Ok,

I know this topic may have been beaten to death, but I still have not found a conclusive answer backed by empirical evidence to the homozygous spider debate.

Some people say that spiders are lethal homozygous. Some people say that spider x spider breedings produce severe wobbling. Contrary to the pinstripe, there also hasn't been a documented case of a spider that will throw 100% spider offspring.

So, is there a definitive answer? Those of you who have or know people that have done spider x spider breedings, what were the results? Perfectly normal clutches with normal offspring? More wobbling than usual? More slugs or eggs going bad? Higher incidence of offspring that hatch but don't survive?

I know that most information will be third-hand or purely speculative, but I'd at least like to know if there is any creedence to the "never do a spider x spider breeding" sentiment. Considering the small clutches that ball pythons have, it would take a large number of spider x spider breedings to see anything of statistical significance, but some information or hypotheses has got to be better than nothing.

Id be very interested in this information as well.

I too have heard that spider x spider is not a good idea. Or even anything that carries the spider gene such as bee x spider. I have no experience with this so I am not in a position to believe or disbelieve the idea. I tend to lean on the side of caution so based on what little information I have gathered I would not breed the one spider I have to another spider type.

But if someone has some real evidence Id love to see it.

This is some of the info i have found on Markus janes website. This does not really explaine it but i think it helps.

http://ballpython.ca/what_get/dominant.html

I'd be interested to know the answer here also. Obviously there's been breedings of spider X spider/spider crosses in the past but I don't know of anyone that has any babies from those clutches who throw 100% spiders.


Oh also, just curious what was determined with the pinstripes? Is there actually a homozygous form of the pinstripe? I haven't heard anything.

Adam, BHB has a pinstripe that reportedly sired 20 clutches ??? None of the babies were normal. Something along those lines.

No clue on the homozygous spider Josh, sorry. I guess if there was one NERD would have found out ages ago, right? How many clutches must Kevin have tried to see if there was a super? I'm pretty sure a few of them! So maybe they're out there somewhere...

I've asked Kevin before if he'd done spider x spider breedings and he said he had -- but that he usually backs up his co-doms with other co-doms so he couldn't be sure if he'd ever produced a "super" (seems like if he had someone would have discovered their NERD spider was a super). He never mentioned any oddities coming from these clutches that would support the obvious lethal or increased spinning if it had happened. But I guess it all depends on whether you think the big breeders give the whole story when these questions are asked or if the skew it to suit their needs.

Other than that I do not know anyone that has done spider to spider.

:yessir:

I have not bred spider to spider yet.
My male spider Sam has sired 4 clutchs so far. Every fetus/hatchling so far has been spider. However, some did not hatch, some hatched and died immediately, some formed only to near-full term and died.
But all were definitely spider patterned.
My theory(opinion) is that IF(note: IF) he is a homozygous spider, it IS a lethal gene. He does not show wobbling, nor did any of the healthy hatchlings wobble. Each baby that hatched and shed, ate with vigor and grew, and were sold.
I will be breeding him to more females to continue to see if he throws normals. But so far he has yet to throw a normal.

NOTE: I AM NOT CLAIMING HE IS A HOMOZYGOUS SPIDER. It's possible, but not a proven thing that a homozygous spider CAN exist. I will keep updating as I breed and get clutchs from him.

I have not bred spider to spider yet.
My male spider Sam has sired 4 clutchs so far. Every fetus/hatchling so far has been spider. However, some did not hatch, some hatched and died immediately, some formed only to near-full term and died.
But all were definitely spider patterned.
My theory(opinion) is that IF(note: IF) he is a homozygous spider, it IS a lethal gene. He does not show wobbling, nor did any of the healthy hatchlings wobble. Each baby that hatched and shed, ate with vigor and grew, and were sold.
I will be breeding him to more females to continue to see if he throws normals. But so far he has yet to throw a normal.

NOTE: I AM NOT CLAIMING HE IS A HOMOZYGOUS SPIDER. It's possible, but not a proven thing that a homozygous spider CAN exist. I will keep updating as I breed and get clutchs from him.

wolfy
it sounds like you've been keeping track of his breeding results thus far.
could you please post your actual results ?
would be an interesting read for everyone here.
do you know if he actually came from a spider x spider breeding ?
that info would also be valuable.
thanx in advance for your response, i think i speak for many when i say that i can't wait to see some numbers,
ck

wolfy
it sounds like you've been keeping track of his breeding results thus far.
could you please post your actual results ?
would be an interesting read for everyone here.
do you know if he actually came from a spider x spider breeding ?
that info would also be valuable.
thanx in advance for your response, i think i speak for many when i say that i can't wait to see some numbers,
ck

Aye!

I'll look up the notes, but I do not know what he was bred from. I will post the actual numbers of eggs etc etc as soon as I have time to hunt down my notes.

The homozygous lethal theory would only account for homozygous spiders (only possible in from spider X spider clutches) not living. If your spider is homozygous then all of his offspring with non spiders would be the normal heterozygous kind of spider and I know of no theory why they would be any more likely to die than any spiders offspring from any spider breeding. If your spider is homozygous it would actually be proof that spider is not a homozygous lethal mutation.

TSK did a spider X spider breedings in 2007 and planed to do several more in 2008 but I haven't heard those results. I found an e-mail where I asked Colette about the 2008 results and she reported "There were eight fertile eggs. Two failed to hatch” and in a follow-up “They were the smallest eggs in the clutch."

Small sample size but interesting that exactly 1/4 (if I'm reading that right, that the small where in the 8 fertile) where small and didn't hatch.

I remember NERD posting on this subject once and indicating they didn't notice any more than usual eggs not hatching from spider X spider but 1/4 wouldn't exactly stand out as unusual. I wonder if somehow a lethal condition could actually cause the eggs to be smaller? Might well just be small eggs that didn't make it and have nothing to do with spider genetics.

Then there are rumors that someone has a proven homozygous spider but for some reason isn’t willing to show it.

Thanks for all the input everyone. There may not be any "definitive answers" yet, but it sounds like wolfyhound may have a homozygous spider and TSK is working on proving or disproving the belief. Definitely on the road to a definitive answer.

Okay, I'm failing to retrieve my records. Stupid site refuses to come up, so I'll "remember" instead, and come back and post any corrections when I can pull up the info.

Sam bred normal = 5 eggs, NO viable babys, 4 near full term spiders, one dud.
Sam + normal = 4 eggs, 3 viable spider babys, 1 near full term spider, no duds.
Sam + normal = 3 eggs, NO viable babys, 1 near full term spider, 2 duds.
Sam + normal = 4 eggs, NO viable babys, 3 near full term spiders, 1 hatched spider died immediately

None of the babys had any VISABLE deformaties, just dead. The viable ones did fine. All other eggs produced at the same time hatched healthy babies, with a few dud eggs(normal amount). So I know it was not the incubator.
Late last season, I had a glitch with temps in the incubator with the last clutch of eggs from my cinnamon, and 4 eggs gave me 3 BADLY kinked and deformed babies, one died, two were euthanized as non-viable babys(pics available of the kinked babies, very graphic, and I will soon be getting the bodies xrayed, for morbid curiosity).

I hope this helps. this is what I remember, and I will get the actual records up eventually. I'll also be letting everyone know what he throws this season.

Clutch 1: 4 eggs, 4 formed spider babies. 1 died in egg. 3 live hatchlings.
Clutch 2: 3 eggs, 2 molded, 1 formed spider baby - died in egg. No live babys.
Clutch 3: 3 eggs, 1 molded, 2 formed spider babies - both died in egg. No live babies.
Clutch 4: 5 eggs, 1 molded, 4 formed spider babies - died in egg.

I was close!! The one clutch was *2* formed spiders, instead of one.
I'm not sure why that EVERY time I go ahead and guess, I then find the info I'm searching for!
Sorry, but I hope this helps the discussion.

At about what point in incubation are the "formed baby spiders"? Is it possible that you could be mistaking an underdeveloped normal pattern for a spider? I would think since the father is healthy and there were viable and living babies that it wouldn't be "lethal" but that doesn't mean someones junk isn't messed up.

Interesting - thanks for sharing!

wolfyhound, were you having such bad luck with other clutches too? Were all those from last season? All but the first clutch died... it can't be that it's a lethal gene as all the spiders would have been hets, not homozygous. Certainly a lot of bad luck.
Hopefully you get better results this season if you've bred him.

I did not have the same issues with eggs from other snakes, in the incubator at the same time.
The babys I saw were from fully formed, no reason that they should not have hatched.. to almost full term. I have had another baby who was not quite full term that died(unknown reasons not related to the spider) and it did not look "spider-like", so I will assume that the babys that looked spider were spiders, rather than unformed patterns.
Again, he could throw normals this year.. I don't know. I just found it interesting, and with the discussions about spiders, homozygous, and lethal genes, I have no issue sharing the info.
My theory is that the lethal gene is making his offspring be unviable somehow.. he should not live if it's lethal.. but since he is living.. maybe it made something else screwy in him, like his sperm have some issue.. ? I don't know, I'm no genetist. It just seems hinky to me to lose so many out of him, without a cooresponding number out of unrelated clutches hatched at the same time.
Again.. good/bad odds? Totally possible. Just sharing the info so far.

WOW that would really discourage me from breeding that spider to much with those odds!!!
It's a shame how cool the spiders are yet they have such issues with them.

Were all these clutches on the spider from different females or were some repeats?

All different females. Yes, I considered not breeding him more... but I'm very curious as to him throwing any normals.

I did not have the same issues with eggs from other snakes, in the incubator at the same time.
The babys I saw were from fully formed, no reason that they should not have hatched.. to almost full term. I have had another baby who was not quite full term that died(unknown reasons not related to the spider) and it did not look "spider-like", so I will assume that the babys that looked spider were spiders, rather than unformed patterns.
Again, he could throw normals this year.. I don't know. I just found it interesting, and with the discussions about spiders, homozygous, and lethal genes, I have no issue sharing the info.
My theory is that the lethal gene is making his offspring be unviable somehow.. he should not live if it's lethal.. but since he is living.. maybe it made something else screwy in him, like his sperm have some issue.. ? I don't know, I'm no genetist. It just seems hinky to me to lose so many out of him, without a cooresponding number out of unrelated clutches hatched at the same time.
Again.. good/bad odds? Totally possible. Just sharing the info so far.

What was his age and the dams' ages at breeding? Was he a young breeder?

I did not have the same issues with eggs from other snakes, in the incubator at the same time.
The babys I saw were from fully formed, no reason that they should not have hatched.. to almost full term. I have had another baby who was not quite full term that died(unknown reasons not related to the spider) and it did not look "spider-like", so I will assume that the babys that looked spider were spiders, rather than unformed patterns.
Again, he could throw normals this year.. I don't know. I just found it interesting, and with the discussions about spiders, homozygous, and lethal genes, I have no issue sharing the info.
My theory is that the lethal gene is making his offspring be unviable somehow.. he should not live if it's lethal.. but since he is living.. maybe it made something else screwy in him, like his sperm have some issue.. ? I don't know, I'm no genetist. It just seems hinky to me to lose so many out of him, without a cooresponding number out of unrelated clutches hatched at the same time.
Again.. good/bad odds? Totally possible. Just sharing the info so far.

wolfy,
thank you for sharing your information.
without knowing what his parents were, we still have nothing to hang a hat on. the "lethal gene" that's being bandied about is the selfsame gene that would have prevented your male's survival, if in fact, he was produced by a spider x spider parenting. his offspring have nothing to do with the "lethal gene" that kevin hypothesized about, as none of those offspring came from a spider x spider breeding. while originally, you'd stated that: "Every fetus/hatchling so far has been spider". you have since mentioned that: "I have had another baby who was not quite full term that died(unknown reasons not related to the spider) and it did not look "spider-like"".
it sounds like you're having great odds, while simultaneously having crappy luck with his babies. i'm sure it's frustrating.
yet, the presence of one non-spider offspring does negate him being a homo "super spider" as the term is generally accepted within the herp community.
we've so much still to learn about the genetics of these buggers.
ck

Were all those clutches in the same year?

The reason that I ask is because one year I breed my cinnamon to three girls and ended up with 13 eggs and out of those eggs I got 13 cinnamons. So the next year I did the same pairings with the same girls and ended up with only 3 cinnamons.
I guess some years you get lucky and other years you don't.