Hello "other python" keepers! I have a question I was hoping many of you could help me answer.
I always hear or read people saying I am going to get some blackheaded pythons or blackheads are on my wish list or I really want to get some blackheaded pythons. So I had a question for python keepers! Are many of you really wanting to get some Blackheads? What makes you not have any now? Is it price? Size? Rumors of difficulty breeding? Hard to find? Or is it several of those reasons combined? Or have you recently bought some? I know they are not cheap and I know times are a little tough to be buying expensive snakes but I am just wondering. I just wanted to get a little feedback to see what other python keepers are thinking about blackheaded pythons. Your input is appreciated! Tom

Hey Tom....

The only challenge that stops me is the cash.... I think you'll find that to be the same for most people... I can afford them now, but it's like Boeleni, i'll just wait till the price comes down. I have a ton of other projects i'm working on.

If you and Derek start selling them at say, $1500 a pair I'll buy a few from you this spring :cheers: with a free Axanthic? ok, het will do

Finding them is never a problem, at least for me. Size, nah.. Challenge breeding? that's what i enjoy...

Rob

Hello "other python" keepers! I have a question I was hoping many of you could help me answer.
I always hear or read people saying I am going to get some blackheaded pythons or blackheads are on my wish list or I really want to get some blackheaded pythons. So I had a question for python keepers! Are many of you really wanting to get some Blackheads? What makes you not have any now? Is it price? Size? Rumors of difficulty breeding? Hard to find? Or is it several of those reasons combined? Or have you recently bought some? I know they are not cheap and I know times are a little tough to be buying expensive snakes but I am just wondering. I just wanted to get a little feedback to see what other python keepers are thinking about blackheaded pythons. Your input is appreciated! Tom

Price is really not a problem...The problem I have is finding the BH's I want...I want clean - crisp banded BH's - Not muddy average ones...Back in 07 I emailed Jim Sargent and Matt Turner about getting on the their waiting list...They said no problem but I never heard back from them...I wanted to get some in Daytona in 08 but I ended up blowing my load on BP's...This year - I will get at least a pair - Come hell or high water...I really love my Womas but I want to take it up a notch...:yessir:

Thanks! I hope we get lots of answers from all different types of people!

BT, what colors were you looking for?

Here are some misc. pics. of some of my BH's. They come in so many different colors its hard to just get one!

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/P6055923-1.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/P6055951-1.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/P3164175.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/P4026260.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/P7050218.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/PB170126.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/PB270418.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/P4235752.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/PC211202.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/P1064082.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/PC211177.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/axanthicblack4.jpg
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/P5025948.jpg

Thanks! I hope we get lots of answers from all different types of people!

BT, what colors were you looking for?

Here are some misc. pics. of some of my BH's. They come in so many different colors its hard to just get one!

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/P6055951-1.jpg

If this one was for sell - We'd be talking...:rockon:...That's exactly what I'd like - Well besides a pair of Axanthics...I really like the black and whites...Tell us the difference between the Easterns and Westerns...Color? Size? Check your PM too when you get a chance...:yessir:

Oh my...:D Shhheeewwweee yep those are the bomb..

:wamma::wamma:

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/axanthicblack4.jpg


I'd love to take on these guys, as well. But price and space/caging for these guys are a bit out of my reach. I love 'em but they are at the top of my size limit for keeping.

Cheers,
Kat

nice critters tom...
hope to get a nice female one day.
want my kids to grow a little bigger first, and want to be totally set up to house it (which i'm not right now) spacewise.
but they really are beautiful...
ck

The only thing holding me back right now is space issues. Money doesn't tend to be problem when it comes to something I really want, I can usually find a way to work it out. Although if I had all the space I'd like, money might become an issue because there are just a ton of species I'd like to add to the collection.

Money is definitely an issue with me so I went a little less for a very nice Woma instead. That's not to say I want the BHP to drop in price. I also wouldn't pay less for a less striking BHP. I just have to work with the amount of money I have to try to get the nicest animals I can, and unfortunately I can't have everything I want all at once so I just have to try to get there in time. They are awesome animals though, and I think we'll be seeing some interesting combo morphs from them in the future.

I would love to have them. They have been on my list for quite a while. I just got other things first. I will get a pair in the next couple years for sure.

For me its the size issue. Just dont have the room

I've been planning on getting some blackheads for about 17 years now.
The only reason I haven't is the price. Not that they're over priced, just that the market value of them for good quality specimens is more than I generally pay for any snake. With the current economy, that issue is even more pronounced.
If I have a good season this year, or better yet am offered some trading opportunities I will get them, but if not I'll wait. I've never been in a hurry to get anything, it took me nearly 15 years to buy my first albino ball.
My animals buy me other animals, that's the way I do it.

I've been wanting to get a pair for years, but money is an issue with me as well as space. In fact space may even be a bigger issue. SOMETHING would have to go in order to make room for the large cages I'd need for these guys, probably either the burms or some of the carpets. I'm just not ready to get rid of either one of those yet so I'll have to content myself with learning more about them and dreaming, at least for the time being. Is there a site with some really good info on care? I've seen a few pretty good sites but not something that went into great detail or history.

Money and space are my issues. Those are some real smokers Tom! Looking forward to seeing more of them and hearing your take on care and such!

Once you have a Blackhead there is few snakes like it. They are one of the best things I keep. Of course they were from Tom. And maybe one day I can Wrestle and Axanthic away from him. But I am happy with what I have

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3171/3070095540_9b06e82945_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2095/2408080547_030d0748e2.jpg

Wow, tohose are some amazing looking animals! So how big do they get?

Black heads are all I want to get this year.... I had a few 15 years ago, but time to get back to where I once belong :cheers:

Those are all killer Black heads! :master::yessir:

AHH those are simply stunning! keep in touch! if you are still breeding in a few years i will have to see if i can get something off you >.>
my problem with not being able to get one or two now is because i live with a mother that is just SLIGHTLY terrified of snakes and a tad bit anti animal in general >.>
few more years though i wont have to deal with that and i hope i can start adding rapidly to my collection!

Tom, for me the single factor keeping me from owning a Blackhead or two is PRICE.

To echo what Rob said, I love a challenge because the reward is worth the effort. I don't expect my Moluccan scrubs to breed like Ball Pythons, and my Chondros are definately not easy to go from start to finish with them. The challenge that these animals provide has always been a source of inspiration for me.

Space is tight but I would find a way to fit BHPs into my collection.

There are plenty available all over the net and like BT mentioned the quality might not always be there. But for me to see the same ones for sale month after month takes a lot of the "rareness" cool factor away from BHPs. I start looking at them like Angolans, just another common "investor" snake. When I saw my first BHPs in person at **** Gorgens table at the NRBE Orlando in '92 he had them listed @ $7500 each. Back then not a lot of snakes went for that much, but they were also pretty rare so the price didn't seem to out of place. Now my local herp shop has a huge male BHP that they paid only $500 for and it is a nice looking snake but it further gives me the impression that these are more common and I am not willing to spend the money on them.

I hope one day I can add them to my collection. I have had so much fun with my Womas that I would like to compare that to BHPs. Unfortunately the down economy and the fact that even if I had the money I wouldn't buy BHPs at their current price level, means I will just have to be patient and enjoy what I am working with now.

I think a lot of people over estimate the spending ability of the average herper. A lot more herpers can afford a couple hundred for something than those that can afford a couple thousand in my opinion. Also high dollar snakes tend to go to people that want to produce more of those snakes and so on and so on, but at some point all the people willing to spend $$$ on a certain snake already have them. The next level of demand is with people that want them mainly as pets or hobbiest that want to tinker with breeding but are not that concerned with return on investment and breeders seem to fight tooth and nail to keep prices from going to the next level because there is a big price gap between the two.

I just realised how much I am rambling...doh.... so um yeah price is my main obstacle to adding BHPs. Just my perspective from the bottom of the food chain.:cheers:

Tom, you have some amazing BHPs in your collection and I have seen your Ringed pythons at Daytona and those are seriously impressive.


Mods: how come Mr. Gorgens first name is censored out?

Mods: how come Mr. Gorgens first name is censored out?

The sites censor is picking it up....

By and large, it's price for me as well - just can't manage that. (Not to mention that my wife went just a little ballistic when I came home with a little pinstripe ball python lad!)

Seeing your yellow & reds, and that amazing "zebra" morph, though . . . well, they've moved up a notch.

~Bruce

Money. That's all. I would totally have one(or more) in my living room on display. I'm toying with the idea of waiting until albinos come available... but maybe a normal blackhead, then later(years) I would also get a albino.
When I have funds to get one, I'm totally getting one, becuase they are awesome snakes. I've decided to pass on getting womas, because I'm holding out for a blackhead.

Thanks to everyone who answered my question so far and all the nice comments! It looks like price and space are the biggest factors so far.

I am new to this site and I have to say I really like the attitude and the positive feedback from everyone so far. I am not sure if most people here are newer to reptiles or have been in this for many years. I wish everyone kept the same screen names from site to site! LOL

It is good to hear from the people that are actually thinking of getting into blackheads to see what their thoughts are. I keep and breed my snakes for fun and as a hobby and I really enjoy all the work it takes. This year with the number of females I have that could produce and the way economy is I would like to hear from more people that were actually wanting or have been thinking about getting into blackheads.

As far as space issues go most BHP's are between 6-8 foot and need a 4 foot cage. Some can get larger in the 7-10 range and should be kept in a 6 foot cage. If you are ball python keepers yes the space is a major difference compared to a rack of 32 qt tubs but if you are keeping Colombian Boas and such the space should be about the same.

Kevin, you get an answer all to yourself for your rambling! Just kidding! Actually I think womas are what your remembering on Richards (****) Georgen's table for $7500. The BHP's back then were $10,000. I still have a 1994 price list with the womas as $7500. and the BHP's were Inquire which were $10,000. and the Ring pythons were $750. each. I shared a table selling at that 1992 show. I feel the main difference is not how many animals were available at that time as how information was shared back then. There were no Internet reptile sites. We got mailed snake lists or faxes from wholesalers with no pictures and a list of different snakes. That's also why the shows are not as spectacular as they were, but those are the times and the times are changing. Now you can see what's for sale all over the world at your desk. Breeders also did not share their secrets or breeding information back then. I bought my womas from **** Georgen for a lot of money back then and got a good luck chuckle for advise! I also feel that you get people dumping or selling out of some animals that they have no luck working with. Yes older males of most species are much more common and at a cheaper price but what I am talking about is quality hatchlings or young healthy animals that don't have unknown issues. Its kinda like vehicles most people, if they can afford it, don't buy the old rusted out clunker on the used car lot because its cheap but they still buy the new expensive models. Ok now I'm rambling! LOL

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/DSC_0248.jpg

But again thanks and keep the info coming!

My only holdback this far has been space and money at the same time.

WOW, that list brings back memories! If I remember correctly it had 2 or 4 photos at the top and I only remember a JCP and I think a Hogg island boa on it. I wish I still had all my old lists from back then, I used to have a stack of brightly colored lists from Crutchfield and those would be cool to look back on.

You are right about the womas at the table but ya gotta give me points for being close. I hope you didn't take my post as a slight, because I have a lot of respect for you as a breeder, but sometimes I can go off on a tangent when I start thinking about the old days. I often miss the adventurous spirit back then, but I also am appreciative for the resources we have now.

Blackheads to me have always been one of the "elite" snakes along with Womas and a few select others and they will hold that status with me at any price. Affordability out weighs value in this instance, but I will still continue to admire BHPs. I used a bad example when I said they are to common to buy at the price they are at, I should have stated that after being burned with the Ball thing I will only spend a certain amount of money on any snake period.

Price discussions have a way of touching off my bitterness for the "business" and "marketing" side of this hobby.:devil:

Kevin, wow great memory!

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/DSC_0250.jpg

Blackheads will always be one of my elite! But I completely understand your point. :D

Once you take the plunge and buy a pair of BHPs ,you will be glad you did.I have my first pair of Westerns and they are truly magnificent serpents.They have been trouble free and along with Angolans ,probably the reason i started keeping snakes as a boy.I f they were $100 a piece they would still be the pride of my collection.My only regret is it would be difficult to buy any of Toms or Dereks animals as i live in Canada! If only... Mickey.

Kevin, wow great memory!

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn133/snake15383/DSC_0250.jpg

Blackheads will always be one of my elite! But I completely understand your point. :D

That was one of the first lists that I remember having photos. I would just stare at that list and others and dream of the snakes I wanted to get. I finally got a pair of Womas this past summer and I still admire them as much as when I used to stare at that list years ago.

If things go good with the BPs, Womas, Childrens, and Chondros this year then maybe I'll be able add a BHP to the collection.

As for the cage size issue, well I think you can turn that into a positive by creating a display type set-up. It doesn't have to be too complex to be visually pleasing and can be a nice change of pace for those that work with a lot of racks.

Tom thanks for bringing back some cool memories and for being a class act about your dedication to BHPs while also recognizing the economic hardships that many herpers are facing.:cheers:

Awesome pictures tom... don't stop posting those. I'm still in college so the issue here would be dropping that kind of cash before I graduate this year.... Once I'm done and I have some serious savings I will be looking to get some of these. You better believe I'll be looking for the nicest examples I can find too! I would love to have a few monster females blackheads breeding!

I hear you guys on "paying the price"...so to speak but, I believe there's something to be said for doing so.
I remember wanting BHPs so bad that..........

I saved up and got them. Hahaha.....Took me years to do so.


I'm so glad I did...at the time...instead of "waiting for the price to come down".
Now, I'm not rich...I'm far from it but...the price didn't stop me from getting the animals I wanted to work with.
Now, this statement is key......"work with".

Let's think about this for a minute. What natural occurring species, still commands BHP type of money... other than Boelens and Angolans? Hardly any.

So, what happens when every snake species is 500, 300, 150 a pair?
Do we still have that same want? That urge to "build up" to them?
What's left? What will give us that thrill of "attaining" at the "unattainable"?

And, while you may see BHP being offered...there are still less of them being produced than most other species.
I'll be the first to tell you that.... they aren't easy. Price is where it is because the animals are few and far between still. 3 of the big BHP breeders didn't even produce them the last couple years and it wasn't because they didn't try.
I saw 6 different ads from 6 different people from one clutch of animals this year.
Gives the illusion that there a lot out there but.....really only a few clutches were produced...mostly by Keogan over there in the dungeon. Haha.

I also hatched a good many...but all of it...is still luck at this point. We're getting better at it but, I still think there are too many variables still to produce 100% clutches year after year.

And, that's the fun of it.

It's not like Carpets. Hell, in Florida...you can put Carpets eggs in a 88 degree room on a shelf and they'll hatch.

I'm willing to work with those (Like Tom said) who are truly interested in getting the animals..... because I love these guys and would like to see more people working with them because of their "lack of consistency". There's much to be discovered about them.
We just found out that they do in fact have a heat pit... only 3 months ago. Some of us had a suspicion... as they react to warm objects.... over scent.

There will be a very bright future for them, as long as people truly work with them and don't use them as part of a "wish list"....so to speak.

I sure do love em'...they're great animals with a personality like no other Python.

I understand what the high price means to most of us. I just think that it's not necessarily a bad thing. I use to ask the question..."why are they so much money???"...now that I have them....I understand.

Cheers,
D.

Great points Derrick, but I think the difference is that many people, myself included, want to work with BHPs but not exclusivley. There are a great variety of herps to work with that are within budget. The qualities you mentioned about BHPs can also be found in other species as well.

Fewer Moluccan Pythons have been bred in captivity than BHPs and they have pretty inquisitive personalities and they demand a great deal of respect hence for me they are challenging and fun to keep. They are also a fraction of the cost of BHPs, but trust me if I hatch some down the road I will be as excited as if I hit the lotto.

I have the same feelings about BHPs but I am not willing to put that kind of cash on the line and I guess that make me unworthy to work with BHPs. Bummer, they are awesome but I know I am not the only one that feels this way. I went to get snake food tonight and we were talking about this thread while admiring the massive BHP that was practically given to them. Everyone agreed that they would love to keep Blackheads but were unwilling to pay the high price. For now they work with herps that they still have a passion and are quite good at it. Herpers like my friends and I may be dismissed because of our small bank accounts but we are very experienced, knowledgable, and skilled at our craft and could possibly contribute to the work with Blackheads. I don't think a yuppie with some extra cash to blow is going contribute much to the "work" with BHPs. I have been to enough shows in the last 18 years to see plenty of these fad seekers with money burning a hole in their wallet.

I am not downing BHPs to say that the hard work that goes into being successful shouldn't be rewarded. I am just saying that it is a little unfair to say that those of us that want to wait till we can afford them are not worthy of "working" with them. In the end I think the BHP community is missing out on some talented people, but if people are willing to pay what your asking then that is just the free market at it's finest. If people are not willing to pay your price and you want to just keep them all to yourself thats cool, I mean they are the results of your hard work so you more than have the right to stand your ground.

The consumers have a say in what they are willing to spend. That is cool that you saved up for yours, but right now that isn't a realistic oppertunity for many herpers due to economic reasons.

Blackheads are at the top of my list of snakes that I have dreamed of owning, and they will stay at the top of that list until I finally own one. Until that happens I will continue to enjoy my humble collection.

Excellent post Kevin! :cheers: You pretty much summed up my sentiments!

I guess I'm reading Dereks post different than you guys...IMO - BHP's are no more expensive than a lot of BP morphs...So why are you willing to pay $1500 - $2K - $3K for a BP morph but not a BHP? I didn't read anywhere in Derek's post that said you where unworthy of working with BHP's if you didn't want to pay the high price...

I for one appreciate that BHP's prices have stayed high...I appreciate that they aren't easy to reproduce...And my bank account isn't any bigger than your normal everyday average Joe Blow...

I guess I'm reading Dereks post different than you guys...IMO - BHP's are no more expensive than a lot of BP morphs...So why are you willing to pay $1500 - $2K - $3K for a BP morph but not a BHP? I didn't read anywhere in Derek's post that said you where unworthy of working with BHP's if you didn't want to pay the high price...

I for one appreciate that BHP's prices have stayed high...I appreciate that they aren't easy to reproduce...And my bank account isn't any bigger than your normal everyday average Joe Blow...

Honestly BT, I am not willing to pay those prices for BP morphs anymore. I will do trades for higher dollar stuff but I just won't fork out the cash. It is just a personal choice I made, and in fact I would spend the money on BHPs before I spent it on anymore BP morphs.

My bank account comment wasn't meant to call out hobbiest that can afford BHPs but rather to reflect my own dilema. From the amount of respones where price is the main factor and my own conversation last night with some friends it is clear that I am not alone here. There is a huge demand out there, but not until they reach a more attainable price level.

I reread Dereks post, and I still get the impression that he feels that inorder to prove how much you want to work with Blackheads you have to be willing to pay the price. I just disagree with this because I really have a desire to work with them but economically I can't do it. If that makes me a sideline watcher then it is what it is! Price simply doesn't dictate my desire to work with a particular species.

When I responed to Toms original post I could have just said PRICE and left it at that, but I wanted to explain my reasons why price was a factor for me and that it wasn't just an issue of economic pressure but also a more cautious attitude toward spending on higher end animals. I also wanted to create a discussion on the pricing of BHPs and Derek and Tom did a great job explaining their perspective.

I just want them to know the demand is there, and many people are on the sidelines simply because of PRICE. That is the answer to Toms question along with the space issue to a lesser degree. None of my friends participate online but I still asked for their input and they also had the same issue with price and to a lesser degree space.

Please don't take make my discussion as a demand to lower BHP prices. It is simply my way of explaining why a lot of people, myself included, haven't added Blackheads despite the desire to keep them.

Also, they are a majestic python not because they are high end collectors species, but just because they are an amazing species with a lot of good traits that will never change no matter what price they go for.

I am not willing to put that kind of cash on the line and I guess that make me unworthy to work with BHPs.

O.K. I didn't say that anywhere in my post and nobody is unworthy to work with them.

Honestly BT, I am not willing to pay those prices for BP morphs anymore.

O.K. So at one time....you would have spent the money because you paid that much for Ball Pythons? This is what I was talking about. You saved and got the expensive morphs........so, Why? Was it to turn a profit? Was it to enjoy the animal regardless of price?

As far what stuff is worth....it's worth what people are will to pay. That said, I've sold every pair I've looked to move. In fact, I've gotten more from some of them than I intended on asking..... in certain instances.

It comes down to what YOU want. If you want the animals.....really want the animals....you'll pay for them.....that's all I was saying in my post.

Is it fair? I don't know. Haha.
I wish Boelens weren't so much.....but they are.
And, I'm saving. Haha. Why, because I want them.

Cheers,
D.

Kevin, I want to thank you for your more informative answers. That is what I was looking for. However I did not want to get people worked up and start a thread where people will not respond if they feel it is getting argumentative. I would love to hear everyone's opinions without them feeling they will be bashed for them. They are opinions and everyone has one and everyone knows the old saying!
I agree with some of your post and also disagree with some of it.
I also like my animals to pay for other animals I want. I started out breeding inexpensive boas and pythons and bred them to pay for other more desirable (in my mind) types. Actually started with garters and waters but you get the point! LOL
I had some good luck along the way but had tons of bad luck too. Breeding live animals has tons of ups and downs, as I am sure you have experienced. Also breeding pythons is my main hobby! I don't live in a expensive house, I don't travel the world, I don't collect nice cars! I breed snakes in my dungeon (thanks for that wonderful outlook Derek)! I do it because I really like it, I've always really liked it! If I put as much time into anything else I probably would be much more well off, but probably not as happy!

I would still like to hear from other people and hear what their thoughts are on the topic. :cheers:

So, what happens when every snake species is 500, 300, 150 a pair?
Do we still have that same want? That urge to "build up" to them?
What's left? What will give us that thrill of "attaining" at the "unattainable"?

This statment doesn't make sense. If they become less expensive does that change the snake in any way. They are still Blackheads right? Gotta tell ya I love my Womas as much now as when they were selling for $7500, so I just don't get your logic on this one. Sounds to me like you enjoy the status of Blackhead more than the snake it self. I don't believe thats the case, but what you wrote above looks that way.

[/QUOTE]

O.K. I didn't say that anywhere in my post and nobody is unworthy to work with them.
Derek that is the overall jist that I got from your post. No you didn't say those exact words, but I feel like you have the attitude that if you want BHPs pay up, if not then they just aren't for you.


O.K. So at one time....you would have spent the money because you paid that much for Ball Pythons? This is what I was talking about. You saved and got the expensive morphs........so, Why? Was it to turn a profit? Was it to enjoy the animal regardless of price?

Derek, you want to know why I bought into Ball Pythons, well I spent almost $2000 grand on my male Pastel breeder in late '04 because as a stay at home Dad I saw it as an oppertunity to turn what I was already doing into a way to make some side cash. Does that take away from all of the years of keeping snake for fun and breeding Coastal Carpets when their babies didn't fetch enough to cover the cost of feeders for the year?

All in all the Ball Python thing has been a disaster financially, but the excitment of hatching out my first super Pastels this summer more than made up that. But at the same time I do resent that drop between what I paid and what I got for my first hatchlings has taught me a lesson and that is to never let the $ solely guide my desicions.



As far what stuff is worth....it's worth what people are will to pay. That said, I've sold every pair I've looked to move. In fact, I've gotten more from some of them than I intended on asking..... in certain instances.

It comes down to what YOU want. If you want the animals.....really want the animals....you'll pay for them.....that's all I was saying in my post.


Derek, I DO WANT a Blackhead or two but not at the current asking price. Read the rest of the posts in this thread and there is a common theme that we are not willing to buy at that price. But if they are flying off the shelf then that is what they are worth and I think that is fair because not everything is affordable to everyone and that's just a fact of life. On the other hand if you can't move them but there is a demand a lower level then it seem artificial to keep asking the higher prices. You don't have to worry about that yet because they are selling for you and Tom.

Kevin, I want to thank you for your more informative answers. That is what I was looking for. However I did not want to get people worked up and start a thread where people will not respond if they feel it is getting argumentative. I would love to hear everyone's opinions without them feeling they will be bashed for them. They are opinions and everyone has one and everyone knows the old saying!
I agree with some of your post and also disagree with some of it.
I also like my animals to pay for other animals I want. I started out breeding inexpensive boas and pythons and bred them to pay for other more desirable (in my mind) types. Actually started with garters and waters but you get the point! LOL
I had some good luck along the way but had tons of bad luck too. Breeding live animals has tons of ups and downs, as I am sure you have experienced. Also breeding pythons is my main hobby! I don't live in a expensive house, I don't travel the world, I don't collect nice cars! I breed snakes in my dungeon (thanks for that wonderful outlook Derek)! I do it because I really like it, I've always really liked it! If I put as much time into anything else I probably would be much more well off, but probably not as happy!

I would still like to hear from other people and hear what their thoughts are on the topic. :cheers:


This is one of the things I hate about the internet and that is you can't get tell the tone that some one is speaking from. I am not trying to start an argument, I am simply answering your question and trying to be respectful at that, and also follow up some of yours and others replies. If you interpret that as confrontational I don't know what to say. The members of this board have pretty thick skin and I doubt our discussion comes even close to scaring others away from voicing their opinions. Maybe not everyone wants to addmit that price is a factor on such a public forum.

I have agreed that BHPs are wonderful snakes, I have stated how I respect you as a breeder, and I totally agree that your snakes are worth what ever you want to sell them for. Almost everyone else has said price is the main factor holding them back and yet you and Derek seem to be focusing on me like I have insulted you. I don't recall saying you where living the lifestyle of the rich and famous. I have been keeping for 20 years and I know how you breed things to get the next thing I am not a newb, thats how I got my Womas this past summer. I have only settled down in the past few years and have had the many up and downs that you mentioned.

I know where you are coming from and I don't see you as an elitist who was handed everything. Too get back on target with your original question price is the only factor for me. Is size a factor for anyone? That might be the only other sticking point aside from price that I could see.

Tom, Derek, good luck with your BHP projects this year.

.Tell us the difference between the Easterns and Westerns...Color? Size?

I just read on Isis reptiles website that the Easterns are bigger.

This statment doesn't make sense. If they become less expensive does that change the snake in any way. They are still Blackheads right?

I wasn't speaking on the animals behalf....I was speaking on the hobbys behalf.
I'll use another example...
Say you work for SETI....It's your life long dream....what happens when Aliens show up on your doorstep? Do you have the same excitement....and if you do.....for how long?


Derek that is the overall jist that I got from your post. No you didn't say those exact words, but I feel like you have the attitude that if you want BHPs pay up, if not then they just aren't for you.

Totally not what I was saying....but, On the other hand....In life, when you want stuff.... you have to pay for it. Doesn't mean they aren't "right for you"....just means you have to save your money.



All in all the Ball Python thing has been a disaster financially, but the excitment of hatching out my first super Pastels this summer more than made up that. But at the same time I do resent that drop between what I paid and what I got for my first hatchlings has taught me a lesson and that is to never let the $ solely guide my desicions.

Correct me if I'm off base here...... you do not want to spend the money on BHPs because you foresee the bottom falling out of them? And,
If money doesn't solely guide the decisions....why don't you have any again?
Either it does or doesn't....you know?
I'm just trying to get where you're coming from. I can understand "holding off" on buying an animal because it's too expensive. I've done it many times.
I've HAD to do it many times. Haha.

Of course, they are expensive...and every time I find myself buying one....I swallow a little hard....but, I want the animal....so I figure it out. Even though, my bank account doesn't like it very much.

I guess if I was looking into them for a profit margin....I'd have the same opinion as you.
And, maybe it's not profit margin with you either but....something has been keeping you from "making the plunge".... and the asking price argument doesn't make sense to me..... given some of your other statements about regret, disaster financially, etc.
It just seems to me that the reason you haven't gotten them.... is that you think your going to waste your money. Would that be safe to say?


You don't have to worry about that yet because they are selling for you and Tom.

That's not exactly the reason.....although, it is some.
Most of it is that Tom and I don't need to sell them. But, I keep my prices in line with a few other factors.....
1. Current asking value of really nice ones, b animals, c animals, etc....
2. What others are asking...because honestly, some of these guys DO try to make a living working with these animals....and I respect that.
3. What I feel they are worth to me. Most important.


Tom, Derek, good luck with your BHP projects this year.

Thank you very much. I can only cross fingers! Haha.

And hey, I'd think that Tom ( and I know I would) would be willing to help you get a pair when you want them. The money isn't what it's about.....
I'm willing to take payments, etc...
I'm not out to make it impossible for those to attain these animals. I want you to have some. I have a perfect pair for you.

Again, let me state for the record....yes, price is the biggest issue. Of course it is. Look at our economy right now. Nobody really has the money for this stuff....yet we still get the animals.
I want a another home and a new Corvette....and price is keeping me from getting that right now. Doesn't mean I wait until the prices come down (I'll be waiting forever)......means, I start saving my money.

Cheers,
D.

Derek it is not so much that I don't want to take the "plunge" it is just that with our family budget I can't justify spending that amount unless I feel confident that I can at least make it back. That hasn't happened with the Ball pythons but in the long run things will even out.

With BHPs I would like work with breeding them, but I don't want the pressure of feeling like I have to breed them to justify the purchase. I feel like that would take away from the fun of keeping them. I know it seems like I am all over the place with this but it is complicated and there is only so much I am willing to share on a public board.

If the time is right and I can spend the money without expectation of any future gain then that is when I would be willing to buy. So when I say I won't let money be a deciding factor, I am really talking about the expectation of making money to justify a purchase. In the future I want to buy things that I like and if I make something off them them that is a bonus.

Right now BHPs are to expensive to fit in that catagory. However, I don't plan on staying at the level I am at now and at some point spending a couple grand on snakes will be like spending a couple hundred now. I am patient and when the time is right I will look to you and Tom for my BHPs because when I do get one I want a NICE one.

Personally its always been a price issue with me.Not saying they are over priced!Im just a lizard guy and thats what the majority gets spent on.
I would love to hear more on the difficulties on breeding them.
Or ticks of the trade from people that have successfully bred them!

1. Current asking value of really nice ones, b animals, c animals, etc....

Derek, just out of curiosity, how do you grade your Black headed pythons? What makes an animal an 'A' or a 'B' or a 'C'? Are there any specific traits you look for or any flaws that would knock an animal down a level? Are we talking pattern? body shape? head shape? amount of black? Do you have any pics of the differences?

Derek it is not so much that I don't want to take the "plunge" it is just that with our family budget I can't justify spending that amount unless I feel confident that I can at least make it back. That hasn't happened with the Ball pythons but in the long run things will even out.

With BHPs I would like work with breeding them, but I don't want the pressure of feeling like I have to breed them to justify the purchase. I feel like that would take away from the fun of keeping them. I know it seems like I am all over the place with this but it is complicated and there is only so much I am willing to share on a public board.

If the time is right and I can spend the money without expectation of any future gain then that is when I would be willing to buy. So when I say I won't let money be a deciding factor, I am really talking about the expectation of making money to justify a purchase. In the future I want to buy things that I like and if I make something off them them that is a bonus.

Right now BHPs are to expensive to fit in that catagory. However, I don't plan on staying at the level I am at now and at some point spending a couple grand on snakes will be like spending a couple hundred now. I am patient and when the time is right I will look to you and Tom for my BHPs because when I do get one I want a NICE one.

O.K. I understand a little better now. And, I know that feeling all too well.
Feeding all this stuff... is more of an expense than buying it sometimes.
If I make enough to keep these animals...I'm happy. But, that can be hit or miss each month when we have a boat load of animals. Haha.
It is for me.

I understand...As I said...I want Boelens. Can't afford them right now. I guess I could spend the next 6 months of bills on them but, That wouldn't be too smart... now would it! Hahaha.
So I save and I save. I really doubt that I'm ever going to make that money back...for obvious reasons! Maybe when I'll get em'.... I'll be lucky and produce them...but, knowing me....I'd just keep em' all anyway!:lol:

Well, Tom and I have some really nice stuff and we'll both be very fair about the cash part of it. Don't worry about that. Like I said....I want you to have some too.
They're too cool to not promote and get people talking about and working with them.

Cheers,
D.

Derek, just out of curiosity, how do you grade your Black headed pythons? What makes an animal an 'A' or a 'B' or a 'C'? Are there any specific traits you look for or any flaws that would knock an animal down a level? Are we talking pattern? body shape? head shape? amount of black? Do you have any pics of the differences?

I guess the easy thing would be posting examples....
A.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/derekroddy/DSC03158.jpg
B.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/derekroddy/DSC03142.jpg
C.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/derekroddy/DSC03118.jpg

I'd say...the cleaner the animal...the higher the price. Regardless of color, etc...
Now, with that said...I've had babies, that I thought were going to be muddy turn into stellar adults.
On the other hand...I've had ripper babies, turn a little muddy...you really don't know what they're going to do until they get a little older. That's why I hang onto them a little longer than most guys. You never know what something will look like at 6 feet.

You get a very good idea what the babies will turn out like by looking at the adults. That...I've found to be consistent.
And really, it comes down to personal preference. And, my preference is ALL OF THEM!!! Hahaha.

Cheers,
D.

They are awesome snakes, defently a fav of mine. I would have some in a heart beat if I could afford them :(. Although I would gladly pay what they are going for because to me they are more worth the money then something that everyone else has like BPs etc..

I guess the easy thing would be posting examples....
A.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/derekroddy/DSC03158.jpg
B.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/derekroddy/DSC03142.jpg
C.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/derekroddy/DSC03118.jpg

I'd say...the cleaner the animal...the higher the price. Regardless of color, etc...
Now, with that said...I've had babies, that I thought were going to be muddy turn into stellar adults.
On the other hand...I've had ripper babies, turn a little muddy...you really don't know what they're going to do until they get a little older. That's why I hang onto them a little longer than most guys. You never know what something will look like at 6 feet.

You get a very good idea what the babies will turn out like by looking at the adults. That...I've found to be consistent.
And really, it comes down to personal preference. And, my preference is ALL OF THEM!!! Hahaha.

Cheers,
D.

Okay, thanks. I see the differences and that makes sense.

Nice pics Tom, Black heads are a must !!!!!

Yessir Derek that's what I want in a Black head.. Keep rockin them sweet pix..:D

Are those three snakes all the same size/age?