I'm sorry it really hurts me to see the prices I just saw..I mean WTF do people think when they price things like that

Bee males for under 500.00 Bee's it a damn combo and its cheaper than some base mutations.
Lessers for 400.00
Fires for 225.00 males or females
Female spider for 175.00

I mean I guess if your making big money its ok to piss on the little guys I can tell you I was think of spending 5k+ with this breeder this year but now..I'll pay twice that just so I don't have too.

Wow who was it selling them for those prices? Is it a big breeder? I've seen prices close to those here and there (and a couple even lower) but for someone who is producing large quantities to be selling at those prices is just ridiculous.

ive seen some really nasty price drops from breeders who can afford to do it. and it sucks. I have a very small collection. and its.. well .. impossible for me to compete with super low prices because I refuse to sell my animals for less than what I believe them to be worth. this year ive seen $350-$400 albinos... makes it pretty hard for me to sell mine for $500-$600.

unfortunately. theres no real way to stop it. I myself encourage good honest prices when I can. I remember back in .. i wanna say 2006 or 2007 when the spider prices went from 1500-2000 down to 500-600 within a matter of a month or two. I was labeled as "crazy" and "stupid" for giving a breeder I deal with quit a bit $1500 for a female spider. fact is.. is I had the money, the spider was 100% perfect in my eyes. and the breeder deserved the $1500 for her i thought.

$400 for male Lessers is pretty much the going rate right now. The others seem awful low for retail. Who is it?

I think I saw the same prices... Did you see it on the breeders site or ks? If its the same place, my mouth hit the floor too.. $500 for a bee? A year ago they were 1200-1500....

Don't beat around the bush - Name the name of the breeder...

Yes it sucks. One thing I did this year was not breed some of the lower end stuff. I didn't breed my regular albino or hets at all. I moved most of my single gene breeder males last year so I was done with that. What that did, was save me money in up keep along with no further flooding of the market, with these more common mutation.

Next year I'll be doing the same thing. Works out for everyone. Another thing that kills the market is when these mega breeders continue to pump out the more common stuff just in higher n' higher quantity.

Another thing that kills the market is when these mega breeders continue to pump out the more common stuff just in higher n' higher quantity.

But no one wants to talk about the mass producers...Hell - On the majority of the boards - Their treated as gods when in fact they've ruined this market...

It's not just mass producers, there's plenty of smaller guys that underprice their snakes to move them faster so they can count them dollars up faster.

I'd rather pay more to get quality, and not encourage lower and lower prices.

It's not just mass producers, there's plenty of smaller guys that underprice their snakes to move them faster so they can count them dollars up faster.

I'd rather pay more to get quality, and not encourage lower and lower prices.

True but the little guy only has a few animals to move...The mass producer(s) has what - 1000 clutches? 30,000 babies...Big difference...

whose gonna wanna buy a spider or pastel when you can buy a bee for a couple hundred more? This stuff makes me wanna cry when I have thousands INVESTED in my snakes and have yet to make a dime. At this rate its going to take me 10 yrs to make back what I've put in... Sweeeeeeet.

whose gonna wanna buy a spider or pastel when you can buy a bee for a couple hundred more? This stuff makes me wanna cry when I have thousands INVESTED in my snakes and have yet to make a dime. At this rate its going to take me 10 yrs to make back what I've put in... Sweeeeeeet.

Join the club :) No seriously, I'm working on paying off a snake mortgage. AT least it's a 15yr fixed rate and to think I almost got the 30yr for a little cheaper payment..:cheers:

I prefer to pay the 3% to do a balance transfer to the other CC and get 0% for 8 months... then in 8months... transfer it back. Either way... its gotten ridiculous. I bought my bee in January for 1100$... not 6 months later and its down to 500??? I guess if it looks like crap you should sell it for 500 bc its only going to make crap in the future. Anyone who thinks its a deal and buys an ugly browned out bee is going to regret it when they get their first clutch.

Hopefully by the time I get the triple and quad het bp's they will be still more than quad het cornsnakes...

Name who it is...

Who is selling $500 bees? That makes me so mad!

Yes it sucks. One thing I did this year was not breed some of the lower end stuff. I didn't breed my regular albino or hets at all. I moved most of my single gene breeder males last year so I was done with that. What that did, was save me money in up keep along with no further flooding of the market, with these more common mutation.

Next year I'll be doing the same thing. Works out for everyone. Another thing that kills the market is when these mega breeders continue to pump out the more common stuff just in higher n' higher quantity.

Question is... Are the expensive morphs moving at a pace that makes up for the volume the cheapers ones produce?

I was hesitant to name the breeder because I know they frequent here. But since everyone seems so strongly about it.. These prices are animals that are from sale from Brock Wagner.

I was hesitant to name the breeder because I know they frequent here. But since everyone seems so strongly about it.. These prices are animals that are from sale from Brock Wagner.

Don't be hesitant they are his prices to stand behind not yours...

Thanks Jeff..

JnJ reptile has ads on KS and Fauna for prices like these

JnJ reptile has ads on KS and Fauna for prices like these

Wow do they now :dunno: I had no clue.. from a flipper like JnJ I would expect those prices. But not someone that is as heavily vest in the market.

JnJ reptile has ads on KS and Fauna for prices like these

That is an interesting observation.

I moved it to the market section and added the addition onto the title.

Does this mean that while it takes me another year before I'm able produce, the Bees that I was shooting for are going to be worth shat when they hatch? I mean I can expect gradual price drops annually, but by almost 50% is just wrong!

It makes me wonder why I've been panicking, losing sleep, and putting in big efforts over the recent legislation fights...is it really just to protect those that do this sort of thing, and do this for a living? I don't need to be breeding snakes. Those that do it for a living had better think long and hard about whether crashing the market will eventually make guys like me simply not give a crap anymore. :mad:

Are there any links to prove these prices?

he's not selling bees under $500

http://www.brockwagnerreptiles.com/snakesforsale.cfm

550 plus shipping

Really piss and moan folks?! Last month at the San Diego Super show the prices on Brock's site were all over the tables of every vendor and these animals were often repacked and headed back home with those that produced them. Like it or not it is the law of supply and demand and as of now the supply outweighs the demand on these lower end mass produced animals. Bashing someone who works very hard to produce new animals for us all to enjoy doesn't change that fact. Guys like Brock who do this as a business are not to blame for this. Rest assured if he could get $500.00 on a pastel or $5000.00 on a bee he would LOVE too but he cannot and sad to say neither can we.

$175 for female pastels? I just bought one 3 months ago for $300...although she is exceptionally beautiful. Tell me these prices are a joke?

Last month at the San Diego Super show the prices on Brock's site were all over the tables of every vendor and these animals were often repacked and headed back home with those that produced them.

So is it the economy then? Is that what you're saying? Then why does every breeder interviewed on RR say "I'm selling as many animals as I always have...maybe not as fast, but they sell." And bigger breeders have noted that overseas sales are strong. I'm not buying it... :nono:

Like it or not it is the law of supply and demand and as of now the supply outweighs the demand on these lower end mass produced animals.

Bingo...Give that man a cigar...It's the mass producers that have ruined the market...

Sales are strong indeed for anything under $500.00 this year and yes they sell and sell well at that. it;s really just supply and demand. Do you honestly think someone like Brock would undersell himself?! Would that be fun for him to short change himself? Of course not. Again prices are what they are NOT what you think they should be. If his prices are too low then everything he has should vanish in no time right? Well I am willing to bet even money those animals listed at fair and current value are still sitting in Brock's house waiting for a new home. Sour truth sucks sad to say but it just does not change the facts at hand.

If his prices are too low then everything he has should vanish in no time right?

