune system lowers and they can not fight off parasites. Trying to catch the lizard to worm it will only cause more complications. In fact, we have not wormed a single animal in years and have had much better success keeping them not only alive, but thriving. Eventually, your blue tree will get acclimated and it will eventually not fear you. It will do its daily routine with you looking in its cage. Our blue trees will now climb out of the cage and up on our arms.

Feeding them should not be a problem. Offer lots of insects daily. Roaches, crickets, super worms, are all great. Also offer some small rodents a few times a week.
You should also dust their prey with calcium power. Every feed with straight calcium and use calcium with D3 every 2 to 3 weeks.

Aside from its heat lights, you will also want to offer UV lighting as well. This will help them to process their calcium properly.

And like with most living things, offer clean water for drinking.

A big 10 minutes out of my night and now the OP has the information he was looking for.

Here is a video of how we keep our blue trees. You will also see their behavior when we interact with them and the substrate we use. You will see what females do when they are ovulating. Enjoy the video.

http://youtu.be/DPnpqzliFxc

I have used outdoor halogens floods on monitors and bearded dragons. I never bother with "special" UV bulbs. Especially if offered whole vertebrate prey like mice. To me, that's $ that could go to the food bill or caging instead of a light bulb not truly necessary.

I have used outdoor halogens floods on monitors and bearded dragons. I never bother with "special" UV bulbs. Especially if offered whole vertebrate prey like mice. To me, that's $ that could go to the food bill or caging instead of a light bulb not truly necessary.

I don't know the first thing about blue tree monitors, but I will say that if blue trees are like most lizards in that they cannot synthesize their own Vit D, whole prey cannot be a complete substitute for UV light. Oral calcium and Vit D can never completely do the job. If blue trees are different and can make some vit D, then that would be different. NSHP (Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroidism or Metabolic bone disease MBD) can be very slow to manifest. Even years in some cases where whole prey is fed, but eventually, it will cause a problem.

While they do need supplements on insects (I use Miner-All Indoor), varanids do not require special UV florescent bulbs like say iguanas do. The outdoor halogens do produce small amounts of UVB along with common UVA. But when offered whole prey like snakes are, they do not require supplements or special bulbs. Hell, I've raised and reproduced bearded dragons using the outdoor halogen floods and sifted topsoil. I treated them like monitors except for giving the greens. They went from egg to adult without issue.
I noticed many of the reptilian species that must have full spectrum lighting either A) fed on vegetation or B) did not excavate or use burrows in the ground. Snakes fall under this category and only require whole prey, no special bulbs at all. Varanids have been produced in captivity for generations without those bulbs either. Nearly all the breeders will tell you it is not necessary. I say 'nearly all' because there may be one out there who thinks it's important; I just haven't read his posts yet. lol

All I can say is that with the introduction of UV lighting, I have seen differences in coloration, behavior, and reproduction success. Females rarely if ever slug out and I can not remember the last time we have seen a dead in egg. Before the introduction of UV, we were successful but not as successful.

I look at it like this. If the animals require it in the wild, why should we not offer it to them in captivity. Monitors are diurnal and bask not just to thermoregulate but also to produce D3 in order to process calcium. To me, UV lighting is just as important as their other husbandry requirements because of what I have seen in our own animals.

I can also tell you that since I have been supplementing my snakes with calcium and D3, I have seen a huge difference in reproduction and overall health. :cheers:

All I can say is that with the introduction of UV lighting, I have seen differences in coloration, behavior, and reproduction success.

I have read and heard of the color and behavior differences, not so much about whether it affected reproduction and basic survival needs. As far as color goes (unless it's like a tree monitor), all you'll be looking at is dirty lizards until you spray them.
The halogens produce a smaller amount compared to the UV strip bulbs. I also recall something about D3 in liver of vertebrate prey. Making snakes and monitors capable of pulling from that as opposed to using light.
As for experience I have not attempted to breed as of yet. From what I can tell though is a female is going to cycle if fed right and will lay those eggs as if they are good if housed properly. I know I'm on to something there as it happens often. I just haven't paired up my female or hit maturity on my groups yet.
If it gets you better results, cool :yes: Everything I have heard, read and experienced shows it is not required.
I love discussing stuff like this but I'm gonna stop due to possible hijacking charges.

I love discussing stuff like this but I'm gonna stop due to possible hijacking charges.

There is no hijacking, so carry on!

Again, I do not know the specific ability or disability of blue tree monitors, but here is a little more info on UV lighting in lizards.
UV light is generally classified in 3 categories. UV-A (shortest wavelength), UV-B (middle wavelength) and UV-C (longest wavelength). UV-C is as yet unimportant (at least it is thought) in reptiles.
The reason UV light is important in reptiles is because it is necessary for them to be able to manufacture Vit D3 precursors in their skin. Without the UV, they can't make the precursor. Without the precursor, they can't make the D3, without the D3, calcium synthesis is halted, and so on until you don't have calcium deposited into bones properly.
There is some evidence that UV-A is important for behavioral issues but it does not activate Vit D3 precursors in the skin. UV-B is the wavelength spectrum that activates the D3 precursors.
Oral calcium, or even oral D3 for that matter, is not the same as manufactured D3 and calcium. It is not nearly as bioavailable. It is impossible to completely supplement orally with calcium/D3. It is also impossible to completely supplement with artificial lighting. I do believe that for the most part, in animals that require UV lighting for D3 synthesis that you can get by with artificial lighting if the bulbs are changed regularly enough (at least once a year, preferably more), and the diet is appropriate. However, in animals that require UV lighting for D3 synthesis, it is impossible to completely supplement them with oral Calcium and D3. You may not see the effects and you may be able to breed them successfully, but I'll guarantee you those animals will be healthier and do better if they are properly cared for.
Now if Blue Trees for some reason can activate Vit D3 precursors without UV light, then none of this applies to them. I would be very surprised however if that is the case. I'd be willing to bet that they do indeed require UV-B light to activate D3 precursors in their skin. This last paragraph is totally opinion.

Ironically, just as in the monitor world, there is a simillar debate going on in the skink world [ blue-tongues & the like ] on weather UV light is necessary or not.

Man...if only we could just point-blank ask the herps what they want / need...can you imagine? ~

Ironically, just as in the monitor world, there is a simillar debate going on in the skink world [ blue-tongues & the like ] on weather UV light is necessary or not.

Man...if only we could just point-blank ask the herps what they want / need...can you imagine? ~

I agree whole heartedly. I don't keep monitors but did five-lined skinks for a few years ( I wanna do those again :D) but only used a 60 watt bulb for those. Kept the hot spot HOT and they basked as they saw fit.

I have read and heard of the color and behavior differences, not so much about whether it affected reproduction and basic survival needs.

Well if you think about it, D3, calcium, and other vitamins and minerals are very important in the production of healthy, strong eggs. The developing embryos also rely on what the female has been taking in and actually absorbing. Now, if a reptile is taking in calcium but not absorbing it, it is useless. It needs D3 in order to properly distribute and absorb calcium. Monitors, like most other reptiles use UV to produce D3.

You also should keep in mind that many varanid species will have a few clutches a year and they need to replenish their stores quickly, not only for the next clutch but for themselves as well.

In my opinion and from the differences in our varanids since we introduced UV, they do need it. We would never set a varanid cage up without UV lighting. Again, this is based on my personal experience and think you will find that many people who keep and actually breed varanids use UV lighting. Why not provide it? If your animals can even slightly benefit from it, its well worth the time, effort, and money.

Just some stuff for people who are reading to consider.

If my animals were not kept properly with out UV bulbs then why are they growing accordingly and laying eggs without being bred? If reserves are not met for survival, they surely will not use them up to produce eggs and naturally cycle when they would not have the means to do so. They are not eating their eggs either, leading me to believe they do not need the special lighting to either process the calcium for their bones or for the egg shells (which all look viable despite not being fertile). It is proven they will court and nest based on females being ready to; not because it is cooler or wetter or a certain time of year. Simply because she is ready and her body says it's time to cycle.
This debate has been going on for at least 3 years now and majority of varanid keepers and breeders do not use full spectrum UV bulbs or special lighting. This includes everyone form the single monitor keeper to the breeder who has produced 1,000s generation upon generation. Even the breeder I acquired my groups from does not us anything more than outdoor halogen floods. As you have proven some do utilize UV bulbs for monitors. But comparing results from breeders with household names down to the the guy with just a pair producing for them; it is safe to say they do not require full spectrum UV bulbs like iguanas or tortoises to thrive and reproduce in captivity.
Of course some would say it is not natural, but then again putting them in boxes and tossing in food isn't natural either. So we have to gauge success off of results and what gets those results is what is required to attain that success.
When I got my first monitor I used UV, dusted even the rats, gave it as much diversity in it's diet as possible because back then(late 90s) everyone thought variety was key to proper varanid nutrition (I even offered other reptiles). I learned a lot and when I took away the UV lights, the variety for simple dusted crickets and whole rodents my results were the same. I had the most improvement when I learned about outdoor halos and lots of dirt. The right soil and getting rid of screens is what made the major difference, a change for the better. I dropped the UV and buffet for halogens and whole rodents with dusted insects. Haven't looked back since and I have mid sized species of varanid hit adult size and lay eggs within 2 years of age and no male present. If she lays eggs (viable looking eggs) without even being bred or smelling a male, I must be on to something, right?

If my animals were not kept properly with out UV bulbs then why are they growing accordingly and laying eggs without being bred? If reserves are not met for survival, they surely will not use them up to produce eggs and naturally cycle when they would not have the means to do so. They are not eating their eggs either, leading me to believe they do not need the special lighting to either process the calcium for their bones or for the egg shells (which all look viable despite not being fertile). It is proven they will court and nest based on females being ready to; not because it is cooler or wetter or a certain time of year. Simply because she is ready and her body says it's time to cycle.
This debate has been going on for at least 3 years now and majority of varanid keepers and breeders do not use full spectrum UV bulbs or special lighting. This includes everyone form the single monitor keeper to the breeder who has produced 1,000s generation upon generation. Even the breeder I acquired my groups from does not us anything more than outdoor halogen floods. As you have proven some do utilize UV bulbs for monitors. But comparing results from breeders with household names down to the the guy with just a pair producing for them; it is safe to say they do not require full spectrum UV bulbs like iguanas or tortoises to thrive and reproduce in captivity.
Of course some would say it is not natural, but then again putting them in boxes and tossing in food isn't natural either. So we have to gauge success off of results and what gets those results is what is required to attain that success.
When I got my first monitor I used UV, dusted even the rats, gave it as much diversity in it's diet as possible because back then(late 90s) everyone thought variety was key to proper varanid nutrition (I even offered other reptiles). I learned a lot and when I took away the UV lights, the variety for simple dusted crickets and whole rodents my results were the same. I had the most improvement when I learned about outdoor halos and lots of dirt. The right soil and getting rid of screens is what made the major difference, a change for the better. I dropped the UV and buffet for halogens and whole rodents with dusted insects. Haven't looked back since and I have mid sized species of varanid hit adult size and lay eggs within 2 years of age and no male present. If she lays eggs (viable looking eggs) without even being bred or smelling a male, I must be on to something, right?

Sounds to me like you've got it all figured out. In my opinion (and that's all it is) you're mixing short term and long term benefits. To me it's like climate and weather. Climate is long term and global. Weather is short term and local. Of course people have been breeding monitors without artificial UV lights. I don't think anyone said that couldn't be done. I haven't heard you say anyone has checked their 10 or 20 year old monitor lizard's bone density. So what if it's a subtle difference. If there is any difference at all, you should be using UV lights. The truth is you are basing your opinion 100% on what you've seen. Sometimes what you've seen is not all there is to a matter.
Let me ask you this. If you were to find out that after 10 years your monitor lizards had a decrease in bone density by 20%, not enough to be noticable to your eyes and possibly not enough to stop them from laying viable eggs, would you care? Or would you continue to say "they don't need it because I can see my lizards are doing fine."? I'm not suggesting that you are improperly keeping your lizards, all I'm saying is that your eyes cannot tell you the whole story.
I wonder if this situation would have a different turn if we were talking about someones grandmother in a nursing home. Doctor says without injections her osteoporosis shows a 20% reduction in bone density. Not enough for you to see it, but it's there. Would we be electing to give her injections or would we continue to say, "she seems fine to me, she don't need those injections."?
I hope you get my point and that I'm not attacking your husbandry, just trying to get you to see the whole picture.

The right soil and getting rid of screens is what made the major difference, a change for the better. I dropped the UV and buffet for halogens and whole rodents with dusted insects. Haven't looked back since and I have mid sized species of varanid hit adult size and lay eggs within 2 years of age and no male present. If she lays eggs (viable looking eggs) without even being bred or smelling a male, I must be on to something, right?

Laying eggs is not an indication of good health. All it means is that your animal is mature. I have seen skinny imports on deaths door drop clutches. There is also a huge difference between dropping dud eggs and producing viable eggs.

Anyway, I do not think you or anyone not using UV are doing anything "wrong" but we can always do things better. We kept varanids for years without UV. From the differences and results we have seen, we choose to use UV for all of our varanids

I think Shane hits on some great points especially when it comes to long term health. I can almost say with complete certanty that many varanid keepers do not have any monitors that live 5 or 6 years old.

I agree whole heartedly. I don't keep monitors but did five-lined skinks for a few years ( I wanna do those again :D) but only used a 60 watt bulb for those. Kept the hot spot HOT and they basked as they saw fit.

Same here. Only, every now & then I take them out to bask in the sun. Figure if they do need UV, what better way to get it then naturally? :dunno:

Skinks are awesome :yes: Have only worked with the Blue-tongues thus far tho. The five-lined are definitely nice tho. [ as are the red-eyed...prehensile tailed...ah hell, they're all great! :lmao: ]

---

Honestly, the whole UV vs no-UV, vitamins vs no-vitamins scares the crap out of me. My iguana got MBD due to no-uv He was also my first herp...& first PET in general...I was 12 when we got him...we didn't know anything about keeping them at the time. [ & caresheets on the internet sucked. 10/11 years ago, the internet was not the same as it is today ] We just did what the petstore told us, dust all his food with vitamins & put heat on him. Sometime around his 6/7th birthday, the iguana [ Shinra ] broke his leg, due to MBD. [ the MBD was not noticeable...we wouldn't have known if not for his leg breaking ]

Found a local herp vet, who explained that all the vitamins we were giving him were hurting him, & without UV he wasn't able to process the calcium, etc. 3 months & $1200 later, Shinra's leg was all fixed up. [ some of you all might think I'm crazy for paying that much, but he was my first pet. Making that hour long drive 1-way to the vet every week to change the gauze was worth it to get him all healed up! I'll never regret spending that money, or time, on him. It was our fault he was hurt, so I intended to fix it ]

Shinra still lives with my dad [ coming up on 11 years old now! ] & we have drastically changed his husbandry in the past few years since his leg broke. UV, a better variety of greens, etc. etc. & Thank God, he has flourished! Up until his 6/7th birthday he was very small for a male iguana [ he was female sized, maybe smaller ] I can easily say, in the past 4 years since changing husbandry, he has doubled in size. He's the size a healthy adult male should be. & still getting bigger! Pretty crazy.

Anyway, because of my experience with the above, I'm always nervous about making sure my husbandry is 100% spot on for all my herps. But, with all the debates about what is correct vs not correct, & most of the community being pretty 50/50 splt on it...it leaves me feeling pretty nervous on what to do.

So, here is my question. Does it HURT to put UV on the varanids? [ & skinks for that matter lol ] Even if there are no benefits, [ which I'm not saying there are or are not ] will having the UV light hurt them? Is there such a thing as UV poisoning? ~

Of course people have been breeding monitors without artificial UV lights. I don't think anyone said that couldn't be done. I haven't heard you say anyone has checked their 10 or 20 year old monitor lizard's bone density.
Generally people don't have their animals examined unless something appears to be wrong or a cause for concern. If this is valid, we need to apply it snakes as well. How do we know they do not need UV lighting as well?
I do not know of anyone who had their varanids examined specifically for MBD when there were no external signs or behavioral changes that indicated it present. I too had an iguana once and studied the three types of rays, the light spectrum, which bulbs produced the highest, compared them to the sun's ratings and so on. It led me to the conclusion there are several factors that indicate if a species truly requires the special bulbs or direct sunlight. None really applies to varanids. For instance, every reptile that eats vegetation needs it. I want to say it's something to do with vegetation binding calcium making it more difficult to process to the body. But there's no doubt if it eats leaves it needs the lighting. I can't think of any that don't.:dunno:
Snakes and nocturnal reptiles like geckos do not require these special lights and I believe monitors fall into this category. Monitors are not always in-the-open baskers. They will thermoregulate under cover. This is why the stacks work so well. Regulating under cover does not allow any light onto them, but they still have needed temps. Other than tree dwellers they spend a lot of time in the ground or rock crevices.

Laying eggs is not an indication of good health. All it means is that your animal is mature. I have seen skinny imports on deaths door drop clutches. There is also a huge difference between dropping dud eggs and producing viable eggs.


There is a difference there. Imports are healthy before the stress of capture and shipment. Reproduction or natural cycling is a sign that things are in the right direction. It's when they do not go through those motions that either you A) have a male or B) something is off or missing from the husbandry. You can't convince me a sick or unhealthy animal is going to go through the reproductive measures and sacrifice itself in doing so. The body's and natural programming make survival priority 1 and reproduction only 2nd on the list. If needs are not met to accomplish the first, the latter doesn't happen. Even half way through you have re absorbing and premature drops (usually laid on top of the dirt and/or eaten) to jettison the eggs in order to save the mother. When a panoptes or acanthurus reach a particular % level of body fat and reserves they begin cycling and ovulation. If she is not absorbing and processing the nutrients and vitamins needed, she can't build on those to reach the level required for reproduction.
The eggs I spoke of where only duds because there was no male. They appeared just like fertile eggs. They were white and plump, not yellow and dimpled. If yellow; one could theorize the eggs are not getting the calcium needed for the shell and that could be due to lacking factors in the process of taking calcium for prey and processing it to the body or eggs. That could lead one to the introduction of the UV bulbs to help and if it does make a positive difference continue to use them. Therefore concluding they need the lights.

So, here is my question. Does it HURT to put UV on the varanids? [ & skinks for that matter lol ] Even if there are no benefits, [ which I'm not saying there are or are not ] will having the UV light hurt them? Is there such a thing as UV poisoning? ~

Can't say there is such a thing as poisoning. There was talk about it can cause blindness. But I have not seen anything that puts that theory into writing or gives it credibility. Not so much a theory as a rumor.

Honestly I have enjoyed this discussion. It has my head turning asking more questions as opposed to settling answers. No where have I seen anything to support they need special UVB bulbs. It is known the halos produce small amounts of UVB and that could be all they require; minimal amounts. Then again it could be solely on the diet of whole prey and proper supplements and they can process fine like snakes. I know what works for myself and many others who have had success breeding and keeping them. Keeping them alive for way more than 3-5 years at that.
If the basic requirements are met like temps, dirt, little to no ventilation to keep the heat and humidity in and the right diet; they will thrive. Not just make it to an old age, but thrive.
After those requirements are in place, experimenting with lighting can only help them and the keeper to a better understanding. Don't think I'm knocking you for doing a little extra. But for those reading new to varanids or considering them; no needs for extra until you have met the aforementioned requirements. Can't experiment on a sick animal and expect true results.:nono:
Many things different in varanids. When I first started I thought 24/7 lighting was insane. But it works! I was all kinds of worried about dirt having bad bacteria and such, but never had an issue just spot cleaning. Somebody was on to something there. When I learned about whole prey vs variety I stopped buying feeder anoles, crawdads, beef heart, catfish fillets, can-o-snails/grasshoppers, minnows and who knows what else. So far everything I learned form those sources led to positive results. Why not continue to follow the standard?

If I'm telling someone the basic requirements for monitotrs I make sure to include:
Power tools (for you, not the lizard)
Cage size should be 1x lizard's total length on width of cage, 2x lizard's total length on length of cage and allow for 1-2ft of dirt and vertical space to allow climbing based on species.
Good dirt. Not just soil and sand, sometimes just topsoil. Dry creekbeds and washouts are good collecting places if your yard dirt is not sufficient. I can go on and on just about dirt. But I've made this lengthy enough.
Whole prey. Parts don't cut it and the San Diego ground turkey mess is obsolete and outdated.
Little to no ventilation. It's not going to be airtight anyways and you get an exchange when you open the door to service the enclosure. This way you can heat it right with only 45 watt bulbs.

That bout covers it from my perspective. This has been entertaining and enlightening on my end. I hope so for others.

Oh...and screen tops are only good for sifting soil.:p

This reply is from my phone, so ease excuse mispellings. [QUOTE]Generally people don't have their animals examined unless something appears to be wrong or a cause for concern. If this is valid, we need to apply it snakes as well. How do we know they do not need UV lighting as well?
I've been talking about bit d3 precursors made in the skin. Snakes do it without the aid of uv light. Most lizards do not. Again, I'm not positive about varanids, but id be very surprised if they do.
I do not know of anyone who had their varanids examined specifically for MBD
Which means you are operating based on assumption, just like i am.
Reproduction or natural cycling is a sign that things are in the right direction. It's when they do not go through those motions that either you A) have a male or B) something is off or missing from the husbandry. You can't convince me a sick or unhealthy animal is going to go through the reproductive measures and sacrifice itself in doing so. The body's and natural programming make survival priority 1 and reproduction only 2nd on the list. If needs are not met to accomplish the first, the latter doesn't happen. Even half way through you have re absorbing and premature drops (usually laid on top of the dirt and/or eaten) to jettison the eggs in order to save the mother.
If you read most of what i post in any thread, youll notice that i rarely just flatly tell someone they are wrong, but in this case you are just plain wrong. If youd hang out in my clinic with me for just a week, i could show you half a dozen cases where an animal will sacrifice its own health dor repriduction. The assumption you are atarting wirh here is an old way of thinking. We used to think that reproduction was rhe first thing to go during illness. But now we've figured out that pregnancy doesn't happen when conditions are optimal, pregnancy happens when an egg is fertilized. The cases could show you would be animals that are emaciated and hypocalcemic, in some cases to the point of death to maintains pregnancy or adequate lactation. So to say the body is made in such a way that pregnancy will be sacrificed to save the mother is just plain inaccurate. No where have I seen anything to support they need special UVB bulbs. It is known the halos produce small amounts of UVB and that could be all they require; minimal amounts. Then again it could be solely on the diet of whole prey and proper supplements and they can process fine like snakes.
And no where have you seen anything to support that they dont benefit from it except your own experience which obviously you hold above the experience of others here. And again I'll say that your eyes cannot tell the full story. .Not just make it to an old age, but thrive.
I'm not sure how you define thrive. If you mean no obvious external evidence of serious disease, then maybe you are right. But is that all you are after, or do you want to provide 100% of what they need?

I've been talking about bit d3 precursors made in the skin. Snakes do it without the aid of uv light. Most lizards do not. Again, I'm not positive about varanids, but id be very surprised if they do.

That's the fun part of varanids: the surprises! I was quite surprised to find out they are technically venomous years back. Many disputed this but Dr Frye laid all cards on the table and now we know varanids have venom producing glands.


If you read most of what i post in any thread, youll notice that i rarely just flatly tell someone they are wrong, but in this case you are just plain wrong. If youd hang out in my clinic with me for just a week, i could show you half a dozen cases where an animal will sacrifice its own health dor repriduction. The assumption you are atarting wirh here is an old way of thinking. We used to think that reproduction was rhe first thing to go during illness. But now we've figured out that pregnancy doesn't happen when conditions are optimal, pregnancy happens when an egg is fertilized. The cases could show you would be animals that are emaciated and hypocalcemic, in some cases to the point of death to maintains pregnancy or adequate lactation. So to say the body is made in such a way that pregnancy will be sacrificed to save the mother is just plain inaccurate.

Sourcing what I have learned from successful breeders, varanids ovulation starts when fat stores have reached a certain level. This explains why they can lay 3-4 (sometimes dozens) of clutches in a year. So in order to hit the reproductive cycle they have to be in optimum condition. Skinny monitors don't ovulate. I was wrong to say 'animals' when it is species specific. You are right, especially in regards to mammals still attempting reproduction under bad conditions. Do you see malnourished varanids in your office full off eggs? If so how often. I'm sure it would be very rare to encounter.

And no where have you seen anything to support that they dont benefit from it except your own experience which obviously you hold above the experience of others here. And again I'll say that your eyes cannot tell the full story.

I do not hold my experiences above others. I am going off the experiences of others. I have not hatched or even paired any varanids yet. I am basing this off of what I have learned from 'the big boys' and seen the results of with my own charges. At the same time I have not seen anything to support it is required. There are old debates on forums going back to 09 with speculation the lights can damage eyes but I have not seen any other indications this is true other than discussions between keepers. That is why I do not say the UV strips are bad, just not required for proper husbandry. What I have seen is other breeders of varanids state they do not use anything but halogen floods and they have successful breedings and healthy animals thriving in their set ups. By thriving I mean going through all the motions that take them from egg to adult and back to egg(s). I am speaking from my experience and that of others who are higher on the totem pole of varanid keepers. After all it is their methods I have used and applied to my charges. I'm not making this up as I go. It is their methods that have the best results and results are the best way to gauge if the husbandry is correct. No where have I said that using UV is bad or faulted anyone for doing it. I have only stated it is not required or necessary to keep monitors healthy or reproducing and living a full term life.


I'm not sure how you define thrive. If you mean no obvious external evidence of serious disease, then maybe you are right. But is that all you are after, or do you want to provide 100% of what they need?

To me thriving means going through the motions in the best conditions that can be provided. Growing at a reasonable rate and living a full term life. Reproducing if possible of course or cycling if a lone female. But generally going through the motions of life; birth, growth, reproduction and so on.
Some could argue what a varanid needs in the wild is an acre or so of territory to itself. Obviously we can't provide that, so we have to make due with what keeps them going. In the wild they may need that space. But obviously not in captivity where food is given and not hunted across yards and yards of space and the water bowl is cleaned and full every day. We have eliminate dthat need for traversing distances to survive. In turn we have to give them capabilities to exercise like burrowing and climbing. And again I see no necessity of UV bulbs.
Perhaps we are offering the sufficient amounts of lighting with the halos. They do put out UVA and UVB rays. You generally want them to get within 6-8 inches of the light to get the heat required and like the UV strips, being within 6 inches of the light is the only time it is working. It could be they only need small amounts versus others that need those 2.0 or 5.0 bulbs. A keeper providing both types of lighting may be giving a double dose. Or it could be they are like snakes and nocturnal geckos, they just don't need the rays to process calcium. They're full of surprises and new information keeps coming out. Like the venom glands, no one suspected there would be a varanid that ate fruit. But in the past 4 to 5 years we have seen that to be true.

If it's okay, I would like to talk with you on some other things in regards to varanids and veterinary care. But it is not related to the UV so may be bets if PMed or started in another thread.

Hope everyone has a safe and happy holidays. Even the ones screaming at me through the computer. :p

Sourcing what I have learned from successful breeders, varanids ovulation starts when fat stores have reached a certain level. This explains why they can lay 3-4 (sometimes dozens) of clutches in a year. So in order to hit the reproductive cycle they have to be in optimum condition. Skinny monitors don't ovulate. I was wrong to say 'animals' when it is species specific. You are right, especially in regards to mammals still attempting reproduction under bad conditions. Do you see malnourished varanids in your office full off eggs? If so how often. I'm sure it would be very rare to encounter.
Species difference do occur. No doubt about that. But to claim that a single species only ovulates once a hypothetical optimum condition is reached without some variable that is known to be different in that species seems to me to be on the level of just making something up. you've already said it's not you making it up, you are just going off what others have told you. I think they made it up. I simply do not believe that no skinny monitor will ovulate. I could be wrong.
And I have never seen a malnourished varanid in my office full of eggs, but then I don't see many varanids at all. I was not talking only about mammals however. It definitely applies to snakes, iguanas, chameleons and skinks as well. Now it's fine if you want to claim that varanids are unique, but if you do, you need to have some evidence besides what someone has told you.

Some could argue what a varanid needs in the wild is an acre or so of territory to itself. Obviously we can't provide that, so we have to make due with what keeps them going. In the wild they may need that space. But obviously not in captivity where food is given and not hunted across yards and yards of space and the water bowl is cleaned and full every day. We have eliminate dthat need for traversing distances to survive. In turn we have to give them capabilities to exercise like burrowing and climbing.
But we can provide them UV light.
Perhaps we are offering the sufficient amounts of lighting with the halos. They do put out UVA and UVB rays.
This is possible, but again if you are going to claim that varanids are unique, I need to hear more evidence that just someone experienced at keeping them said it.
If it's okay, I would like to talk with you on some other things in regards to varanids and veterinary care. But it is not related to the UV so may be bets if PMed or started in another thread.
Either method is fine with me. If it's information you think the rest of the blbc would benefit from, post it on the open boards. If not, PM is ok.

It may be that we have taken this as far as it can be beneficial. I am willing to discuss about anything until it's far beyond useful, but others may be oversaturated with this. I could be wrong though.

Do you know of any tests that could be done to test D3 levels? Say like a blood draw. Nothing from a necropsy. Is it possibly to perform that bone density test through x-ray or non lethal methods?
Also, could it be perform by a standard exotics vet, not necessarily a reptile specialist such as yourself? Of course I would have to run two trials, one species of monitor with just halos and another (same type of monitor) with UV bulbs in order to get a comparison. Could do another and set up outdoor time in the summer for a 3rd subject and comparison to with the sun, the best light bulb there is. Then put results side by side by side and see if/what differences pile up.
Of course only if I have a way to test without requiring the animal being dead or harmed.

Do you know of any tests that could be done to test D3 levels? Say like a blood draw. Nothing from a necropsy. Is it possibly to perform that bone density test through x-ray or non lethal methods?
Also, could it be perform by a standard exotics vet, not necessarily a reptile specialist such as yourself? Of course I would have to run two trials, one species of monitor with just halos and another (same type of monitor) with UV bulbs in order to get a comparison. Could do another and set up outdoor time in the summer for a 3rd subject and comparison to with the sun, the best light bulb there is. Then put results side by side by side and see if/what differences pile up.
Of course only if I have a way to test without requiring the animal being dead or harmed.

All good questions. You can measure calcium in the bloodstream, but it does not correlate well with calcium concentrations in bone, so calcium measurement does no good. I don't know if there is a lab that can measure D3 directly in a reptile. That would be easy for me to check though. In general, accurate reptile specific blood tests are hard to come by, but D3 is D3 so if it can be measured, I don't think it'll have to be reptile specific.
Plain film Xray is a good screening test for bone density problems, but isn't nearly sensitive enough to pick up on subtle changes. CT scans with the appropriate software are very accurate and very sensitive and very expensive. The gold standard in human medicine is what is called Dual Energy Xray Absorptiomotry (DEXA). DEXA is beginning to be used on small animals, but at the current time is relatively unavailable.
Just for the record, I am not a reptile specialist. I just have a passion for them and about 25 years experience keeping/breeding and going on 12 years working on them, but I am not a board certified in exotics.
In short, you have hit on what I was getting at in the beginning of our discussion. What you are talking about can be done. If I were going to do it, at this point I would choose CT scans. The problem is it is going to require several CTs per animal over an extended period of time. You are going to have to spend thousands of dollars on this study. It would be fantastic if you do it, but next to impossible on the practical side of things. Point being any information you've gotten from anyone, including myself, can only be speculation. And for my money, I'm not going to call varanids different from other closely related lizards until there is a way to do something similar to what you are talking about practically.
A much easier way to go about this might be to find someone who can determine with a biopsy sample whether or not the varanids have the capability to synthesize the D3 precursors in their skin without the UV. If we are going to get down to a molecular level, I'm going to have to stop relying on what I know and reread some textbooks. But I'm sure that can be done.

Just for the record, I am not a reptile specialist. I just have a passion for them and about 25 years experience keeping/breeding and going on 12 years working on them, but I am not a board certified in exotics.


Compared to most "exotic' vets (especially around here) you are a specialist/expert. lol. I've had one break out pictures of varanids and ask me to ID them. There is a line between keeper and academic that has been the main base of many varanid debates (UV, diets and whatnot). Findings in the wild versus keeping practices often bump heads. I don't expect all exotics vets to know every species and sub species of reptile, but I was identifying salvators and albigs; pretty common in the captive trade. I'd say if you don't consider yourself a specialist or herp medicine expert then you are well on your way and have a jump on the rest.
Thanks for that post. Very informative. I had read about blood draws and tests, but that was from keepers. I needed an academic input from someone in that field with a good grasp on both ends, keeping and veterinary applications.
Thanks again and be safe this new year. :cheers:

Compared to most "exotic' vets (especially around here) you are a specialist/expert. lol. I've had one break out pictures of varanids and ask me to ID them. There is a line between keeper and academic that has been the main base of many varanid debates (UV, diets and whatnot). Findings in the wild versus keeping practices often bump heads. I don't expect all exotics vets to know every species and sub species of reptile, but I was identifying salvators and albigs; pretty common in the captive trade. I'd say if you don't consider yourself a specialist or herp medicine expert then you are well on your way and have a jump on the rest.
Thanks for that post. Very informative. I had read about blood draws and tests, but that was from keepers. I needed an academic input from someone in that field with a good grasp on both ends, keeping and veterinary applications.
Thanks again and be safe this new year. :cheers:
Glad I could be of assistance. 1st time for me.:lmao::lmao::lmao: