I am slowly becoming aquanted with the members of this forum but have been a member of the ball market for years and have wondered about many things. I have read many of the 'drama' posts and worry about the future of this industry. Having read posts by oz and conducting business with justin smith I am glad to see strong and true business ethics that allow transparency to dictate the market. The issue I have been curious about is that of market efficiency, I agree that there are some major breeders that do alot of long run harm to the market and i fear that only an 'inner circle' of breeders will ever know the truth. Because the ball python market is not 'public' there really is no way that investors can make informed opinions. The consequences of certain imoral business actions seem to only harm the victims with no justice ever served. Or am I wrong? If we were involved in something 'mainstream' all these inefficiencies would be worked out by the public in no time.
I had to struggle through kingsnake and then navigate my way to the stand up members of this site. Can there be a more efficient way to inform and educate newbies like my self on the ball python market and its deficencies. If there was some sort of 'public' exchange many lies would be solved; such as breeding records and sales. This is done in the mainstream and allows one to fully educate themselves on investments. Anywho, just thinking out loud. I am just happy to find a place that wont stand for alot of the crap that has invaded our world.

No good. . . Too radical. It just seems our world could benifit from a better defined market structure, right now the ball world is like the wild west - unstable and lawless.

I don't think the ball world is really any different from any other business niche out there, you have your good guys and bad guys.... the actions of the bad guys always make headlines as they do in any business world and maybe that creates a perception of bad being more prevalent then what it really is.... there are a LOT of good stand up people out there representing this hobby in the best way possible.

Investors can make informed opinions if they do their research, know who the seller is, know the product they are looking to invest in.... the investors who get burned are usually ones that simply don't do their home work and leap into something without know much about it and often chasing the lowest price which can get you hooked up with the wrong seller....

The information is out there, the people with the info are out there.... right on this site for example, but you gotta ask those questions. I know some may feel a little awkward about asking newbie questions, but you ain't gunna be treated like you're an idiot here if you do ask.... knowledge is key, people here have it. Start asking and or searching.... educate yourself on what you want to know.

I read the post by oz about the toffee/candy mistake he made. If he can spend 50k on something that doesn't really pan out how much info can there really be for small time breeders. Like coral glows, no one knows how many r out there or how many clutches will come due this season, I believe these r the facts the market lacks. Just to clarify I am only talking about the 'cutting edge' stuff like the banana, these require alot of capital and thus should be as transparent as possible. I completely agree with you about the wonders this sight and community offers my above mentioned statement was in regards to those trapped inside the kingsnake world who's perceptions r being shapped by a tainted marketplace. . . This is life, I know. I just hope that there r enough active 'good guys' out their to combat the bad. Thanks for the reply and info!

I pretty much agree with Sput on this. The ball python industry/hobby is not much different than any other market. If you want to know something, just ask. Most people will be willing to give you the information you want. If they don't, don't sweat it, ask someone else.
I would put it like this. How much do you know about selling air conditioner components? The details of that business are not mainstream media. If you wanted to break into that business, you'd have to find people you trust to get your information from. Generally you can tell by the way people treat you whether or not you want to deal with them. And of course their reputation before hand.

Yes, that is obvious, but the nature of reptile breeding is vastly different than alot of other markets.
1) anyone can breed. There are no barriers of entry.
2) snakes are not consumed. The supply only gets larger.
3) males are breed to multiple females and females produce multiple babies.
all of these facts show how fast a gene can depriciate, but further shows the volitility in our market. All I am saying is that for those who breed for a living or invest good money in a gene we can all benifit for transparency and disclosure. Secrets, lies, and a race to cash in on genes disrupts the market for everyone. I know there are no easy answers or fixes to these thing but that doesn't mean we can't try.

Your last statement I agree with whole heartedly. We would all benefit from transparency and integrity, unfortunately there are those out there who disagree.
As far as the long term effects of the pool of goods getting larger.
1. It is true that currently the ball python supply is growing, but so too is the demand. The pet trade could be looked at as the final consumer, but I really think right now, smaller breeders should be considered the final consumer. We are buying, selling, trading amongst ourselves in large part. And 2 things are happening with the pool of smaller breeders. There are more and more of them all the time. And their collections are getting larger.
2. Eventually I believe the supply with grow to meet demand, but we are nowhere near there yet. The main reason being most people who are set up to breed 2 snakes can easily make the transition to breeding 12 of 16 snakes. That by itself vastly increases demand. Once the saturation point is reached then the pet trade becomes the final consumer. At that point, all talk changes.

Well said! I agree. But can you also say that our market is as efficient as it can be. That is the motive for my thread. how can we make large investments more efficient to meet the growing demand you speak of?

Well said! I agree. But can you also say that our market is as efficient as it can be. That is the motive for my thread. how can we make large investments more efficient to meet the growing demand you speak of?

You are getting into an area that few of us have any formal training in. Communication is definitely an area that can be improved, imo. Somehow you are going to have to get the point across that secrecy is a negative influence on the market. The big breeders are selling all they can produce and have very little incentive to listen to economical arguments. What I would tell them, if I were in a position where they valued my opinion, is that they would be making even more money if they opened up and showed people what all was going on. Imagine how much more of a buzz there would be to own the first of a new morph if the ball python second tier breeders new about it and saw pictures of it 2 or 3 years before the first one was available. As it is right now, half the time nobody knows about a new morph until some are produced and often not until they are for sale. If you don't tell somebody about something until after you have it for sale, then you are behind the 8ball having to explain the genetics and make people trust your word. If you let people in from the beginning, the explanation is already done, the buzz is already created, and the things would most likely be sold from a waiting list before they hit the open market.
I am very pessimistic about the real world application of this though. I just think it's been this way for 35 years and the big breeders are making plenty and have no incentive to change.

One must lead by example. This site/forum is a good start. If we practice what we preach and grow in members over time the market will change. It will be the small steps that will equate to the big change. I only have a small collection and am just a hobbyist, my life is in macroeconomic growth and capital markets. I have found that asymetries are the cause for many inefficiencies. I hope the breeders who are in a position to point the market in the right direction will do so. Like you said the trick is to present such fallicies in a way that the top breeders will see that max. Growth will be acomplished through transparency. I have studied the history of economic thought and it is very interesting to see alot of the fallicies that have been proven false still alive and well in this market place. A great example is the stock market - extremely public and extrmely lucrative. Thanks for your thoughts, I really thought more people would want to coment on such but I guess change it hard.

i think its impossible to get these infos. like how many queenbees have been made this season or how many fireflys were hatched etc

the difference between other markets is that we are 99% private collectors- not companys.

in the car market we have maybe 200 manufactures. the dates are outthere. each year 200mio suvs get produced and each year 350000 cars crashed.

theyve statistics so they can see whats produced and whats the demand etc etc

we will never have that in this hobby. to many people are involved. it would be impossible to figure how many killerbees were made in europe last year.


we as breeders can simply watch the market and see the trends, see what morphs have kept their value better- which not so much etc. which combos are usually sold in the first 2 hours of a show and what animals do the breeder take home again.

thats the homework everyone has to do for himself if he really wants to invest to make money.


but thats another difference. i guess that 75% dont look on whats the best selling snake. they see a combo and think ive to have that- ive to make that. so they start breeding.
or they have an idea in head which animals theyd love. then they buy the needed animals and start chasing this morph on their own.

i think thats the biggest difference to a normal classic stock market or so.


making money in the snake business is definitely not impossible but most of us make their money somewhere else. most are happy when the hobby pays for itself at the end of the year.

people often do see the hard work, the costs etc which are bound to producing a snake.

when uve 100 snakes uve to buy at least 400 mice or rats per month- probably more like 600 to 800. they have to be paid. then heat the 100 racks or cages- most of us probably have heating bills like a 10 headed family.

but all these are things most people dont see. they dont see the work. they see a pciture of a hot snake with a pricetag which shows a few k and they think i can do that too- its easy- ill throw 2 snakes in a tub and put the eggs in the incubator. well the thruth is that if ure really just in it for the money ull probably stop with it after a year...

Yes, I agree, but we are only talking about the common breeder and common morphs. One can, through statistics provide rough calculations of depriciation and population, but the work would not be validated by the price tag of these said snakes. Im purely speaking of the top breeders and the top of the line morphs. These people ARE companies and they DO manufacture a product, which is their own business and I am not suggesting messing with that, my focus is simply on the first couple of years a morph is out there, one can easily track it for that long, so a truer value can be assessed.

We are talking about private companies, and in some instances just private individuals. Nobody likes to reveal how much money they make or how much they are worth, and that's basically what you're asking these guys to do.

Do I want to know how many of a particular morph is out there? Sure, I'd love to know how many banana/coral glows are out there, or how many adult female deserts there are. However, that's never likely to happen.

This is a industry with incomplete information. If that bothers you, well then perhaps this isn't the right industry for you. I have a history with poker, which is a game of incomplete information. To win, you must not only know the odds and statistics, but you need to be able to read your opponents and make educated guesses based on the data you do have access to.

In this industry, the best you can do is learn the players, try to guess what they're up to and then draw your own conclusions on what you should invest in. It's risky and not everyone can do it, but it has certainly paid off for some.

Sounds fine. . . Although I feel the poker analogy is a little off. I make due with my collection, but I know what I am doing and I do it on a small scale. If its this way and people want to keep it this way fine with me, who am I to say otherwise. I was simply wondering if others felt strongly about the asymetries in this marketplace because they can be fixed for the better - investment could become easier.

We are talking about private companies, and in some instances just private individuals. Nobody likes to reveal how much money they make or how much they are worth, and that's basically what you're asking these guys to do.

Do I want to know how many of a particular morph is out there? Sure, I'd love to know how many banana/coral glows are out there, or how many adult female deserts there are. However, that's never likely to happen.

This is a industry with incomplete information. If that bothers you, well then perhaps this isn't the right industry for you. I have a history with poker, which is a game of incomplete information. To win, you must not only know the odds and statistics, but you need to be able to read your opponents and make educated guesses based on the data you do have access to.

In this industry, the best you can do is learn the players, try to guess what they're up to and then draw your own conclusions on what you should invest in. It's risky and not everyone can do it, but it has certainly paid off for some.

But when you are claiming there is a shortage of a particular commodity don't you owe it to your customers to provide them with proof that the shortage actually exists? If we were talking about any other industry I think it would be expected.
But does it have to be an industry with incomplete information. I think the question here is a hypothetical one, but one worth discussing nonetheless. I think the whole of the business/hobby would be better off if there were more information sharing. I don't care how much money NERD or Bob Clark make, but if you are selling a snake for $60K and your justification for that price to your customers is a shortage of males, the incomplete information needs to get more complete. If you only want to make that information available to your customers, then o.k. we all know that means it will become public quickly anyway. But from what I've read from people invested in the bananas, the information has been just as incomplete as if there were no issue producing males. I'm saying when there is a problem involving $60K snakes, it becomes a whole different ballgame. And are you saying that the snake/hobby is at best a gamble like a poker game? Why does it have to be that way? What I mean is why do we have to accept the status quo? Why can't that be challenged and a better model be put in place to attempt to avoid the fiascos we've seen this year. Nothing is perfect, but why sit back and accept everything as is when there likely is a better way.

THANK YOU! ! ! I was begining to feel alone. A simple example would be such:
say nerd imports a banana type snake, they breed it through multiple generation and make all the necessary observations. Then at a said date they publish their findings and publicly state that x amount of the snake will be released at a said date (like an ipo). At this stage of the game if all is as good as the banana really is nerd will be set to make an absolute killing. Imagine on a world wide scale with a publically anounced realse date how much capital could be pooled together to purchase the limited quantity.
At this point the public knows the breeding facts of the said snake, how many were realsed and where, and the ending value. This will allow the market forces to take over and allow for a healthy investment and a healthy depriciation. Furthermore with nerd raking in the cash on a solid investment it would also allow them to admit deficiencies in other genes - secrets r created when profit margins are tight and bad investments r made.

Oh yeah. . . For quality serpents: it is not known if pi/e is irrational, so there is no answer to your question lol. How advance is you mathematical education?

Oh yeah. . . For quality serpents: it is not known if pi/e is irrational, so there is no answer to your question lol. How advance is you mathematical education?

Thats exactly why I put it there. I've joked that that will be the first question I ask God when I get to heaven. Only nerds get that, so sorry to inform you your in the club.:lmao:
Got as far as 200 level calculus courses in undergraduate. Also 2 years of physics under a 60 year old japanese nuclear physicist who was way too intelligent to teach me physics and was constantly correcting our physics text.

Thats exactly why I put it there. I've joked that that will be the first question I ask God when I get to heaven. Only nerds get that, so sorry to inform you your in the club.:lmao:
Got as far as 200 level calculus courses in undergraduate. Also 2 years of physics under a 60 year old japanese nuclear physicist who was way too intelligent to teach me physics and was constantly correcting our physics text.

Dude, that's nuttin.... I got 10 digits on my hands and I KNOW how to use em!`

Dude, that's nuttin.... I got 10 digits on my hands and I KNOW how to use em!`

I've got you beat Sput, I got toes too!:rockon:

I've got you beat Sput, I got toes too!:rockon:

Well, aren't you freaking special.... :lmao:

Well, aren't you freaking special.... :lmao:

:wamma::lmao::lmao:

Dude, that's nuttin.... I got 10 digits on my hands and I KNOW how to use em!`

I've got you beat Sput, I got toes too!:rockon:

Well, aren't you freaking special.... :lmao:

:wamma::lmao::lmao:

Both of you have sorely mistaken my answer to his question for me thinking I am at all intelligent. What my education cannot get me is the knowledge to be able to do what you guys (and gals) are doing with your fingers and toes.:eek:

Both of you have sorely mistaken my answer to his question for me thinking I am at all intelligent. What my education cannot get me is the knowledge to be able to do what you guys (and gals) are doing with your fingers and toes.:eek:

Just count dear, just count... Of course, I can do this really neat trick with my thumbs. They are double jointed at the middle and I can lay em backwards in half against itself.
Now we've gone completely off topic. Sorry.:yes: (Imagine that thumb not sticking up, but rather bending backwards... ha)

Just count dear, just count... Of course, I can do this really neat trick with my thumbs. They are double jointed at the middle and I can lay em backwards in half against itself.
Now we've gone completely off topic. Sorry.:yes: (Imagine that thumb not sticking up, but rather bending backwards... ha)

Eeeew! I can bend my wrist forward and touch my forearm with my thumb but that is just funky.

But when you are claiming there is a shortage of a particular commodity don't you owe it to your customers to provide them with proof that the shortage actually exists? If we were talking about any other industry I think it would be expected.
But does it have to be an industry with incomplete information. I think the question here is a hypothetical one, but one worth discussing nonetheless. I think the whole of the business/hobby would be better off if there were more information sharing. I don't care how much money NERD or Bob Clark make, but if you are selling a snake for $60K and your justification for that price to your customers is a shortage of males, the incomplete information needs to get more complete. If you only want to make that information available to your customers, then o.k. we all know that means it will become public quickly anyway. But from what I've read from people invested in the bananas, the information has been just as incomplete as if there were no issue producing males. I'm saying when there is a problem involving $60K snakes, it becomes a whole different ballgame. And are you saying that the snake/hobby is at best a gamble like a poker game? Why does it have to be that way? What I mean is why do we have to accept the status quo? Why can't that be challenged and a better model be put in place to attempt to avoid the fiascos we've seen this year. Nothing is perfect, but why sit back and accept everything as is when there likely is a better way.

These guys are within their rights to sell their animals for whatever price they want. Kevin can say, "this coral glow is going to be $65,000 because it's so freaking awesome." It's up to me and you and everyone else to decide if we agree with Kevin about the awesomeness of the coral glow. If Brock or Oz or anyone else with cg/banana males disagree with Kevin, they can price theirs whatever they want.

The fact is, the banana/coral glow project is one of, if not THE most desirable project in this industry right now. Nearly everybody seems to want one. The fact that these males are disappearing nearly as fast as they are hatching confirms this.

One of the things I love about this industry is there's no one single way of doing things. We have people like Ralph, Justin Kobylka and the Sutherlands who keep birthing records and put it on their website. They might have a few secrets, but they share a lot of information as well. Then we have people like Kevin, who shows us a lot of sweet stuff, but also keeps a lot of stuff secret.

I don't know why Kevin or Brock won't share with us the number of males they've produced. I'm sure they have a good reason. I'm just glad we're in an industry that doesn't force their hand. We have enough trouble with animal right lobbyists trying to take away our rights.

Now, I should point out that I do believe anything that could negatively affect a project should be brought to light. For instance, when the first toffino started coloring up, that should've been brought to light immediately. At the very least, those selling visuals and hets should have let prospective buyers know. With the coral glow/banana project, it seems this was done once they noticed what was happening with the males.

Secrets can also have consequences. I spent tens of thousands of dollars on ball pythons last year. I plan on spending tens of thousands more this year. I purchased a candy female from Peter Kahl after he was notified by Peter Williams regarding the toffino. Peter Kahl did not tell me about the compatibility. Therefore, Peter Kahl will not get another penny from me. Not only that, but whenever asked or an appropriate situation arises, I will tell anyone who will listen that they should avoid doing business with him, as he places financial gain above business ethics.

If it turns out that Kevin and Brock are not being honest about this project, well then I will avoid giving them my business as well. I have done business with honest breeders who value me as a customer more than making a quick buck. Those are the guys I want to give my money to. Craig Stewart as well, since I was in discussion with him about Toffees and he didn't mention a word about it either.

If you want full disclosure, do your business with breeders who offer that to an extent that satisfies you. If the guys with big secrets can't sell their snakes because nobody wants to buy from someone with big secrets, well then I'm sure they will start sharing information pretty quick.

As far as this industry being similar to a poker game, I fully believe it is. Poker is a game of skill. If you know the odds and your opponents, you can make a ton of money. There is some risk involved, since there is a little luck on a per-hand basis, but over time, smart decisions pay off. That mirrors our industry. Those who are smart and make good decisions (which snakes to get, when to invest in big projects, etc) usually end up doing well. There is a little bit of luck involved (snakes dying, not breeding, not hitting the odds, etc), but over time, smart decisions pay off.

These guys are within their rights to sell their animals for whatever price they want. Kevin can say, "this coral glow is going to be $65,000 because it's so freaking awesome." It's up to me and you and everyone else to decide if we agree with Kevin about the awesomeness of the coral glow. If Brock or Oz or anyone else with cg/banana males disagree with Kevin, they can price theirs whatever they want.

I don't know why Kevin or Brock won't share with us the number of males they've produced. I'm sure they have a good reason. I'm just glad we're in an industry that doesn't force their hand. We have enough trouble with animal right lobbyists trying to take away our rights.

As far as this industry being similar to a poker game, I fully believe it is. Poker is a game of skill. If you know the odds and your opponents, you can make a ton of money. There is some risk involved, since there is a little luck on a per-hand basis, but over time, smart decisions pay off. That mirrors our industry. Those who are smart and make good decisions (which snakes to get, when to invest in big projects, etc) usually end up doing well. There is a little bit of luck involved (snakes dying, not breeding, not hitting the odds, etc), but over time, smart decisions pay off.
Is this in fact what happened or were they $65K because there was a perceived shortage of males?

This is simply not true without undue consequences. Ask Ozzyboids. He didn't even sell a male cheap and when people only THOUGHT he did, it created one of the worst uproars I've seen in some time.
As far as this industry being like a poker game, I completely disagree. I've been around a long time and I don't feel like I've had to outsmart anyone to get where I am. Example, I bought some corn snakes from Ron Sims a few months ago. I did not lose one seconds sleep thinking he might be hiding something from me to gain a "poker advantage" of some sort. I bought a couple of ball pythons from Randy and Michelle at Art in Scales just last week. I didn't lose one seconds sleep thinking they had some "secrets" as you put it. If you enjoy the "rush" of living in the world of poker stakes ball python breeding, more power to you. Not me though. When I buy something, whether it's from WalMart, Dillard's, or NERD, I expect that I am buying exactly what I'm told I am buying. Not that the person I'm buying from is a shrewd businessman and is likely hiding something from me to get ahead of the game. Of course there are things that can go wrong with living animals, but that's a completely different thing than someone withholding information to try to create an increased demand or decreased supply.

Exactly. . . Ask oz. This thread is not entitled shit on kevin. As quality serpants pointed out many posts ago these guy are operating under an impression that their actions best suiting them - this is false. When you speak of 'forcing their hand' you fail to realize that, behind their 'rockstar' exterior, nerd is indirectly 'forcing your hand' to play this 'poker game'. This thread is titled market efficiency - how can any industry that possesses an analogy of a poker game be efficient?

I should clarify a bit. When I refer to this industry being like poker, I am not referring to you trying to beat everyone else in the game. I believe there is plenty of room in this industry for a lot of people to succeed. I don't believe that you have to lose in order for me to win. I certainly don't believe breeders should withhold critical information from their customers to gain some sort of advantage over them. However, if I make better investing decisions than others, such as buying into key projects at the right time, I'll end up more successful. That's really the point I was trying to make when comparing it to poker (which admittedly now isn't the best analogy).

This industry is unlike any other. Coke doesn't reveal their recipe. That's a trade secret. However, when they sell a bottle, the person buying doesn't become a competitor.

Anyone Kevin or Brock sells a coral glow/banana to becomes a competitor. If they sell a cg/b to someone who the following season produces a half dozen of their own, they could severely undercut the existing market. People in the project may complain, whine and threaten (as we saw with Oz and his bananas), but ultimately, that doesn't matter. I guarantee if someone offers their cg male for sale for $35k, the people interested in buying aren't going to say "you should be charging more for that snake, look at what Brock and Kevin are charging." The person who charges $30k less for a male than other breeders is an idiot, but that's their right.

Let's face it, the pricing in our industry is pretty much arbitrary. It's not based on rarity or demand. Nobody really knows how many of what morph is out there, nor do I think there could be a reliable way to obtain such numbers. Why didn't prices of deserts go up after the Pro Exotics fire? The number of deserts in existence dropped significantly. Supply dropped, but demand didn't. Prices didn't go up.

Our market, being small and relatively new, is still trying to figure itself out. I can't think of any other industry where every item sold makes a potential competitor. It's a balance trying to make the customer happy while also maintaining a competitive advantage (which is not evil or wrong, it's necessary in order to run a successful business). However, like every other industry, money talks. Like I said before, if you don't like the way Kevin or Brock does business, don't buy snakes from them, and send them an email letting them know why they didn't get your business.

Also, keep in mind that people buying into the cg/b project might be getting information from these guys that isn't being revealed to the public. Just because you don't know the information you want doesn't mean the guy willing to fork out $65k isn't getting it beforehand.

Absolutely and thank you for taking the time to write a detailed post. This is my exact motive for writing this thread. You speak of great deficiencies in our marketplace but state them as accepted. This doesn't have to be the case. Our marketplace is still underdeveloped (you said so yourself indirectly) and has plenty of room to refine itself. Simply put; in regards to cg/b if nerd broadcasted things publicly about supply, . . Etc. More people would be inclined to invest, thus making nerd more money. There is no doubt in my mind that if the cg/b was released into a refined marketplace the value of one would be greatly increased.

so maybe diverging from the 'preachy' "we can do better!" stuff will be better suited. I will start with classic economic theory, adam smith presented us with three basic rules to grow a nation: extent of the market, division of labor, and specialization. I will take each one in order and express suggestions for our marketplace. My purpose here is to start a conversation not dictate progress, for that would be impossible.
1) extent of the market:
Outside of trade shows and websites we have classifieds. At this point our market is fragmented into the crowds that travel these classifieds and it is these classifieds that shape a 'newbie's' perception of the marketplace. We have a great foundation here (@ blbc) and we work to grow this market (that exists inside the blbc). by doing this we can have some sort of quality control but we can help nuture the next generation breeder, who will one day buy our stock. This can be done by placing a blbc logo on our websites or passing our blbc stickers with snake purchases. If our market grows in the right direction we can nurture healthy demand.

2) Division of labor:
as our gene pool extends so diminidhes our probabilites of amazing crosses (a five gene snake is hard to make). This i feel will cause many breeders to focus on specific genes (this would be similar to specialzation but my example for 'specialization' will be different). Because of this other breeders will no longer be competition but partners or simply involved in another 'sector'. I wont have room to fully discuss this but a practical example would be to have forum rooms directed to specific morphs like clowns or super phantoms. This will help the development of said genes and create partnerships. Genes have a trickle down effect and if people work together this trickle down effect can be prolonged and exagerated.

3) Specialization:
This is highly important for the future of our marketplace. We will grow only as long as genes are developed. If a certain structure were inacted that gives maximum financial reward (plus protection) to one that develops a gene, then that said organization can focus soley on development. this will allow for the specialization of genes in a professional way (which will further present valluable data for the industry) and will also give the job of making high probability crosses to next teir of breeders.
Lastly, if said market structure exsisted one can compile objective data on supplies effect on price, depreciation of dominant gene vs recessive, . . . etc. This will allow for better investment.

All ideas are cut short and general and still I must apologize for the length.

There is one major flaw in your theorizing. The end game of what you are suggesting removes the one factor that most of us are in this for. Not all, but most. We want to be able breed what we want to breed with the hope of coming up with something new and exciting ourselves. Not be relegated to propagating what some large firm has "developed". Mist of us will never be lucky enough to Find and develop a brand new gene, but it does happen. If you somehow remove that by your specialization process, the desire is going to be seriously injured. Now you could claim less breeders=more business for those left, but that's not the snake market I want to be involved with. I want to have friends I can swap with and have friendly conversations with and meet up at shows and laugh together and have a good time. Not business partners and business meetings where we discuss the depreciation of motley trait over time. I'm not arguing your business sense, but I for one, am not excited about "businessizing" the snake market. Don't know if anyone in the world agrees with me on this, just my opinion.

Yes but 'business partners' in the sense that I am speaking is just an analogy to the same 'friends' situation you spoke of. Just because I use the word business doesn't mean the fun and emotions are removed. I only own 5 snakes at a time (most of them are expensive), my suggestion whether you use the word friends or business partners remains the same - a simple subset inside this forum that helps you meet other breeders that r engaged in the same projects as you can help the efficiency of our industry. Of course I can find that now, but it is not efficient and it doesn't encourage others who want to be part of a said project to state so. In regards to developing morphs, I feel, under a professional heading, that the large breeders will be the ones most inclined to take the big risks and investments. This does not say a local breeder can't have fun doing the samething, it does allow though for some certainty to surface when a new gene hits the market.

I'm not arguing your business sense, but I for one, am not excited about "businessizing" the snake market. Don't know if anyone in the world agrees with me on this, just my opinion.

It won't happen, simply because a lot of people are in this as a hobby, they may make a few bucks on the side doing it, but they are not going to be interested in following a pre-set, sterile business plan that appears on the surface to be a dictated plan.... this is how business shall be done, no offense meant to hogwarts in saying this either, but people have their own ideas of how they want to run their hobby/business and they have their own plans and goals, some small, some big. This is the human element, that in my opinion, is missing from the proposed corporate like plan of how things should be done.

There are a lot of people who are just not interested in running to a certain business model and or collecting and participating in all this proposed data.... and that's one of the main reasons why I believe it simply won't happen, they are just more interested in the animals they have sitting in their homes and their breeding plans. Not in collecting data or being a part of this huge data collection program or expected to play a roll as a developer or being relegated to a tier level sector. If it ever ends up like that, I never want to be a part of it. They will continue to want to do as they have been doing.... messing around with pairings in their homes each winter, to see what becomes of them.... that's where the excitement is, that's what drives this hobby/business forward. The market is as a result, a diverse one, but it's a successful one... the growth this industry has experienced as a result is incredible.

Absolutely. I am only a hobbyist and do not make or really ever care to make money doing this. I proposed to nuture demand I a healthy way, create 'morph groups' to help meet people interested in the same morphs as you, and to help introduce new morphs w/the certainty. I don't any of these result into a cold calculating business model, those were just my examples. Data does interest me but if the market can care less so be it. I only wish to make the buying and selling of ball pythons more efficient.
On a side note, I am absolutely only in this to make great snakes - snakes that have yet to be made. It is this suprise and creative approach that keeps me going. Does anyone have an opinion on the effect of the cg/b on this element? Meaning, will the fact that so many crosses have been made public but yet the snake is still out of reach for many common breeders dampen the demand for it when it does become affordable; at such a time the library of crosses should be fairly long.

Absolutely. I am only a hobbyist and do not make or really ever care to make money doing this. I proposed to nuture demand I a healthy way, create 'morph groups' to help meet people interested in the same morphs as you, and to help introduce new morphs w/the certainty. I don't any of these result into a cold calculating business model, those were just my examples. Data does interest me but if the market can care less so be it. I only wish to make the buying and selling of ball pythons more efficient.
On a side note, I am absolutely only in this to make great snakes - snakes that have yet to be made. It is this suprise and creative approach that keeps me going. Does anyone have an opinion on the effect of the cg/b on this element? Meaning, will the fact that so many crosses have been made public but yet the snake is still out of reach for many common breeders dampen the demand for it when it does become affordable; at such a time the library of crosses should be fairly long.

There are an enormous amount of crosses out there, as far as a certain morph combo losing interest in the eyes of some breeders with a budget restriction .... difficult to say, I'll answer the question by asking you a question.... would you give up on getting an out of reach combo that you have always wanted once it became affordable?

Yes! if the crosses that interest me have already been made, alot of the fun would be removed from my plate. I would simple move to the next morph that has yet to be fully developed.

Yes! if the crosses that interest me have already been made, alot of the fun would be removed from my plate. I would simple move to the next morph that has yet to be fully developed.

This is exactly what makes the market diverse.... and why it has grown so much. I wouldn't, you would.... others would do both. We are all attracted to producing certain morphs because of their visual appeal on the eye of the beholder. It's why we buy, and produce certain morphs in the first place.... a person will also make a decision based on their long term plans that are based on what their current breeding stock is....

But of course! Just thought posting questions to see how deversified it is would be fun. And, most importantly, like my prior posts just trying to find like minded people.

But of course! Just thought posting questions to see how deversified it is would be fun. And, most importantly, like my prior posts just trying to find like minded people.

No worries.... never hurts to discuss issues. :yes:

Let's face it, the pricing in our industry is pretty much arbitrary. It's not based on rarity or demand. Nobody really knows how many of what morph is out there, nor do I think there could be a reliable way to obtain such numbers. Why didn't prices of deserts go up after the Pro Exotics fire? The number of deserts in existence dropped significantly. Supply dropped, but demand didn't. Prices didn't go up.


Prices didn't go up due to the uncertainty that surrounds desserts and because for that price signal to exist demand would need to exhausts supply. Price may be arbitrary when a gene is released, but once out in the market demand and rarity will have a say. Multi-gene morphs have an inherent value linked to the underlining morphs but also to their low probability.

I've said many times on this forum that the originators of a particular gene/morph/combo set the price. Once. That's it. After that, the animal is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it. You can set the price of your brand new animal at whatever you want to set it at, and when you release it, that's the value. However, if you sit on that animal for 2 months because no one is willing to pay the price you set, then it isn't worth as much as you thought it was. Sometimes prices go up. Vanilla? Enchi?

And as we see more genes 'bottoming' out that interact differently with expensive newer genes we should start to see more price fluctuation in genes like vallinas and enchis.