Larry,

I just listened to your radio address about trolls.
First off My request to keep the desert tread as a Sticky had nothing to do with you. I have been keeping up with the female desert issues since day one. I have nothing against the breeders that are up front about the desert issues. I believed the desert thread being a sticky was a "Stand Up move" by BLBC. It was the Only thread at the top of any reptile forum that would help educate the potential female desert buyer about the issues of female deserts.
I am aware of many of the sales pitches that have been used to sale female deserts, I am also aware that some sellers choose not to tell a customer anything, ( These sellers believe the buyer should do his homework).
I set up at the last two shows in Denver, I had four or five people who were considering buying a female desert or female desert morph, ask me questions about deserts. These people had no knowledge of the female desert issues until I told them. The sellers did not mention it in there sales pitch.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to Talk to Mark Ryland before he traded a gorgeous female clown for a female desert( The Owners of the female desert "Art in Scales" didn't tell Mark anything!)
When Mark was made aware of the female desert issues he said he felt like he was taken advantage of. If anyone would like to talk with Mark, Give me a call (720-998-2906)I'll put you in touch with him.
Larry, as you said The desert thread has been the most viewed thread on the BLBC. If keeping it as a sticky helps prevent one more person from being sold a female desert without being told the full story, Then the BLBC is helping OUR hobby.
Know if my stance on this makes me a troll in your eyes, So be it.

Daniel Reed

Larry,

I just listened to your radio address about trolls.
First off My request to keep the desert tread as a Sticky had nothing to do with you. I have been keeping up with the female desert issues since day one. I have nothing against the breeders that are up front about the desert issues. I believed the desert thread being a sticky was a "Stand Up move" by BLBC. It was the Only thread at the top of any reptile forum that would help educate the potential female desert buyer about the issues of female deserts.
I am aware of many of the sales pitches that have been used to sale female deserts, I am also aware that some sellers choose not to tell a customer anything, ( These sellers believe the buyer should do his homework).
I set up at the last two shows in Denver, I had four or five people who were considering buying a female desert or female desert morph, ask me questions about deserts. These people had no knowledge of the female desert issues until I told them. The sellers did not mention it in there sales pitch.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to Talk to Mark Ryland before he traded a gorgeous female clown for a female desert( The Owners of the female desert "Art in Scales" didn't tell Mark anything!)
When Mark was made aware of the female desert issues he said he felt like he was taken advantage of. If anyone would like to talk with Mark, Give me a call (720-998-2906)I'll put you in touch with him.
Larry, as you said The desert thread has been the most viewed thread on the BLBC. If keeping it as a sticky helps prevent one more person from being sold a female desert without being told the full story, Then the BLBC is helping OUR hobby.
Know if my stance on this makes me a troll in your eyes, So be it.

Daniel Reed

when were these shows?

serious- because it has something to do with the price. a clown and a desert female had probably the same price or desert females were even more expensive than clowns.

the huge price crash came in october- i remind on that pretty well

so if they traded before october its a totally fair trade. and dont tell me the guy didnt knew anything. when females cost a year before 3 or more k and this year he can get em for a clown which maybe cost 1k he simply had to witness something.

so thats an importend factor to me.


and what should the sellers tell the potential customers in ur opinion?

there have been a few clutches and a few that slugged out and its not sure whats going on yet- at least to me.

of course theres a good possibility which gets more every year but to me nothing is really PROVEN.

there are a lot of rumors, a few facts and huge gossip- thats it.




so- what should they do in ur opinion? sell em for pet price? doesnt even offer em for sale?

make a huge banner over ur booth which says desert females maybe (probably) have problems laying eggs?



from what ive witnessed (and i know a few customers of randy and michelle) theyre stand up guys which doesnt need to "scam" someone over a clown...lol

have u seen what theyve produced???

If you havent heard about rumors on desert females you have been living under a rock?

If you havent heard about rumors on desert females you have been living under a rock?

Believe it or not there's still people that dont know about the problems with female deserts. Just like the breeder in FL that produced back to back viable clutches from a female desert never heard of any problems with female deserts :dunno:

If their costumer has a problem with the deal.
He should contact them and if he still has a problem.
Then he can come here and start his own thread.

I have bought from Randy and Michelle, Art in Scales.
They have great animals and are very up front people.

Dan, you have accused me of calling you a liar, well now I'm calling you a liar.

We spoke to Mark this evening, he said that he never made the statement that he felt taken advantage of. He has sold the female desert because he doesn't have time to raise her up and needed the finances for his pet shop. He also said he will purchase a desert in the future from us. He said he wants a male to get a quicker return. He isn't unhappy with us at all and has done business with us since the trade. He said he's going to send an email to us and Dan to tell his side of the story and said we can post the email here when we get it. He also said if anyone would like to speak to him about this you can call him directly at 303 618-0404.

The trade between us and Mark happened at the August show in Denver. Chad and Robyn (Pro Exotics) were still breeding deserts at that time and we were looking forward to the results of these breedings. No I didn't mention anything about the "rumor" at the time, because it was just that, a rumor. Unfortunately, Pro Exotics had the fire and lost all their adult desert females, which in my opinion set this project back at least a year.

I find it hard to believe that people at the Denver show see you as the guru to discuss whether or not they should buy a desert. I also wonder why you called me out and not Chad & Robyn (Pro Exotics) or Lynn (Boas and Balls) since they were also selling deserts at the Denver shows.

I think you have twisted the truth to try to make me look bad because I have challenged you in the desert thread about showing me some proof of your negetive exagerations, which I'm still waiting to see and you are still avoiding. Where are those pics of egg bound female deserts?

I have bought from Randy and Michelle, Art in Scales.
They have great animals and are very up front people.

:yes: Agreed.... I have no problem recommending them.

Daniel, Let me be the first to thank you for further proving that Randy and Michelle are HONEST people.All of us that know them personally,have done business with them,or maybe just chatted with them a number of times,know they are great people and know just how idiotic your claims are against them.

You Daniel Reed,are a douchbag.And WOW!...your own thread now leaves us all with no doubt:yessir:

This whole thing is silly. Randy and Michelle have a reputation. And it's a good one. No matter what Daniel Reed says he heard from someone else, one person's hearsay is not going to destroy years worth of hard work and a built from the ground up reputation. Randy and Michelle, I wouldn't spend one more second beyond what you've done giving this attention. I'm not really offering advice as much as voicing how silly this sounds to someone who has no vested interest in the above discussed transaction. I heard about all this stuff before I bought the snakes from you last week and it didn't affect my decision in the least, for what it's worth. Anybody with any sense can weigh your reputation against one persons second hand opinion and come up with the right answer.

I have read both threads now on this subject and if Daniel Reed wants it to be a sticky then maybe it should. But the title should read......"how to ruin your reputation....a blog by Daniel Reed".

I don't see how making up stories is helping anyone here. I believe Randy's version and as far as Daniel goes, dude...get a life! Nobody is buying your crap! I'm pretty sure anyone who is about to fork out that kind of money for a desert is aware of the "issues".

I know Randy & Michelle very well, have known them for several years and have done a lot of business with 'em. I know good & darn well that they would never deceive or mislead anyone for a sale or trade.

I don't know Dan Reed but his posts here tell me all I need to know about him. Secondhand information posted 5 months after-the-fact should raise red flags with anyone/everyone. I don't rely on secondhand information. I get it straight from the horse's mouth, not the horse's butt.

Later!
HH

I know Randy & Michelle very well, have known them for several years and have done a lot of business with 'em. I know good & darn well that they would never deceive or mislead anyone for a sale or trade.

I don't know Dan Reed but his posts here tell me all I need to know about him. Secondhand information posted 5 months after-the-fact should raise red flags with anyone/everyone. I don't rely on secondhand information. I get it straight from the horse's mouth, not the horse's butt.

Later!
HH

And where the hell you been hidin'?? :dunno:

And where the hell you been hidin'?? :dunno:

Under my rock, tryin' to behave myself. I'll PM ya a bit later, Quig. :yes:

Under my rock, tryin' to behave myself. I'll PM ya a bit later, Quig. :yes:

:cheers:

I would like to tell my side of the story with the Desert issue. I traded a Clown for a female Desert at the August Reptile Show to Art in Scales. I’m not saying they did or did not know about the “rumors” about the female desert. In October and November I started to hear about the rumors so at the November show I started to talk to many reputable breeders about the female desert rumors. With me being a “newbie” to breeding ball pythons. I thought at the time a female desert would be like any other female ball python when it comes to breeding. If I knew about the Desert issue I would not have made the trade. I made the decision to sell the Female desert because I don’t have the time or the money to prove the rumors true or false the money would be better spent on other morphs and dry goods for Christmas sales. I told the person I sold the Desert to about the rumors and that I would buy the desert back for any reason.
Thank you
Mark Ryland
The Reptile Jungle
303-4jungle

Thanks Mark :cheers:

I would like to tell my side of the story with the Desert issue. I traded a Clown for a female Desert at the August Reptile Show to Art in Scales. I’m not saying they did or did not know about the “rumors” about the female desert. In October and November I started to hear about the rumors so at the November show I started to talk to many reputable breeders about the female desert rumors. With me being a “newbie” to breeding ball pythons. I thought at the time a female desert would be like any other female ball python when it comes to breeding. If I knew about the Desert issue I would not have made the trade. I made the decision to sell the Female desert because I don’t have the time or the money to prove the rumors true or false the money would be better spent on other morphs and dry goods for Christmas sales. I told the person I sold the Desert to about the rumors and that I would buy the desert back for any reason.
Thank you
Mark Ryland
The Reptile Jungle
303-4jungle


Not exactly what you said over the phone, but maybe you changed your mind on some things. :dunno:

If your customer changes their mind and wants to sell her back to you, I will reimburse you.

Sometimes it is better to take the "High Road", People can see what has gone on with this tread and form there own opinions.

I don't need to "Toot my own Horn".



Regards,



Daniel

Yes we can see Daniel, and the only person painted in a bad light is you. You have "tooted" your horn quite loudly, and we all have a very clear understanding.

Yes we can see Daniel, and the only person painted in a bad light is you. You have "tooted" your horn quite loudly, and we all have a very clear understanding.

Why would Dan be painted in "bad light"?

After all..... there is an entire section of this forum called "the Industry watchdog"...where a lot of you have crucified keepers for much less than selling dud animals.

I see what Dan has done as a stand up thing....something that (if there was NOT self invested interest) many of you would not have a problem with.

Dan is one of the most honest people I've met in this hobby. Nothing wrong with wanting "full disclosure" to be out there... about animals being sold.

D

Why would Dan be painted in "bad light"?

After all..... there is an entire section of this forum called "the Industry watchdog"...where a lot of you have crucified keepers for much less than selling dud animals.

I see what Dan has done as a stand up thing....something that (if there was NOT self invested interest) many of you would not have a problem with.

Sometimes the hypocrisy at this place is unbelievable.

Dan is one of the most honest people I've met in this hobby. Nothing wrong with wanting "full disclosure" to be out there... about animals being sold.

D

So are Art in Scales.... :yes:

Dan called them out as being deceitful for trading a desert female with someone else.... why, I don't know. I could theorize, but that's pointless.

If the person in that trade isn't happy, I'm sure they'd say so, as they have posted about it in this thread. Art in scales, have offered to reimburse if the person they traded with has their customer come back wanting a refund. Isn't that honorable? Good business ethics, I would think.

I don't know Dan, but he has literally treated or crucified art in scales from the word go.... he accused them of calling him a lair.... they didn't. He's accused them of deceitfully trading animals.... again, proof? The person who got the desert wasn't jumping up and down about it.

Personally, I have no problem with Dan's view on female Deserts.... as I have said before, if he wants to step outside that and do as he has been doing to Art in Scales with no proof to back it up, then yeah, people will have a problem with that attitude.

The whole topic of "Full disclosure" isn't a black and white issue.... if you think people shouldn't sell animals because of a rumor at the time, then that's fine. Problem is, If people adopted that line of thought, then powerballs wouldn't of been sold as an example, nor should spotnoses of been sold.... the whole "rumor" that powerballs were a lethal gene proved to be bullshit.... people want more then just a rumor these days, they want some decent proof to back it and hearsay isn't exactly solid proof.... and it doesn't help when some of these rumors and or opinions come from anonymous sources who won't sign their name to it.... or people post saying, I heard....

But all the stuff he has had to say about Art in Scales he hasn't been able to back it up.... so that's why he may get looked at in a bad light.

It's interesting you think this is hypocrisy, that people here have crucified people for less and yet, Dan's crucified someone unjustly and that's okay?

So are Art in Scales.... :yes:

Dan called them out as being deceitful for trading a desert female with someone else.... why, I don't know. I could theorize, but that's pointless.

If the person in that trade isn't happy, I'm sure they'd say so, as they have posted about it in this thread. Art in scales, have offered to reimburse if the person they traded with has their customer come back wanting a refund. Isn't that honorable? Good business ethics, I would think.

I don't know Dan, but he has literally treated or crucified art in scales from the word go.... he accused them of calling him a lair.... they didn't. He's accused them of deceitfully trading animals.... again, proof? The person who got the desert wasn't jumping up and down about it.

Personally, I have no problem with Dan's view on female Deserts.... as I have said before, if he wants to step outside that and do as he has been doing to Art in Scales with no proof to back it up, then yeah, people will have a problem with that attitude.

The whole topic of "Full disclosure" isn't a black and white issue.... if you think people shouldn't sell animals because of a rumor at the time, then that's fine. Problem is, If people adopted that line of thought, then powerballs wouldn't of been sold as an example, nor should spotnoses of been sold.... the whole "rumor" that powerballs were a lethal gene proved to be bullshit.... people want more then just a rumor these days, they want some decent proof to back it and hearsay isn't exactly solid proof.... and it doesn't help when some of these rumors and or opinions come from anonymous sources who won't sign their name to it.... or people post saying, I heard....

But all the stuff he has had to say about Art in Scales he hasn't been able to back it up.... so that's why he may get looked at in a bad light.

It's interesting you think this is hypocrisy, that people here have crucified people for less and yet, Dan's crucified someone unjustly and that's okay?

Not in my book its not. :mad:

Below is some of the information I call facts! NOT RUMORS
All of these posts were made before the August show.
Everyone of these posts pertain to information the poster is stating, Not second had information!
All of the people below who made the posts below, are respected people in our hobby.
Are you calling them liars? are they spreading rumors?



1.
Here is a link to a picture of a female desert( tiger) on slugs I believe what Mr.Woolard states here is a fact

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch...13922&key=2011

2.
Here is a copy of a post about the results of Mr. Woolard's other desert females.
I believe what Mr. Woolard states here is a fact.

06-08-2011, 09:56 AM
John Woolard
Bush-League Pvt 1st Class
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 240



Hi everyone- been crazy busy and was out of town, but I wanted to update you on the status of my desert females for this season. As posted above, my tiger slugged out 20 days after her POS. I had a second desert lay slugs on the 2nd and 3rd of this month, which was 26 days after the POS. I had high hopes for these girls and anticipated a third female to go, but it doesn't appear as though she will. All of the deserts I bred this year were paired with different males (some proven, some not).
While I'm disappointed that my desert females didn't lay viable clutches this year, I have not written them off at all. Every of these girls was breeding size (at least 1700 grams) and several years old, but I intend to put more weight on them and try again next season.
I want to share my experiences (good/bad) because I fully believe in this great morph and support all of those working with the desert gene. I think the more information and data we can collect the better. So, I also encourage those with breeder females to add your experiences here and let's work together on this.
Wishing you all great success!




3.
Here is a copy of a post to me from Chad Brown where he tells the results of a female desert that became egg bound in 2008.( 2008 is based on
Chad saying Two years ago from the date of his post July 22nd 2010)
Chad also states in the following year 2009 he had a female desert lay slugs.
I believe What Mr. Brown says here is a fact.

Posted by: chad_proexotics at Thu Jul 22 13:14:20 2010 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by chad_proexotics ] [ Log in to Follow this user on Connect ]

Daniel,
A few thoughts I want to pass along.....
I'm not sure of Stan's history of breeding Desert females so I can't answer anything about his experiences.
We tried two years ago with a 1200 gram-ish female and she was unable to pass the eggs. We aspirated the eggs and she passed the empty eggs a few weeks later. Last year we had a female lay slugs for us. She didn't appear to have a problem getting the slugs out. This year I just had one female Desert ovulate and I'm expecting one or two to go soon. All three of those girls had been bred by a Desert line male of some type. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Super Deserts!

4.
Here is a coby of a post from Robyn Marklund dated Jan. 18th 2011 stating according to the timeline they got slugs from a couple females last year (2010)
I believe what Mr. Marklund states her is fact.

Posted by: robyn@ProExotics at Tue Jan 18 13:19:19 2011 [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by robyn@ProExotics ] [ Log in to Follow this user on Connect ]

We only had a couple of Desert females go last year, and we got slugs.

We have a number of females nearing 2000 grams, and I expect those two breed successfully this season : )
-----
robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

5.
Here is a copy of Ben Renicks post again, Ben states his desert female dropped one slug and died with the other slugs inside her.
I believe what Mr. Renick states here is fact.


07-12-2011, 11:08 AM
Ben_renick
Bush-League Corporal
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 434

And now for the final update on my Desert female. This morning I came into my building, checked on her, she had dropped one slug and was belly up. I palpated the rest out of her at the time, 5 slugs in total. Sorry this isn't the news anyone wanted to hear, including myself! But I guess that's just how it goes!

Not in my book its not. :mad:

Art in Scales traded the Female desert in August. They stated that at that time they didn't say anything because the information available about female deserts was all rumors. As I said in my above post, These were FACTS at that time, not rumors

Art in Scales traded the Female desert in August. They stated that at that time they didn't say anything because the information available about female deserts was all rumors. As I said in my above post, These were FACTS at that time, not rumors

And he has offered to reimburse him if the 2nd buyer wants to return it.

Art in Scales traded the Female desert in August. They stated that at that time they didn't say anything because the information available about female deserts was all rumors. As I said in my above post, These were FACTS at that time, not rumors

You are making a pretty big leap here in my opinion. First of all, are you claiming that Art in Scales had access to personal conversations between yourself and Chad/Robyn at ProExotics before they made that trade? If not, then 40% of your "facts" are invalid right there. Besides that fact, you've given 5 examples of female deserts on slugs, one dead. No real proof, just your word that you believe it is true. Doesn't matter whether I believe those people or not. Most likely I do, but still makes no difference. It's 5 snakes. Since when does 5 snakes completely validate a rumor? For what it's worth, I think the "rumor" is just now leaving the realm of "rumor" and into "probable truth". I still don't think all the facts are out there. But the problem with your claims are way too far reaching to make me judge Art in Scales negatively. You have your reasons, but everyone in the world doesn't have to agree with you. So if you don't mind, tell us what it is you'd like the rest of us to do.
1. Never do business with Art in Scales again?
2. Spread your message to the rest of the world?
3. Take up a collection for your friend and refund their money?
4. Go to Colorado and stone them for their actions?
5. Somehow go there and force them to admit that you are right?

We've heard you already. What else is it you are wanting?

Art in Scales traded the Female desert in August. They stated that at that time they didn't say anything because the information available about female deserts was all rumors. As I said in my above post, These were FACTS at that time, not rumors

What you've posted are indeed facts at the time, but that isn't exactly much in terms of numbers, what, 3, 4 or 5.... it isn't easy to follow. As everyone can see at the time, I think it was, someone had posted a desert on good eggs.... of course, all the doubters don't want to believe it and the guy got bashed pretty hard on ks I think it was.

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showpost.php?p=596794&postcount=93

Then there was Albey's post where he posts telling you of another breeder who produced 2 good clutches....


So, based on your facts, as few as they are.... does that mean people with desert females at the time should of dumped all their female deserts based on 3 or 4 bad clutch results?

Point I'm making here is, going back to the August show when the trade happened, does that mean Art in Scales are automatically guilty because they don't agree with the rumors at the time, that desert females don't produce viable clutches.... when there were what 3 viable clutches out there and your posted facts or 3 or 4 bad ones?

I wouldn't call that over whelming support that females are not viable at that time the trade was made.... the whole problem here is the "RUMOR" you are circulating that Art in Scales are deceitful.... and you continue to push. And again, you can't back it up.... the few facts you posted and the ones you decided not to post that show a pretty even balance on clutch results at the time just don't support your claim.

Dan, you've never had a girl slug out on you? I had a female in 2010 give me a whole pile of slugs, does that mean normals don't reproduce? In 2011, the same girl gave me a beautiful clutch of 7 eggs. Just because a few desert girls had some slugs doesn't mean all deserts lay slugs.

Then there's this post in Kingsnake.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1919964,1919964&key=2011

This is the guy that posted pics of his desert to desert clutch and the female sitting on eggs dated June 14, 2011. We never heard what happened to the clutch because he was racked over the coals by some saying it wasn't a desert.

Here is something Chad (Pro Exotics) said less than a week ago. It explains what you brought up about the 1200g female in a little more detail.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1961136,1961143

This was going to be the year, at least from my side, that I figured out what is going on with Desert females. With that large number of females, I would have a chance to try a few different temp set ups. Now, this thinking behind using cooler temp wasn't just made up. It comes from understand python reproduction. Too high of temps can cause ovulation too early and lead to slugs. Cooler temps, less chance of slugs. I've seen it work in my own collection. It makes sense to me that Desert girls could need slightly lower temps to not produce slugs. It made enough sense to me that I held back tons of Desert girls LAST YEAR.
When I got the group from Stan, one small Desert girl was gravid. She was less than 1200 grams. Because Stan kept his snakes in racks without heat, when I got them, I set them up the same way. Room temp, and no extra heat. That female was unable to pass the eggs (she was way too small, the smallest gravid ball I've every seen) and I had to aspirate the eggs to get them out of her. When she passed them, it was clear they were eggs not slugs. That event is another reason I think the cooler temp should help.
I've also had a friend who shared that his friend produced good eggs from a Desert females two years in a row. That guys kept his snakes at room temp. No extra heat. Another reason why I think cooler temp should help.
So the cooler temp thing isn't made up bullcrap. It comes from events that follow along with what I have learned about python reprooduction in a past few years.
Do I think Desert females have a trick to getting them to go? Yep. Is it cooler temps? I was going to find out this year, but I thought that would be the trick.

When I did the trade with Mark, the desert info was still limited and contradictory. Chad was still breeding and we were waiting on results from that. Prior to this rumor, we had the rumor about desert females don't eat and don't grow. That rumor had already been squashed by August, I felt this one might be squashed as well.

At this point I do agree that there's something up with the desert females and this is why I offered to reimburse Mark if his customer returns the female. Will we be able to get good eggs out of these girls? I certainly hope so, desert is an awesome gene. I agree with Chad that cooler temps will be the key and I don't mean a cooler hotspot, I mean room temp.

Here are a few problems I see with Dan's "facts." All of these are direct quotes from his post.


2.
... All of the deserts I bred this year were paired with different males (some proven, some not).
While I'm disappointed that my desert females didn't lay viable clutches this year, I have not written them off at all.

3.
...I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Super Deserts!

4.
...We have a number of females nearing 2000 grams, and I expect those two breed successfully this season : )


......................

Sometimes it is better to take the "High Road",...

Dan - I suggest that you take your own advice. It appears to me that you're in the ditch, not on the road. The more mud you sling, the dirtier you get. I find it interesting that within the last 5 days since you started this thread you've posted in 2 other threads, but didn't post in this one again until after Art In Scales proved that they're stand-up people by offering to buy the snake back. That made them look good & it appears that it bothers you so you take a few more shots at them.


...I set up at the last two shows in Denver, I had four or five people who were considering buying a female desert or female desert morph,...

Daniel Reed

So,........... If Art In Scales' reputation gets damaged you stand to gain from it? Hmmmm....... :rolleyes:

I find it interesting that within the last 5 days since you started this thread you've posted in 2 other threads, but didn't post in this one again until after Art In Scales proved that they're stand-up people by offering to buy the snake back. That made them look good & it appears that it bothers you so you take a few more shots at them.


Just to clarify, Dan posted the first post of this thread in the Any Desert News thread.... because calling someone out and making the accusations he did has nothing to do with the topic of data collection for the Any Desert News thread, it was moved to the gossip section where this kind of discussion belongs.

Who put the title of this thread? Was it Dan or the mod that moved it?

Who put the title of this thread? Was it Dan or the mod that moved it?

The mod did it.

Who put the title of this thread? Was it Dan or the mod that moved it?

I did - he's calling them out, so that was what I put....

I did - he's calling them out, so that was what I put....

I did not call anyone out! I used them as an example of what has been
going on with female deserts. Art in Scales did the right thing by offering to make it right.

Daniel

I did not call anyone out! I used them as an example of what has been
going on with female deserts. Art in Scales did the right thing by offering to make it right.

Daniel

OK. Threads over. Can we get back to our regularly scheduled programming now?

I did not call anyone out! I used them as an example of what has been
going on with female deserts. Art in Scales did the right thing by offering to make it right.

Daniel

Okay, fair enough.... :yes:

Dan, you've never had a girl slug out on you? I had a female in 2010 give me a whole pile of slugs, does that mean normals don't reproduce? In 2011, the same girl gave me a beautiful clutch of 7 eggs. Just because a few desert girls had some slugs doesn't mean all deserts lay slugs.

Then there's this post in Kingsnake.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1919964,1919964&key=2011

This is the guy that posted pics of his desert to desert clutch and the female sitting on eggs dated June 14, 2011. We never heard what happened to the clutch because he was racked over the coals by some saying it wasn't a desert.

Here is something Chad (Pro Exotics) said less than a week ago. It explains what you brought up about the 1200g female in a little more detail.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1961136,1961143

This was going to be the year, at least from my side, that I figured out what is going on with Desert females. With that large number of females, I would have a chance to try a few different temp set ups. Now, this thinking behind using cooler temp wasn't just made up. It comes from understand python reproduction. Too high of temps can cause ovulation too early and lead to slugs. Cooler temps, less chance of slugs. I've seen it work in my own collection. It makes sense to me that Desert girls could need slightly lower temps to not produce slugs. It made enough sense to me that I held back tons of Desert girls LAST YEAR.
When I got the group from Stan, one small Desert girl was gravid. She was less than 1200 grams. Because Stan kept his snakes in racks without heat, when I got them, I set them up the same way. Room temp, and no extra heat. That female was unable to pass the eggs (she was way too small, the smallest gravid ball I've every seen) and I had to aspirate the eggs to get them out of her. When she passed them, it was clear they were eggs not slugs. That event is another reason I think the cooler temp should help.
I've also had a friend who shared that his friend produced good eggs from a Desert females two years in a row. That guys kept his snakes at room temp. No extra heat. Another reason why I think cooler temp should help.
So the cooler temp thing isn't made up bullcrap. It comes from events that follow along with what I have learned about python reprooduction in a past few years.
Do I think Desert females have a trick to getting them to go? Yep. Is it cooler temps? I was going to find out this year, but I thought that would be the trick.

When I did the trade with Mark, the desert info was still limited and contradictory. Chad was still breeding and we were waiting on results from that. Prior to this rumor, we had the rumor about desert females don't eat and don't grow. That rumor had already been squashed by August, I felt this one might be squashed as well.

At this point I do agree that there's something up with the desert females and this is why I offered to reimburse Mark if his customer returns the female. Will we be able to get good eggs out of these girls? I certainly hope so, desert is an awesome gene. I agree with Chad that cooler temps will be the key and I don't mean a cooler hotspot, I mean room temp.


Randy & Michelle


Yes, Offering to reverse the trade/give a refund to Mark is a stand up move.

If what you are saying in your above post is, With the knowledge you have now, you will tell potential desert female buyers in the future about the issues with female deserts..Great:yes:

My example of what happened to Mark is exactly why I requested to have the Desert thread placed back as a sticky. I will take you for your word that you had no intention of holding back information so you could make the trade.


Daniel Reed

Randy & Michelle


Yes, Offering to reverse the trade/give a refund to Mark is a stand up move.

If what you are saying in your above post is, With the knowledge you have now, you will tell potential desert female buyers in the future about the issues with female deserts..Great:yes:

My example of what happened to Mark is exactly why I requested to have the Desert thread placed back as a sticky. I will take you for your word that you had no intention of holding back information so you could make the trade.


Daniel Reed

It's a sticky because of the recent info posted by Albey, which creates a surge in interest. It makes sense to stick new info on such a topic.

I should clarify that, I was speaking about Dan pushing the issue in the Desert thread.....NOT calling out Art In Scales.

I believe Art in scales did nothing wrong....provided that they didn't know about the Desert "rumors" before their dealings.

In fact, I think it very commendable that they're willing to do this.....


If your customer changes their mind and wants to sell her back to you, I will reimburse you.

Awesome. That's the right thing to do.

Cheers guys,
D

I should clarify that, I was speaking about Dan pushing the issue in the Desert thread.....NOT calling out Art In Scales.

D

No worries.... it's the internet, things aren't always clear as day.