Agreed. At most there are four of any one animal on that list. It's not like he's trying to "hit the gas", for anyone who remembers that line of BS. If the prices are too low, then they'll sell quickly, and that will be the end of it. I know I've priced things too low before and they've sold right away. When I produced some more I raised the price accordingly. Four individual snakes are a drop in the bucket compared to the number of some of those morphs that are going to be produced this year, there's no reason that the sale of four animals should set the price for the other dozens or hundreds that are produced.

Yes it sucks. One thing I did this year was not breed some of the lower end stuff. I didn't breed my regular albino or hets at all. I moved most of my single gene breeder males last year so I was done with that. What that did, was save me money in up keep along with no further flooding of the market, with these more common mutation.

Next year I'll be doing the same thing. Works out for everyone. Another thing that kills the market is when these mega breeders continue to pump out the more common stuff just in higher n' higher quantity.

This is my personal philosophy with ball pythons. I'm not going to breed anything just to produce 'more' of something. I don't have a single normal female in my collection, and unless I get a kickass male co-dom and think the demand is high for the morph, it's going to stay that way. Every breeding I have planned for this year will hopefully produce doubles or triples (actually, I do have an albino to het albino, but hopefully the popularity of albinos will cross over to novice/non-breeding keepers). I only have so much space, and I only have so much money, so what I do have is going to be invested into fewer animals of the highest quality I can find. I'm not going to do a bee x normal breeding, let alone something like a cinny x normal breeding. Partially because the excitement of creating something new isn't there, but also because I know the market is overwhelmed with them.

Hopefully we will begin to see more pet owners buying their one spider, or one albino, or one bumblebee to keep as a prized pet. That will keep demand for these more common morphs up, and will make breeding them more worthwhile. Until then, if you don't want to lose your shirt, I think you can go for mass production (which will ultimately lead to a few winners and a LOT of losers) or shoot for the new stuff.

Have anybody tried to sell anything lately?I mean cars motorcycles I mean anything? people are hurting including myself!!! this recesion is DEEP! Its got to be frustrating to go to a show & spend all day & not sell anything.the prices are the tough reality of this piss poor economy.On a good note when or if it turns around the inflation will go though the roof & Bee's will be worth $1000 if they keep printing all that money!!;)

I sold 5 snakes all for a reasonable price in 5 days. Given they were all older and ready to breed this yr which makes them go much quicker it's just tough for the people getting into the business. You have to spend a real pretty penny to get a solid 08-09 female but by the time shes ready to breed what do you have to look forward too? maybe 1-2 morphs worth 1k each but you paid 5-6k for your female? You're looking at multiple years of breeding to make back your initial investment let alone a profit. I know over the 3 years Ive been picking up snakes, racks, and other stuff needed I easily have 30k invested. I do plan on shooting for the higher end morphs to help make back some of my money quicker but its going to be a good 4-5years before I make back that 30k if I'm lucky.

It is supply and demand but I spend 2-300 more per snake on quality with the idea of quality babies in mind. If you got some good looking adults the babies should sell themselves. I will always pay more money for the better looking snake and I know Im not the only one out their with the same mentality.

Have anybody tried to sell anything lately?I mean cars motorcycles I mean anything? people are hurting including myself!!! this recesion is DEEP! Its got to be frustrating to go to a show & spend all day & not sell anything.the prices are the tough reality of this piss poor economy.On a good note when or if it turns around the inflation will go though the roof & Bee's will be worth $1000 if they keep printing all that money!!;)

Yep, I've sold all kinds of things this year. I sold a motorcycle, truck and I'm selling stuff on ebay. Getting just as much as I should be and selling pretty fast. :dunno:

Also, I noticed '08 bees selling for $750 last year. Am I the only one that noticed? :dunno: Do I hate seeing bees this low? Hell yeah. What kind of bees are we talking about? Are we talking about a graded price here? Are they crappy looking bees? If they're high quality then the price should be higher.

There is no doubt mass producers are sinking the ship out of greed!!!:machinegun:

I guess I have bad luck I could'nt sell a golden turd LOL! Im planning on keeping most of my offspring anyway till the market gets better or I get the right price I want Im not going to give it away.

Wow another hate Brock thread or post. I don't think I can go two weeks without someone taking a potshot at me. Oh the drama! It doesn't take to long to figure out why this thread was started when one looks at who are Ed the Frog's close friends! This has 8 ball screaming all over it!

First I didn't price my bee's under $500 even though the Frog accused me of it. I have two males and I put them up there for $550 plus shipping. Last year they were selling all over the place at $700 to $750. I have seen LemonBlasts on KS for $750 and I know that bee's are selling for $500 at shows and on the net so I thought that was the price. I guess I was wrong. Please tell me what are bee's going for right now I would like to know?

Next Lessers at $400 for males and $450 for females. I don't need to justify this price as I just saw several other breeders with the same prices on KS. Oh and one guy is selling Butters for $350 each. I think IAN and Outback is even cheaper than me on KS. I understand the Frog needs to make me look bad but these are high prices compared to what they are really selling for!

Next Fires. 8 Months ago at the NARBC show in Texas Bob Clark and Mike Willibanks brought 30 Fires to the show and put them on on the table for $500 a pair. So is my $450 a pair price so out of line? I guess so if you are me right Frog?

Next Spiders and Pastels. I will be honest I have no idea what they are worth. I wish I did. I know what they are going for wholesale and it doesn't get over $100 each on them so I thought I was ok.

In all honesty the list was thrown up for some good customers who buy from me all the time and they wanted to see what I had. I strive to produce high end high quality snakes and that is what I love doing. I don't follow what the lower end stuff is priced at I guess I should so I don't offend the Frog.

I can't wait for Daytona I am sure you won't see any of these prices are lower on tables there! Sorry I am not trying to come across like a **** except to the Frog and his friends.


Thanks to all who stuck up for me and tried to dissuade the onslaught while I was at work! You didn't have to I am used to it by now!

Brock

Wow another hate Brock thread or post. I don't think I can go two weeks without someone taking a potshot at me. Oh the drama! It doesn't take to long to figure out why this thread was started when one looks at who are Ed the Frog's close friends! This has 8 ball screaming all over it!

First I didn't price my bee's under $500 even though the Frog accused me of it. I have two males and I put them up there for $550 plus shipping. Last year they were selling all over the place at $700 to $750. I have seen LemonBlasts on KS for $750 and I know that bee's are selling for $500 at shows and on the net so I thought that was the price. I guess I was wrong. Please tell me what are bee's going for right now I would like to know?

Next Lessers at $400 for males and $450 for females. I don't need to justify this price as I just saw several other breeders with the same prices on KS. Oh and one guy is selling Butters for $350 each. I think IAN and Outback is even cheaper than me on KS. I understand the Frog needs to make me look bad but these are high prices compared to what they are really selling for!

Next Fires. 8 Months ago at the NARBC show in Texas Bob Clark and Mike Willibanks brought 30 Fires to the show and put them on on the table for $500 a pair. So is my $450 a pair price so out of line? I guess so if you are me right Frog?

Next Spiders and Pastels. I will be honest I have no idea what they are worth. I wish I did. I know what they are going for wholesale and it doesn't get over $100 each on them so I thought I was ok.

In all honesty the list was thrown up for some good customers who buy from me all the time and they wanted to see what I had. I strive to produce high end high quality snakes and that is what I love doing. I don't follow what the lower end stuff is priced at I guess I should so I don't offend the Frog.

I can't wait for Daytona I am sure you won't see any of these prices are lower on tables there! Sorry I am not trying to come across like a **** except to the Frog and his friends.


Thanks to all who stuck up for me and tried to dissuade the onslaught while I was at work! You didn't have to I am used to it by now!

Brock

I still love ya Brock...:cheers:

Thanks BT! I love you to! I think I need to catch a frog and put him in a bucket like I did when I was a kid!

Brock

I have no issues with your pricing Brock as I know you produce quality snakes. Do I wish BB's were demanding more than 550$... obviously, what breeder doesnt? Prices are going to drop regardless every year bc more people are producing but I dont see you sticking your tripple bangers to normals just so you have snakes to sell. Regardless... I cant wait to check out your table in Daytona!

Thanks BT! I love you to! I think I need to catch a frog and put him in a bucket like I did when I was a kid!

Brock

Hell - Your bashing was only 3 pages...I woke up to 7 pages worth of being called a shit headed liar by some chump I don't even know...LOL...I'm still trying to figure out what the hell the guy is talking about...Good stuff huh...LOL

My question is... If the low end stuff is being killed by this market... How is the high end doing? Is it even worth it to produce triple bangers if nobody is buying? Or is it all hype that they are selling?

Just some thoughts...

What really worries someone like me is if Brock is having a hard time selling these with his NAME. How hard is it going to be for somone like me. :cool:

What really worries someone like me is if Brock is having a hard time selling these with his NAME. How hard is it going to be for somone like me. :cool:


what I gather from his posts is the fact that they are selling... just at those prices...

Brock like I told you last night on the phone had this been personally directed at you I would have posted your name in the first post. As it wasn't I was merely using prices I'd seen for examples of the state of the market. I'm not one to start anything I got no dog in this race so to speak.

I was merely starting a conversation as to the state of the current market and was shocked.

As for having 8Ball all over it. I'll say again what I said last night.. No other breeder had anything to do with my post. I was simply off put by prices. and not just yours but I've since seen the prices you mentioned on KS.

Like I told you on the phone I have no right to tell anyone what to price or sale their animals at and that's not what I was doing.

If those are what they sale for so be it.. But I can piss and moan cause prices are to high just like I can that they are to low it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Again it wasn't personal I didn't post this to call you out or start anything. But there is more than one post in this thread wanting to know who had those prices.. So I simply told them. nothing more.

To be brutally honest, Brocks prices are a bit higher than what they can be bought for out there right now. Bees can be had for less than what Brock is offering them for and his lesser and pastel prices are not far from the norm nowadays. I don't think he should be bashed since his prices are reality in this market today. Look around and you will see prices lower than his.

Look this thread is way out of proportion..As what Brock said was he just threw a price lise of some of what he has available at this moment...I did call him and talk to him about his pricing...He didnt say he was having a hard time selling it...Look at the quanties that he has listed next to his prices..They are 1's and 2's....no real numbers there to be worried about...What Brock shoots for is upper end morphs and thats what he seams to pay attention too...All of us that are still only producing single dom/codoms or even ressisive's..do want our price point snakes still to be worth something but as the number of smaller lower end breeders buy into Ball pythons and start Breeding the price comes down as there is a "s" load of them available...

There is a Bush league Breeder here on these fourms and in the classified's right now posting what I feel is selling morphs at less than market prices..and I have a problem with it..But what can you do there is no Ball police..where do you go and find the current pricing as well...There is no Blue book for Ball pythons...But when you are sell 100% het's for the price of a normal then just sell them as normals...I wont mention his name. but you can easily find out whom Im taking about...

Damn it Larry I told you those LA hets were worth more!!! you could atleast get 75$ for one of those. Paaaaaaaaaah

My question is... If the low end stuff is being killed by this market... How is the high end doing? Is it even worth it to produce triple bangers if nobody is buying? Or is it all hype that they are selling?

Just some thoughts...

Well, I can tell you I just dropped a **** load of loan money on a few high end combos with out bitching about price or endless negotiating and last year I did the same. Also, I know at least two others about to do the same thing. So I would say that the high end stuff is doing pretty well. It just takes a bit longer to move in some cases
As long as breeders stick to their prices I think prices would drop slower because I think the more money you spend on your breeders the less your gonna let some guy haggle you down on your babies. And I believe that starts a positive cycle. Some times I feel like I'm in Mexico when I'm at a reptile show, there are definitely situations where haggling or negotiating are appropriate but its like everyone has just accepted that this is the way you buy/sell in this biz all the time.

Well, I can tell you I just dropped a **** load of loan money on a few high end combos with out bitching about price or endless negotiating and last year I did the same. Also, I know at least two others about to do the same thing. So I would say that the high end stuff is doing pretty well. It just takes a bit longer to move in some cases
As long as breeders stick to their prices I think prices would drop slower because I think the more money you spend on your breeders the less your gonna let some guy haggle you down on your babies. And I believe that starts a positive cycle. Some times I feel like I'm in Mexico when I'm at a reptile show, there are definitely situations where haggling or negotiating are appropriate but its like everyone has just accepted that this is the way you buy/sell in this biz all the time.


Well then thats great to hear! Thank you for the feedback.

Hell - Your bashing was only 3 pages...I woke up to 7 pages worth of being called a shit headed liar by some chump I don't even know...LOL...I'm still trying to figure out what the hell the guy is talking about...Good stuff huh...LOL

:lmao:

There seem to always be these same threads every year about pricing and it always seems to revolve around Ball Pythons. You don't find many Blackhead, Woma, Retic, Blood, Scrub,.....etc market threads. Ball Pythons are VERY easy to breed, small, docile, and colorfull which means a lot of people are going to be successfull and motivated to breed them. That only becomes a problem when you factor in the shear numbers of small time breeders and then mix that with the MASS PRODUCERS still pumping out the common stuff in the thousands each.

The small time breeder may produce a couple Lessers for example, and each one of those lessers is a little treasure to that small time breeder. Small time breeders are personally attached to the hatchlings they produce and they have a sentimental value that has to be factored in when deciding a price to sell off any non-keepers.

For mass producers it is about numbers and hatchlings are looked at as inventory. It's just business for them, and price is simply based on what level they will sell steadily or quickly. The individual animals have no intrinsic value and as such price is simply a cold fact of supply and demand. As long as people buy from mass producers at any level there will always be an incentive to keep producing copious amounts of BPs.

It is hard when as a hobbiest you value your animals more than the factory guys are pricing theirs, but that is the market right now. Two levels of competing breeders......one group believes in smalller better........ the other believes in bigger more. The problem is that the average BP newb doesn't know enough about them to look for selectively bred animals and they will usually let price and name recognition determine who they buy from. As hobbiest I believe we have to just continue to stress the advantages of buying from someone with a small select collection when at shows and in the language of our ads. It is important to try and distinguish ourselves from the factory breeders, and to take that message beyond the bush league and really SELL the advantages of supporting the hobbiest breeders that ARE the back bone of the hobby.

As for this thread being addressed towards Brock, I find that laughable since most of his lower end stuff is the result of his attempts at his bazillion gene combos!!! Thats good breeding......progression.

Another thing to factor in is the crappy economy. Some of us are feeling it worse than others and that will affect pricing and buying. If someone gets laid off or their hours get cut, then they are going to drop their prices to a level to get the stuff to sell and put food on the table. That type of senario shouldn't kill the market and we shouldn't be so quick to judge because despite the green shoots the media has been blowing up our skirts...things are going to get worse on the economic front and at some point that will affect the market. Also as people are tightening their budgets, they will be less likely to spend on snakes or other discresionary items. At some point prices may have to take a dive just to move anything period, much like electronic stores and others have had to resort to drastic price cuts just to get people in the door. I hope we don't have to resort to that, but I to think overall people are going to have to be a lot more flexible when it comes to pricing this year more so than in years past. Large supply, mass market competition, and a weak economy should make for an interesting year.

Alright, I'll step down from my soapbox now........:lmao:

Thats a great post right up there....

I'll speak for myself when I say I have a tough time pricing animals this time of year. I know what they sold for last year, and I can guess where I think they'll be this year, but it is tough to know how many will be available, demand, etc.

As long as the prices are in the ballpark I don't see it as an issue, especially when there are only a couple available from the breeder.

I may be biased though as Brock has always been fair to me. I've traded with him, sold to him and purchased from him, no problems whatsoever.

There seem to always be these same threads every year about pricing and it always seems to revolve around Ball Pythons. You don't find many Blackhead, Woma, Retic, Blood, Scrub,.....etc market threads. Ball Pythons are VERY easy to breed, small, docile, and colorfull which means a lot of people are going to be successfull and motivated to breed them. That only becomes a problem when you factor in the shear numbers of small time breeders and then mix that with the MASS PRODUCERS still pumping out the common stuff in the thousands each.

The small time breeder may produce a couple Lessers for example, and each one of those lessers is a little treasure to that small time breeder. Small time breeders are personally attached to the hatchlings they produce and they have a sentimental value that has to be factored in when deciding a price to sell off any non-keepers.

For mass producers it is about numbers and hatchlings are looked at as inventory. It's just business for them, and price is simply based on what level they will sell steadily or quickly. The individual animals have no intrinsic value and as such price is simply a cold fact of supply and demand. As long as people buy from mass producers at any level there will always be an incentive to keep producing copious amounts of BPs.

It is hard when as a hobbiest you value your animals more than the factory guys are pricing theirs, but that is the market right now. Two levels of competing breeders......one group believes in smalller better........ the other believes in bigger more. The problem is that the average BP newb doesn't know enough about them to look for selectively bred animals and they will usually let price and name recognition determine who they buy from. As hobbiest I believe we have to just continue to stress the advantages of buying from someone with a small select collection when at shows and in the language of our ads. It is important to try and distinguish ourselves from the factory breeders, and to take that message beyond the bush league and really SELL the advantages of supporting the hobbiest breeders that ARE the back bone of the hobby.
Great post!!

There seem to always be these same threads every year about pricing and it always seems to revolve around Ball Pythons. You don't find many Blackhead, Woma, Retic, Blood, Scrub,.....etc market threads. Ball Pythons are VERY easy to breed, small, docile, and colorfull which means a lot of people are going to be successfull and motivated to breed them. That only becomes a problem when you factor in the shear numbers of small time breeders and then mix that with the MASS PRODUCERS still pumping out the common stuff in the thousands each.

The small time breeder may produce a couple Lessers for example, and each one of those lessers is a little treasure to that small time breeder. Small time breeders are personally attached to the hatchlings they produce and they have a sentimental value that has to be factored in when deciding a price to sell off any non-keepers.

For mass producers it is about numbers and hatchlings are looked at as inventory. It's just business for them, and price is simply based on what level they will sell steadily or quickly. The individual animals have no intrinsic value and as such price is simply a cold fact of supply and demand. As long as people buy from mass producers at any level there will always be an incentive to keep producing copious amounts of BPs.

It is hard when as a hobbiest you value your animals more than the factory guys are pricing theirs, but that is the market right now. Two levels of competing breeders......one group believes in smalller better........ the other believes in bigger more. The problem is that the average BP newb doesn't know enough about them to look for selectively bred animals and they will usually let price and name recognition determine who they buy from. As hobbiest I believe we have to just continue to stress the advantages of buying from someone with a small select collection when at shows and in the language of our ads. It is important to try and distinguish ourselves from the factory breeders, and to take that message beyond the bush league and really SELL the advantages of supporting the hobbiest breeders that ARE the back bone of the hobby.

As for this thread being addressed towards Brock, I find that laughable since most of his lower end stuff is the result of his attempts at his bazillion gene combos!!! Thats good breeding......progression.

Another thing to factor in is the crappy economy. Some of us are feeling it worse than others and that will affect pricing and buying. If someone gets laid off or their hours get cut, then they are going to drop their prices to a level to get the stuff to sell and put food on the table. That type of scenario shouldn't kill the market and we shouldn't be so quick to judge because despite the green shoots the media has been blowing up our skirts...things are going to get worse on the economic front and at some point that will affect the market. Also as people are tightening their budgets, they will be less likely to spend on snakes or other discretionary items. At some point prices may have to take a dive just to move anything period, much like electronic stores and others have had to resort to drastic price cuts just to get people in the door. I hope we don't have to resort to that, but I to think overall people are going to have to be a lot more flexible when it comes to pricing this year more so than in years past. Large supply, mass market competition, and a weak economy should make for an interesting year.

Alright, I'll step down from my soapbox now........:lmao:

I believe your right..:cheers:

I can say this I wish everything went up in price. I want everyone out there to make money and succeed! Like I tell my customers all the time if you breed it and make good looking babies you are going to sell them and get your money back and then some. The reward comes from being successful and being able to look back and say I did that!

The BLBC is my home and I just don't take being called out on it for really nothing to lightly!

Thanks everyone who has supported me and stuck up for me in this thread! You guys rock! JoshM you know you are my boy!

Brock

Agreed. At most there are four of any one animal on that list. It's not like he's trying to "hit the gas", for anyone who remembers that line of BS. If the prices are too low, then they'll sell quickly, and that will be the end of it. I know I've priced things too low before and they've sold right away. When I produced some more I raised the price accordingly. Four individual snakes are a drop in the bucket compared to the number of some of those morphs that are going to be produced this year, there's no reason that the sale of four animals should set the price for the other dozens or hundreds that are produced.

I wish it were true, but if one person advertises say a spider for $200 just that one ad will cause people to panic and lower their prices. It's happened on almost every morph.

I can say this I wish everything went up in price. I want everyone out there to make money and succeed! Like I tell my customers all the time if you breed it and make good looking babies you are going to sell them and get your money back and then some. The reward comes from being successful and being able to look back and say I did that!

The BLBC is my home and I just don't take being called out on it for really nothing to lightly!

Thanks everyone who has supported me and stuck up for me in this thread! You guys rock! JoshM you know you are my boy!

Brock

Eh, don't sweat it Brock. Your price isn't that off from last years price I seen bees selling for. Besides who's going to get the drama queen all wound up if you leave. :lmao:

I dont' sweat the small stuff anymore Bill! There is always going to be haters they need me to survive! He brought drama that is what the Frog wanted!

Brock

I have no 'loyalties' per se, and I'm so green in this community that I stand out like a sore thumb. But my opinions are being formulated and sculpted daily by not only how breeders come across on RR, but also through message boards, blogs, and shows. Maybe my newbie state is an advantage? At least it starts me off on neutral ground in this highly-dramatized hobby!

That said, in my frustration with the OP's revelation of $550 for BB's, I set out to see what '09 BB's were selling for around KS and breeder's websites (I've probably bookmarked 400 breeder's websites over the last year). Unless I missed it in plain site, I did not see any in the $600 or lower range. What I did see was most BB's priced around $750-$800, with some even as high as $1100. This is pretty close to what I saw at last year's Tinley show. Please correct me if I'm wrong with links.

Brock, I have NO bones to pick with you. Hell, I'm a nobody, which is probably why no one bothered to address my posts in this thread. But I have to wonder why you really came to that price point? You've been in BP's long enough to have your thumb on the industry's pulse, at least that's how you came across on your RR interview just last May (which I just listened to again). I just want to believe that maybe it was a mistake in publicly posting pricing for loyal customers, and not trying to do what the WalMart's of the industry do to make a quick buck. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in this case though...and I'm going to keep a closer eye on the market from now on. Guys just starting out like I am are genuinely concerned when we see major price shifts.

I myself started to late I should have started 5 years ago & made some good money,this economy is killing everything the prices will go lower as the market floods with common morphs.I started because I like all the combos that are being produced & the BP's grew on me.Brock has some killer stuff & need to make money so go for it Brock.

as some of you know, im not much of a ball guy...why, becuase of the cost....ball python prices are so up and down its worse then the stock market sometimes...lol. i was just talking with a breeder, and he was telling me about the high cost of woma pythons $1000 each easy, now i see them sometimes under $300. I like the ball morphs but im not getting into them for the money, which is what i see on alot of these type of post. I think every reptile i have, i have it because i like working with them, its not about a "get rich quick" breeding. Bees are sick looking, i would get one even when it came time to sell its babies and they resaled for only $50. Its not about the money, its about the luv of doing something i like and being able to have someone share that luv for something i produced...... i dont think any reptile should be looked at like your going to get rich by buying it and breeding it because every year as more people think like that and breed more, the price goes down everytime. Im waiting untell the price is low and getting it because i like how they look....my 2cents

Good post there LP Reptiles.

For me I am not a breeder but I am trying to get into it a bit by buying myself some base morph animals this year and hopefully a recessive het pair. As for the price thing... I hate to say it but I think the reptile community has brought it upon itself from two reasons

1) Devaluation of male morphs
2) Devaluation of normal females

There are posts complaining about the "mass producers" flooding the market. That is capitalism right there. If we were big corporations and we sold our product to someone and went into an agreement that they would only produce so many of them and only sell them for a certain price we'd be in serious trouble for price fixing.

Morphs probably have a price floor that they are going to all reach and the incomplete dominant / dominant traits (pastel, mojave, pinstripe, lesser, butter...) wlll all get there eventually just because of the fact that you can make them without much investment.

Unless morph ball pythons are to stay in the gentleman's club of the big breeder/collector then it is what it is. No point in griping about it.

Pretty soon these big breeders are going to wonder why they're not making any money. Because they mass produced everything.

I am just curious as to what happened between the point where this post was started and the point where Brock Wagners name as mentioned? I was a huge fan of this forum when it first started, I was able to go to the Market/Business Talk section and the Industry watchdog section and watch and pitch on on the talk about how this industry is taking a nose dive and how people are crashing the market with price of Ball Pythons, but it has come to the point to where we are holding people outside BLBC to different standards than we are the people inside BLBC. I have purchased from BT as well as Larry, and never had any problem with either one, but when we say we hate market crashers, how can we turn around when one of our own does it "well its the big breeders fault for flooding the market"? I see and know people that easily get 750 to 800 on Bumblebees without them being on the market for long at all, and these are small breeders, so how it is that his price were driving down by the big breeders? I don't know, I have nothing against anyone here, but I hate seeing the market headed the direction its heading, and don't think its ever going to get any better unless we stop turning our head when one of our own does it and instead hold him to the same standards we hold everyone else. Maybe its that some of us are getting these deals under the table causing us to turn our heads when those deals are posted worldwide for anyone?

I just went over and looked at my normal price guide for these type of things and the first two adds I pulled up with bumblebees in them were for $750 and $800 shipped, now I am not up on the market by any means so I don't know if these have been listed for the past 3 months....

Right or wrong the price is $200 off from what I am looking at.

I've got no dog in this fight other than me just being here breeding snakes, Brock and everyone else is free to sell at their own price...but your question is does he get a pass from me? Short answer is no I remember things like this when I go to add to the collection. Is it worth a fight and all the drama that surrounds the BP world? Short answer, not to me.

Prototype..You must have blinders on...or are only talking to friends as I have seen Bumble Bees for less than $750 at local shows...If a breeder has a morph for less than what you feel is market price what is your first reaction...Mine is either the snake is sick,not feeding,or ugly...I have never bought anything from Brock..And might never either. He stated he put up the list at the request from a few good customers of his...on his own site not on KS or even here matter of fact. I feel you need to look before you speak ..As there are BIG Breeders that do sell for less... When and if you go to Daytona you'll see where pricing is at.(hint check out pricing Friday during setup or at the Hilton on the patio at night)..Maybe Bees are only $500 now...How many people do you think are producing them now..Many are.. so what happens is the price drops..I dont like it but it happens...Hell I wouldnt pay more than that for a Bee now..and i dont even own a Bee. just my 2 cents..

Prototype..You must have blinders on...or are only talking to friends as I have seen Bumble Bees for less than $750 at local shows...If a breeder has a morph for less than what you feel is market price what is your first reaction...Mine is either the snake is sick,not feeding,or ugly...I have never bought anything from Brock..And might never either. He stated he put up the list at the request from a few good customers of his...on his own site not on KS or even here matter of fact. I feel you need to look before you speak ..As there are BIG Breeders that do sell for less... When and if you go to Daytona you'll see where pricing is at.(hint check out pricing Friday during setup or at the Hilton on the patio at night)..Maybe Bees are only $500 now...How many people do you think are producing them now..Many are.. so what happens is the price drops..I dont like it but it happens...Hell I wouldnt pay more than that for a Bee now..and i dont even own a Bee. just my 2 cents..

Pricing is always cheaper at shows, whats your point? I haven't seen Bees for 550 at any shows, and if I did see them like you said, I would think they are either sick, not eating, etc, because the market (internet) price is 700 to 800 for the most part and they ARE selling, so why put them 200 below market? No blinders here, just compare apples to apples, not internet prices to show prices, everyone marks their stuff down a little for shows, I doubt 200 buck though!

The only thing I see is that...generally the listed classified prices aren't usually the paid prices... there are backdoor deals that go on in private all the time, some at a VERY reduced price from the list pricing. So really I'm sure if these bees that are listed at $6-800 likely are NOT selling for that publicly, but as best offer in private. I'm not saying ALL animals sell like this, but I know many do.

If it's an animal that I want, I don't even expect a discount, but many times buying animals have been offered a cheaper price...

The only thing I see is that...generally the listed classified prices aren't usually the paid prices... there are backdoor deals that go on in private all the time, some at a VERY reduced price from the list pricing. So really I'm sure if these bees that are listed at $6-800 likely are NOT selling for that publicly, but as best offer in private. I'm not saying ALL animals sell like this, but I know many do.

If it's an animal that I want, I don't even expect a discount, but many times buying animals have been offered a cheaper price...

I understand that, it happens, nothing you can do about that, its advertising that price, and making other people who see your price expect that price from someone else is where I have the problem.

I am just curious as to what happened between the point where this post was started and the point where Brock Wagners name as mentioned? I was a huge fan of this forum when it first started, I was able to go to the Market/Business Talk section and the Industry watchdog section and watch and pitch on on the talk about how this industry is taking a nose dive and how people are crashing the market with price of Ball Pythons, but it has come to the point to where we are holding people outside BLBC to different standards than we are the people inside BLBC. I have purchased from BT as well as Larry, and never had any problem with either one, but when we say we hate market crashers, how can we turn around when one of our own does it "well its the big breeders fault for flooding the market"? I see and know people that easily get 750 to 800 on Bumblebees without them being on the market for long at all, and these are small breeders, so how it is that his price were driving down by the big breeders? I don't know, I have nothing against anyone here, but I hate seeing the market headed the direction its heading, and don't think its ever going to get any better unless we stop turning our head when one of our own does it and instead hold him to the same standards we hold everyone else. Maybe its that some of us are getting these deals under the table causing us to turn our heads when those deals are posted worldwide for anyone?

Like I said I saw bees for sale last fall for $750 for '08 males. Not just one ad either. :dunno: I have a bee that I paid more for, but what can you do? To me it doesn't matter who it is, Brock's name has nothing to do with it. I've never purchased anything from him and don't know if or when I would or will. :dunno: I just wish all the morphs only went down $200 in a year. What do the bees look like that he's selling? Are they top of the line hot, average or kinda ugly animals? I think there is a lot more to this than just numbers, but then again I've always believed in a graded purchase system. I don't think all animals look the same, so why should they all cost the same? Is Brock the first to post this price or is he just following somebody elses lead? :dunno: If Brock is doing this on purpose then he deserves the flack, but I just don't see it yet.

He stated he put up the list at the request from a few good customers of his...on his own site not on KS or even here matter of fact..

So this price was listed solely on his website, he didn't advertise it anywhere else?

So this price was listed solely on his website, he didn't advertise it anywhere else?

This is what I don't understand, this no attack against Brock, its just that he is the one that made these prices that we are referring to, but even if it was solely on his website, its still worldwide, not like its a private list that he sent to his good customers. If that was all it was then I wouldnt see no problem with that at all, everyone gives good customers a price break.

So why offer it there instead of in an email when Brock has so many enemies that just wait for a chance to pounce like now? I don't care about the name and what happens at shows or backroom deals either, this could be John Handcock from Washington DC for all I care...the shows are one thing and privately done deals are just that private.

Is Brock a bad evil man who is set out to destroy the BP market as we know it? Some sort of BP anti christ? I hope not but I do have to note that his pricing on his public website match the pricing on a JnJ public ad, the only one I could find in that price range...maybe wrong place wrong time but hell I would have put them at least a bit higher than that if I saw the ad...

This drama shit is boring like the bp's are, fun to look at because of all the bright colors but then it just hides away in the corner and if your lucky comes out to feed for a bit of excitement.

I didn't even know Brock had a website - let alone a price list on it. Since he wasn't posting it all over the forums with a big ol header "CHEAPEST ANIMALS IN TOWN" "BEST DEAL ON KS" I'll give him a little slack.

But really I don't see any problems with the prices -- sure I'd like them to be higher not just on Brocks site but everywhere -- I'd like to make my money back from these animals in a season not in 3 or 4 seasons -- but this is what we've been handed.

I don't think the complaining is about anyone wanting to get rich as it is just keeping the value of the snakes alive. I only get to depreciate my snake stock 5% a year on taxes but their actual value goes down 70% Where's fair in that :dunno:

As for the bees you could find them for $700ish on plenty of web sites in 08 -- everyone and their mother has pastels and spiders -- hell even JnJ are producing them -- do you seriously think they are going to remain high in value?

Supply and demand -- take it up with the idiot who told everyone you could breed a male to 12 females a season.

:cheers:

Supply and demand -- take it up with the idiot who told everyone you could breed a male to 12 females a season.

:cheers:

That is perfect right there...:cheers:

That is perfect right there...:cheers:

I second that, can't disagree on that one.

That is perfect right there...:cheers:

:rockon::rockon::rockon:

Supply and demand -- take it up with the idiot who told everyone you could breed a male to 12 females a season. :cheers:

That is perfect right there...:cheers:

AGREED! http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w267/kareo/Smileys/BeerFrau.gif

This drama shit is boring like the bp's are, fun to look at because of all the bright colors but then it just hides away in the corner and if your lucky comes out to feed for a bit of excitement.

Quote of the week right there!!!!!:lmao: Awesome Jeff.....HAHA!!


EDIT: Just saw Toshas quote on breeding a male to a bazzillion females and I think we have a well deserved tie for quote of the week! Nice one Tosha!!!

Well, Brock pulled the price list off his website....ZIP...gone.

Supply and demand -- take it up with the idiot who told everyone you could breed a male to 12 females a season.

:cheers:

I guess I am that idiot. I actually started a thread here saying that I felt the value of males was being grossly unappreciated because they have that level of breeding potential. I still think if males cost more and if breeders were not so eager to pawn them off for as cheap as possible then there would be less "crankers" out there...

Kerig I pulled the ad after all of the drama started. I am sorry that I pissed off the world again! It is funny my haters just sit and wait for me to make a mistake!

Here is the truth people. Bee's are moving at $400 wholesale. There were a ton of breeders selling them for that before I even produced one this year. They sold for $600 to $750 at shows and in the inside circles last year. Bee's have been at shows big shows like San Diego for $500 on tables. I am sorry to say this but I know what stuff is really selling for. The comment about my friends can sell bee's all day long for $750 right now is just too funny. When that happens people like Kerig will figure out someday that they paid $1000 for a snake that will cost $200 in a year. It happens people and I am sorry to say it is not me who is doing it. My 50 clutches of ball pythons this year doesn't even put a dent in this big market! I understand that I am the AnitChrist in the ball world but I like to tell it how it really is! I feel bad when someone over pays for a snake that I know MANY others are selling for cheaper! I tell my customers hey this is what so and so is selling them for. I don't want them to come back on me later and say you knew they were $500 but you still took my $1000 and you ripped me off! This market can't be priced fixed trust me the big boys tried earlier on. It backfired on them! I think it might even be illegal!

I once bought a dog ugly Enchi male for $10000 in November of 2005 from Pete Kahl. It was so ugly it looked like a normal. Two months later I found out that he had paid $5000 for the Enchi from Europe and added $5000 for himself to my price. Enchi's were $2500 each by the end of 2006. Did you hear me bitching all over the net. NO I learned a lesson and have never done business with him again. You live and you learn.

Now if I am destroying the market with 2 female Pastels and 2 female spiders that I put up then I guess this market is headed into the drain faster than I thought. Oh I gave two of those to a customer who bought three Champagne males from me last night. I take care of my customers. Hence why I do good business.

If you want to hate me go ahead. In two months someone else will take my place. Oh I am sorry in two months when I am all sold out that is when the rumors and lies about me start! I am sorry I should know the cycle by now!

Your AntiChrist

Brock

So is there a difference between an animal you buy online vs at a show? The only discount I could see at a show would be due to no shipping and cash verses paypal...maybe in your market Bees are still around $750...Id be happy to see it too..I have no dog in this fight or with you Sean...But I do think there is a difference between Show verse online verses wholesale.And somewhere in the middle is where the snake should sell for.


Pricing is always cheaper at shows, whats your point? I haven't seen Bees for 550 at any shows, and if I did see them like you said, I would think they are either sick, not eating, etc, because the market (internet) price is 700 to 800 for the most part and they ARE selling, so why put them 200 below market? No blinders here, just compare apples to apples, not internet prices to show prices, everyone marks their stuff down a little for shows, I doubt 200 buck though!

Kerig I pulled the ad after all of the drama started. I am sorry that I pissed off the world again! It is funny my haters just sit and wait for me to make a mistake!

Here is the truth people. Bee's are moving at $400 wholesale. There were a ton of breeders selling them for that before I even produced one this year. They sold for $600 to $750 at shows and in the inside circles last year. Bee's have been at shows big shows like San Diego for $500 on tables. I am sorry to say this but I know what stuff is really selling for. The comment about my friends can sell bee's all day long for $750 right now is just too funny. When that happens people like Kerig will figure out someday that they paid $1000 for a snake that will cost $200 in a year. It happens people and I am sorry to say it is not me who is doing it. My 50 clutches of ball pythons this year doesn't even put a dent in this big market! I understand that I am the AnitChrist in the ball world but I like to tell it how it really is! I feel bad when someone over pays for a snake that I know MANY others are selling for cheaper! I tell my customers hey this is what so and so is selling them for. I don't want them to come back on me later and say you knew they were $500 but you still took my $1000 and you ripped me off! This market can't be priced fixed trust me the big boys tried earlier on. It backfired on them! I think it might even be illegal!

I once bought a dog ugly Enchi male for $10000 in November of 2005 from Pete Kahl. It was so ugly it looked like a normal. Two months later I found out that he had paid $5000 for the Enchi from Europe and added $5000 for himself to my price. Enchi's were $2500 each by the end of 2006. Did you hear me bitching all over the net. NO I learned a lesson and have never done business with him again. You live and you learn.

Now if I am destroying the market with 2 female Pastels and 2 female spiders that I put up then I guess this market is headed into the drain faster than I thought. Oh I gave two of those to a customer who bought three Champagne males from me last night. I take care of my customers. Hence why I do good business.

If you want to hate me go ahead. In two months someone else will take my place. Oh I am sorry in two months when I am all sold out that is when the rumors and lies about me start! I am sorry I should know the cycle by now!

Your AntiChrist

Brock

Great post Brock, and don't let some haters give you the "anti-christ" label, and besides I think someone already openly confessed to being Satan...LMAO!

Like I tried to explain in my post and I think what Brock has said is that Ball Python prices are fluid at best! I love those anecdotal post of a buddy of a buddy of a buddy is killin' it at top dollar...... that I believe is an old RDR trick that he used when he was one of the chief proponents of price fixing which by the way is HIGHLY illegal!!! Price of a given product is a function of supply and demand....and I do believe Tosha drove home the over supply point quite well. With herps we don't have to sell our animals, we choose to do so, and if we think the prices are to low then we can choose to keep our hatchlings or stop breeding altogether and become a keeper instead of a breeder. There are lots of choices, and no gun is being held to anyones head to price BPs a certain way...... but the LAW of supply and demand is an economic science law because there is no way around it unless you engage in illegal activity to manipulate the market or you convince the government your to big to fail and they do the manipulating for you.:rolleyes:

For example I will not budge on the price of my chondros, with the exception of BLBC freinds, because I am more than happy to keep each and every one.

With the ball pythons I made a concious choice since I am tired of the drama that comes with the BP community to limit myself to a few select clutches and when it comes time to sell my surplus I will price them based on what I feel is a fair price to ask given the availability. At some point people need to look in the mirror and ask why are they doing this......because when it comes to Ball Pythons many seasoned herpers are turning their backs on them simply because the greed factor is souring what is supposed to be a fun hobby.

Now I really like ball pythons and will always keep a few just like I did in the early 90's when they were largely seen as an intro, rookie, novice, etc....snake. But man this bickering every single year about price is about as retarded as Nancy Pelosi attending an NRA convention. I believe Brock is more in touch with what things are actually sell for than some random dude saying he is selling BBs all day at $750, which really just sounds like the many tools I have heard at shows for almost 20yrs now use that line to convince somebody that their snakes are worth more than they really are. Bottom line if YOUR BPs are not selling then they are priced too high for what the average person is willing to pay. That leaves you with some choices to make, keep 'em, lower the price, hold out, wholesale 'em, or take advantage of some newb and tell him/her how rich they can get breeding ball pythons..i.e...hustle 'em!:lmao:

I also am really sick of the fact that people like prototype and wilddwarfmorphfreakfrogalicious think that we should be over charging newbs because they don't know how to get backdoor deals or haven't kissed the right arses yet. Morally that makes you two pretty bankrupt, and it leads me to believe that all you care about is the money.........lame at best! Reread your posts and thats what it looks like to me.

Man, I am so glad this is just fun and games for me.....HAHA!:rebel:

Great post Kevin! I agree with you you 100% :cheers:

So is there a difference between an animal you buy online vs at a show? The only discount I could see at a show would be due to no shipping and cash verses paypal...maybe in your market Bees are still around $750...Id be happy to see it too..I have no dog in this fight or with you Sean...But I do think there is a difference between Show verse online verses wholesale.And somewhere in the middle is where the snake should sell for.

I dont buy ball pythons nor sell or breed them but i have been to a few shows before and i have seen some big differences in online sales and show sales. the very lagr well known shows do have sells of reptiles cheaper than online and by more than just shipping prices. the smaller local shows you can buy even cheaper at alot of times. take for instance... childrens pythons.. around 175 and 200 each. i could have just bought them at the ky reptile expo for 40 bucks each?

I also am really sick of the fact that people like prototype and wilddwarfmorphfreakfrogalicious think that we should be over charging newbs because they don't know how to get backdoor deals or haven't kissed the right arses yet. Morally that makes you two pretty bankrupt, and it leads me to believe that all you care about is the money.........lame at best! Reread your posts and thats what it looks like to me.

Man, I am so glad this is just fun and games for me.....HAHA!:rebel:

That reminds me of what Sandoval said when people were ragging on his prices. He basically said that his prices are what he actually sells them for. He doesn't throw a price on them and then let the sucker newbies overpay for them, he sells them for the same price to everyone.

Kevin your post is priceless! I for one agree 100 percent. I know that new people in this hobby are supposed to be raped but come on I can't morally do that! The price that is listed and the price that stuff sells for is two completely different things.

This topic keeps coming up time and time again. Now I understand if I openly took a morph that is worth 10K and sold it for 2K. But we are talking about a Pastel female. I have yet to have someone tell me what they are honestly worth. I know of 20 plus of them that sold for $100 each last year in Daytona. I passed on them. I pass on stuff all the time. If you only knew what was offered to me. I agree Kevin the comment of my friend can sell them for $750 all day long is BS and we all know it. Truth be told I didn't know what Bee's and Spiders and Pastels were listed on KS at when I put that ad up for my friends. I am laughing because it took my haters less than one day to find it. Classic. I guess it lets me know that I am in their minds! Someone in the biz a lot bigger than me said if they are not talking about you it means that you are dead in the business. I guess this thread shows that I am truly very much alive!

Sorry people I don't want to post on this topic again.

Thanks
Brock

Check out the first picture in this thread about a recent repticon.

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?p=222466#post222466

Not trying to fan the flames just thought it was interesting in light this thread.

I once bought a dog ugly Enchi male for $10000 in November of 2005 from Pete Kahl. It was so ugly it looked like a normal. Two months later I found out that he had paid $5000 for the Enchi from Europe and added $5000 for himself to my price. Enchi's were $2500 each by the end of 2006. Did you hear me bitching all over the net. NO I learned a lesson and have never done business with him again. You live and you learn.




I've been following this thread and wasn't going to comment because it really isn't any of my business, but damn........it takes a pretty strong person to bounce back from something like that and keep on going. Hats off to you Brock. :cheers:

I just wanted to say that this thread has been really informative.

I think you need to get your prices and heart right with lord!! You rock Brock!!:cheers:

Your AntiChrist

Brock

:lmao::lmao:That makes me laugh outloud:lmao::lmao:

I am laughing because it took my haters less than one day to find it.

That is sad really, enemies watching you closer then customers...people waiting for their shot at the title I guess.

Chandler I thought you might like the AntiChrist part. It has been a rough day and it has nothing to do with this stupid thread!

Brock

Brock,
I for one appreciate you explaining your points and doing so calmy and respectfully. I have recently learned a few lessons about this biz the hard way...not with snake sales, but in other aspects of the reptile industry. It's especially hard medicine to swallow when your in your 40's! :o

-Kerig

Kerig I really appreciate your last post. I learned the hard way in this business as well. You name it and it has been done to me. I have big dogs steal my sells to buying a high dollar male that was a breeder and the guy bred it and made babies and then didn't give me one of them eventhough I paid for male in full when he did it. Just take it all in and don't jump the gun with accusations and remarks until you know what is really going on. This whole thread was started by someone with a agenda. Hell they even lied about what I had priced bee's at just to make me out to be the devil he wanted to portray.

I can tell you this though. This thread did me more good than harm I know that for a fact. My enemies will never figure it out!

Brock

Kerig I really appreciate your last post. I learned the hard way in this business as well. You name it and it has been done to me. I have big dogs steal my sells to buying a high dollar male that was a breeder and the guy bred it and made babies and then didn't give me one of them eventhough I paid for male in full when he did it. Just take it all in and don't jump the gun with accusations and remarks until you know what is really going on. This whole thread was started by someone with a agenda. Hell they even lied about what I had priced bee's at just to make me out to be the devil he wanted to portray.

I can tell you this though. This thread did me more good than harm I know that for a fact. My enemies will never figure it out!

Brock

You probally done sold them bees now hun? :lmao::lmao:

Here is the truth people. Bee's are moving at $400 wholesale. Brock

Food For thought:

They wouldnt be that inexpensive if "wholesalers " wouldnt sell them that cheap..It still hurts the market...Wholesale or not..As true wholesaleing would reqiure a buyer to by animals in lot quanties and not eaches to get that special price. Right?

Food For thought:

They wouldnt be that inexpensive if "wholesalers " wouldnt sell them that cheap..It still hurts the market...Wholesale or not..As true wholesaleing would reqiure a buyer to by animals in lot quanties and not eaches to get that special price. Right?

Exactly, wholesale is not retail prices and most of the time are NOT public knowledge.

Definition of wholesale:

adj.

1. Of, relating to, or engaged in the sale of goods in large quantities for resale

Great read, actually.

So I have a handful of bees that will be available soon. What is a fair price to list them at?

I'm not even going to say what Bees sell for in England, it'll upset you too much :)
But you would be amazed at how our prices have to follow yours, so be careful out there guys

Just my thoughts on this, everyone has the right to price his or her animals for what they like, but sometimes other smaller breeders see those prices and think that it is set in stone, causing a downward spiral in the market. Its starts with one person scared because they could not sell there offspring that week!

I put my bees up on kingsnale for 900 and males and 1000 on females, but that is me if you have good clean animals and good customer service they will sell themselves.

Just my thoughts on this, everyone has the right to price his or her animals for what they like, but sometimes other smaller breeders see those prices and think that it is set in stone, causing a downward spiral in the market. Its starts with one person scared because they could not sell there offspring that week!

I agree with that for sure, but I also think that alot of buyers out there see one or two people selling nice looking Bees, or Bees with no picture and think that is now the going price for Bees and expect to get that price or close from someone else.

I put my bees up on kingsnale for 900 and males and 1000 on females, but that is me if you have good clean animals and good customer service they will sell themselves.

I think that is a fair price for a nice Bee still. I also agree good clean animals and customer service sells animals, but the way things are right now, not many people are going to pay an extra 200 bucks atleast to get animals from someone with a little better customer service, as I am sure Brock would have good customer service as well.

I agree with that for sure, but I also think that alot of buyers out there see one or two people selling nice looking Bees, or Bees with no picture and think that is now the going price for Bees and expect to get that price or close from someone else.



I think that is a fair price for a nice Bee still. I also agree good clean animals and customer service sells animals, but the way things are right now, not many people are going to pay an extra 200 bucks atleast to get animals from someone with a little better customer service, as I am sure Brock would have good customer service as well.

Bottom line Brock didn't know the price of a Bee retale, He posted a price of wholsale for a few of his repeat customers !!

things are right now, not many people are going to pay an extra 200 bucks atleast to get animals from someone with a little better customer service, .

Why wouldnt you pay a little extra money NOW for good customer service ...If you are already spending $1000 for an animal would you send that money to someone that is questionable at best or send $1200 and know that you are going to get a good CLEAN animal no questions asked...:cool:

Why wouldnt you pay a little extra money NOW for good customer service ...If you are already spending $1000 for an animal would you send that money to someone that is questionable at best or send $1200 and know that you are going to get a good CLEAN animal no questions asked...:cool:

No, thats not what I said that last part of my quote was cut off, I am saying that I am sure Brock has good customer service, I have never purchased from him, but I doubt he would still be breeding and selling successfully if he didn't. And if you are getting good customer service then why go someone else and pay $200 more.

Bottom line Brock didn't know the price of a Bee retale, He posted a price of wholsale for a few of his repeat customers !!

I understand that, no problem, plus the list was also removed to prevent confusion, all is well, I was just responded to your thread about what you personally charge for Bees on KS, and wanted to state that in my opinion most Double CoDom mutations should still be in that price range and worth every penny.

Prototype I do agree most lower end combo's should still be priced alittle higher....About the extra $200...What I think Brad and I are trying to say is Id rather spend an extra $200 with a true breeder and with some of the wholesalers, i wont mention any names...as weve been down that road before..

Ok I don't post much as it seems to get me in trouble lol. I can say I picked up a female Bee at Pomona from a guy that will be unnamed for 650 it was a 08 at almost 500 grams and one smoker of a Bee if I ever saw one. So Brock selling a 09 male at 550 shipped isn't a big deal.

Bumble bees have been around for 8 years.

Also out the same year, pinstripes and spot noses -- both can be had for around $200 this year.

So for a double co-dom you are looking at about $400-$500 depreciated at around the same rate -- this shouldn't surprise anyone. :yessir:

Thanks Tosha and Tim. I really didnt' know that they were listed on KS for $750 each so my bad. I know that a ton of people have them and people's emotions run high on a morph that they expect to make a return on. I am sorry for all of the harm that I have caused. Breed them and make babies and you will be just fine!

Brock

Hey Brock Wagner, Ball python breeder, are you going to call me and give me the short version of this thread or is my lazy ass going to have to read it?

Matt (Double X)

Brock your the man!!!!!:rockon:

People remember we are trying to sell retail and not wholesale...:rockon:
Kevin

People remember we are trying to sell retail and not wholesale...:rockon:
Kevin


Right on Kev!!!:cheers:

Just remember I love you Kevin and Brad!

Brock

Just remember I love you Kevin and Brad!

Brock
you have a funny way of showing it!!

you have a funny way of showing it!!

oh Brockster...So you messed up...We may forgive you
Kevin

Brock I'm just pissed cause you have always charged me retail, why am I not getting all these so called great deals? I've known you for yeaaars Man.

But I charge you retail too don't I? Guess we're even...

Oz

Brock I'm just pissed cause you have always charged me retail, why am I not getting all these so called great deals? I've known you for yeaaars Man.

But I charge you retail too don't I? Guess we're even...

Oz

LMAO! Boys will be boys!

I hope I can get at least $500 for this clutch!!:lmao::lmao:
I wish everyone well even those market crashers!!JK

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u283/cbboa/Killerbees007.jpg
Thanks for looking, Brad

Well Id give you 3k...jk

[QUOTE=Brad Boa;224783]I hope I can get at least $500 for this clutch!!:lmao::lmao:

okay, but I need three months to pay them off.

[QUOTE=Brad Boa;224783]I hope I can get at least $500 for this clutch!!:lmao::lmao:

okay, but I need three months to pay them off.


Damn it I knew I forgot something......:lmao::lmao:All kidding aside it was good talking to you Oz!

Ouch my friends have turned on me!

Brock

Ouch my friends have turned on me!

Brock

Funny I felt the same way!!

What friends....seams more like enemies to me..lol

ok ladies enough grab assin' back on topic..

ok ladies enough grab assin' back on topic..

gee thanks for putting THAT picture in my head:eek: